Epson vs Canon: Clogging, Ink cost?

[dragius]

Hmmm have always used HP and i think it is still the only printer in the market that has a new print head together with every new cardtridge.

So if you rarely print maybe say once a month there will never be any worries for clogged printer ..

 

[Watcher]

Lets look at wine. What is wine actually? Basically it's grape juice from grapes that are grown on cheap land and harvested by dirt cheap labour. How much technology is involved in this? You probably need a couple of tracktors and in some vineyards they just get the townsfolk to step on the grapes to get the juices out. Think about it. What is vintage wine? Basically it's wine that you store for extended periods in a cellar. Big deal. That's why wine costs less than ink.

Cheap land and dirt cheap labour? You obviously has not drank good champaign before. Check out the land prices for the various vineyards around the world, the cost of production and labour.

It is because there is risk in growing and manufacturing the wine. A good vintage cannot be "extended" with more of the same. Unlike manufacturing of a known chemical, it cannot be mass produced and controlled production. That is the key. The cost of getting a good vintage is rare, risky and expensive. An example: if the weather is bad, an entire year's crop is gone. Can you control the weather?

When you compare this to the mass manufacturing of inks, there is no risk as you control all aspects of the production. In fact, the repeatability of the manufacturing process makes it cheaper, with the economy of scale in the raw material and manufacturing process.

If it is just grape juice, let me buy 10 litres of it... You find for me someone who will make that into just 1 litre of vintage champaign .

The profit margins for the inks, by the way, is about 500-1000% That means after the subtracting the cost of manufacturing including depreciation, labour and material, they earn about that percentage.

 

[lazarus_lauw]

Hello,

Why bother the fact about the OEM ink cost that is high? Even we do not understand why, Epson, HP, Lexmark, Sharp, Xerox, Brother ... there are many others competing to each other already, yet they are still maintaing the high standard price of inks.

But we can choose to print smart, there are many alternatives cheaper inks and paper on the market out there which are wallet friendly. You can choose what you want: (1) a premium price for OEM quality print, (2) a fair price for excellent 3rd party ink/paper, or (3) a cheap price for cheap 3rd party quality ink/paper... It is your choice!

Believe me, I know there are growing number of smart people who don't care about the expensive OEM ink. They enjoy the cheap price of excellent quality and hi-performance inkjet printer, by doing a smart printing... Choosing the the above option 2.

Ask Inknovation for smart printing the inkjet way... @ Funan The IT Mall #05-41, a specialty shop in inkjet saving solution for everyone.

 

[yaoxing]

Sadly, InkNovation's colours are not as accurate as the original Epson ink. Otherwise I would have started using it.

 

[Neo]

Hi guys,

Do try to chill out... no need to get into such heat discussions. Try to look at it this way... it's all about creative marketing. For example, the telcos can offer handsets at very subsidized prices because you are locked into their contract for 2 years. The same happens for the printers... you might be happier if you can see that you're buying the machines at "subsidized" prices in the manufacturer's view that they can still make money from the inks. Surely no company will manufacture products and not expect to make money right?

Now... if you say that they're making supernormal profits (in economics terms), do consider that it's the whole operation they have to consider, not just making the printer. It's the R&D, tooling and manufacture in totality, not just making the printer in China or Indonesia. If we consider that just 15 years ago, a lot of us were using dot matrix printers, it's really a wonder that we can achieve such photographic results from our desks today. If we were to bring the "overcharged" argument to software development, what will we be saying about Microsoft and Adobe? We all know that it costs less than 50 cents to make a CD... :think:

Anyway, from my calculations after printing more than 200 A4 prints, the average cost is about S$2.50 per print, using original Canon ink and paper. It's comparable to the cheapest photo labs, and much cheaper than professional labs. And the convenience factor and full control over my prints makes it a no-brainer for me to print my portfolio myself.

Just my two cents, to play the devil's advocate to bring a more balanced view to the discussion. Feel free to flame... :sweat:

 

[kuoann]

Well, Neo, I don't know what else to say. I thought I already pre-empted points of view like yours and addressed them in my earlier posts.

Perhaps if Telcos didn't lock people in with anti-competitive contracts, subcriptions rates would fall further from keener competition?

As for Printer 'subsidies'... I wonder, is $599 for a printer cheap? If we benchmark it against other high-tech, high R&D computer components, would you think they are actually selling printers below cost?

Supposing that they are 'subsidizing' printers by 50%, then my new Pixma is worth >$1000. You can practiacally buy a whole computer for that money. Either printer companies haven't been pressured into making the same printer for less money, or they are pocketing big profits.

How much profit is justifiable? Again, I don't know about you, but unless you own shares in Canon/Epson/HP, I'm only concerned about how much money I can save, and not how much they can make from me. This is applied to almost everything we buy. Companies try to charge us as much as they can, whilst we try to pay as little as we can.

Again I bring up the example of mobile phone and internet prices before the industry was opened up to competition. OVERNIGHT, prices plunged by HUGE margins. How did Singtel justify extortionist prices before trade liberalisation? Would they have claimed that high prices were simply what it costs? More likely, they were just fleecing the populace because they could in the absence of competition.

Back to printers. If truth were known how much excess profit they make from paper and ink, I suspect it would far exceed the 'subsidy' of the printer price.

Ink and paper is not sold for less now because there is negligible competition from 3rd party producers. They are not sold for more, because they are limited by the devlopment labs (not charity).

As for being 'happier' with the buy now -pay later model, I don't know about you, but I always avoid that if I can. Its not healthy to your finances, and as I said, eventually, it pushes up prices for the whole consumer population.

BTW, YOU DO KNOW I'M ARGUING FORTHE SAKE OF ARGUEMENT'S SAKE, RIGHT? As you say, no need to get to hung up about this. But since I started this already, its interesting to see how other people think.

 

[Neo]

Hi Kuoann,

I've read your post, and I'm not trying to bring up the same points here. What I'm saying is that your phone price is what it is because it has been subsidized by the telco. So the telco absorbs part of the cost in the hope that you'll spend on calls later for them to make the money. The same goes for printers. Is this a good thing? I'd say it is for most of us. Let me pitch another pricing concept here... say Canon/Epson/HP sell its printer at $600 instead of the usual $199 printer price. Then you can buy really cheap inks at SEPOM prices.

The problem with this model is that everyone bears the blunt of technology development right from the start. So even if you're a occasional user (like most users), you'll be paying the same sky-high flat rate. With the current model, users who use more (like me) will pay more. However, given the alternative of a lab print, I'm still willing to pay for a inkjet print because it's still competitively priced compared to lab prices.

Don't get me wrong... I'd love lower prices any day... and I do hate those balloon-scheme payments that actually got so many people into trouble when they defaulted on the increasing payments over the years. However, I do feel that this scheme actually has benefits for majority of the users.

As for anti-competitive practices and such, I'm not in the position to comment. Unless Canon, Epson and HP engage in anti-trust behaviour and forms a cartel to dictate prices, it's not fair to point fingers at them now. And given the ultra strict anti-trust regulations and governing trade bodies in US and Europe, there's virtually no chance that they're doing so. Heh heh... one just need to look at how they slash each other's prices... difficult for such bitter enemies to work together!

Any how, it's a very open market and every buyer can easily find the prices of the inks before he/she choose to purchase the printer. In addition, there exists so many third-party inks in the market, so consumers can choose to buy them too. If a consumer choose not to buy third-party because they're deemed inferior, then it's a case where the R&D makes a difference in the quality. So a difference (whether perceived or real) will lead a consumer to pay more... which is the case for most products.

I'm speaking as a paying customer... but do feel free to flame my view... :sweat:

 

[kuoann]

Yes, of course telcos KNOW you'll HAVE to subscribe to their service since its no longer your choice once you sign on. My point is that this discourages competition precisely because you can't switch so often, and the result is that you get a cheaper phone, but perhaps disproportionately higher subscription fees, which may FAR offset the phone subsidy.

I see you point about averaging the cost of ownership. Same as the lower PARF but higher ERP tax. However, I suspect that unless printer companies show the truth of their high printer prices, they won't experience the consumer disdain and pressure to lower those prices. This is bad for us in the long run. If printers are too expensive, people will simply go to the labs. The loss of business for printer companies will spur them to become more effiecient or less greedy.

I'd love for petrol companies to scrap their loyalty progams and give price cuts right up front. Customers will simply choose the cheapest station and thus pressure companies to offer ever lower prices.

Buying a printer for cheap is like a loyalty program. I can't switch once I commit. And I'm shackled to whatever price the printer company chooses to set.

Its like signing your eternal soul to the devil for a lifetime of priviledge.

That you find home printing competitive comapred to labs is precisely my point, and besides my point. Yes, its compeitive because they CAN'T charge more than the labs. YET, one wonders if inkjet technology should intrinsically be cheaper?

eg: You could make a IDD call at premium rates, or you could make a IP call. It would be madness to suggest that if some telco charged you the same for an IP as their IDD, you'd feel happy that you were not being overcharged.
In other words, I suspect that printing the photo with inkjets should be an intrinsically cheaper technology than labs.

BTW, I don't think governments around the world are that naive. Many rules get passed only when they suit the government. Vice versa, it may be in the government's interest to see certain companies do well.
Now, if you really wanted to, you could legislate that Printer Makers release tech details of their print heads to 3rd party manufacturers so that they will be on an equal footing to develop competant inks and thus provide effective comptetion. Let the best man win. However, in reality we protect the Big Boys for whatever reasons and this will never happen.

You don't have to tell me why a price differential exists between branded vs 3rd party inks. There is a real quality difference. HOWEVER, this is artificial, and stems from a lack of competition. 3rd party manufacturers will always find it difficult to produce an equally good ink because they do not have the design inside knowledge of the print head dynamics and thus cannot present an effective competition.

 

[Zplus]

Geee... i thought its about ink costs.... :dunno:

Anyway, in order of cheapness
1) OEM CIS ink
2) OEM ink cartridge
3) Lab prints
4) Canon ink
5) Epson ink

That's as far as I know... also lab prints last pretty long too.

 

[Darkhorse]

I really sympatise with all the epson users who have the clogging problem. I got a C63 to try..my first epson! and while the prints were nice but same prob, infrequent will result in clogged heads imagine my shock when after cleaning the nozzle for abt 4-5 times, my brand new inks were all down to abt half the tank! Worse of all, the printheads are still clogged!!!!

Pardon the complaining, but I would like to ask if anyone has any easier manual way of cleaning the printheads compared to the ones stated here:
http://www.eddiem.com/photo/printer/unclog/unclog.html as it seems really complex :think:

Would appreciate if anyone can share their cleaning experiences, if any, on the C63 model. Thing is how to get to the printhead?

 

[shioks76]

I'm one of the epson victims too.After about 1 week of idle time, the inkhead starts to clog. Have to print about 8 - 10 photos b4 the clogging goes off. Waste paper and ink. That was the epson 830. I have lots of colleagues with the same problem.

Just switched to the canon ip 3000 a week ago. Much better print quality, and no clogging so far. Extremely satisfied.

 

[Darkhorse]

Man....looks like Canon's the way to go :think:

I think I'll try the window cleaner thing on my epson C63! (budget printer but cannot let it die so soon!) :nono:

If I'm not wrong the idea's to put a few drops on the spongepad where the inks resides during off position right?
So i assume the window cleaning solution will evaporate by itself? Or do I also have to soak it up or something?

Anyone has an idea? :dunno:

 

[Neo]

Be careful when using such drastic measures on your printer... the printhead is extremely fragile... and the nozzles are microscopic... so make sure your cloth does not leave fibres that will potentially damage the printhead further.

 

[chenchengcai]

i also have the same clogged print head experience with epson many years back. terrible.

now i have a old model canon printer which i can take out the entire print head together with ink cartridges, and store inside a storage container provided.

i only print like once every 3 months and the clogged problem did not exist due to keeping in the storage container.

wanted to get an epson photo R800 / 2100 but very worried the same problem comes back!

 

[COBALT]

i also have the same clogged print head experience with epson many years back. terrible.

now i have a old model canon printer which i can take out the entire print head together with ink cartridges, and store inside a storage container provided.

i only print like once every 3 months and the clogged problem did not exist due to keeping in the storage container.

wanted to get an epson photo R800 / 2100 but very worried the same problem comes back!

Hello,

just some input.....i used the low end epsons ( less than S$100) and the ink head clogged after i failed to change the ink within a few days...decided to dump it.

However, the higher end Epson 2100...even though ive not printed in 2 weeks...the head doesnt clog.

Rest easy...im sure you pay for what you get. Besides...you're getting the best ink in the market...archival quality..good enough for museums..of course the paper you choose and how you treat them is important.


As for some people saying CANON's colors are more vivid...i will say.. you need to practice your Photoshop skills to enhance the colors to your likings..


cheers!

 

[Darkhorse]

Be careful when using such drastic measures on your printer... the printhead is extremely fragile... and the nozzles are microscopic... so make sure your cloth does not leave fibres that will potentially damage the printhead further.

Tks for advice but also to verify, do I actually need to soak up the 'windex' after I put a few drops on the spongepad where the head resides? If not then I just put a few drops and not touch it with any cloth thus eliminating any worry of fibres?

 

[Neo]

Hi Darkhorse,

Sorry, can't give you any professional advice here as I've never done it before. I've been fortunate... the few stuck nozzles I ever had was easily resolved by a couple of simple print head cleaning using the software driver.

 

[jjch_sg]

use CISS! I have an Epson R310 (bought at S$130+ at a sales in BEST) and a S$120 CISS system (bough in the last computer show in Expo). Self-install the CISS system. It works great. No need to worry about ink cost, refill is S$10 for 100ml (still about the price of champaign but 20x cheaper than Epson cartridge). So far, no clogging, no paper jam problem. I am still using the ink that comes with the CISS system.

 

[jsbn]

IMHO, i think epson clogs so readily becos they use pgiment inks?
coupled with the race to produce the smallest ink drop thus narrowing the ink dispensing nozzle..

I own a C63 and I must agree.. the head clogs bad.. i seldom print.. and when i do.. the first print is always a waste...

I just bought my girlfriend an iP1500 (cheapest printer to offer 2pl droplets..) loaded an unprocessed pic from a camera(20D). used a 3rd party glossy paper and...

*TEST FIRE! TEST FIRE!*

woah.. great print man..:bigeyes:

Now i'm tempted to switch over to canon. Maybe consider the iP5000, 2 pay days down... :lovegrin:

Wait for those IT Show, Canon usually has got lotsa good deals (usually in the form of trade-ins and freebies) on.

Of cos, if u got time, go SLS and look-see, look-see. U might get some unexpected deals.

 

[davy]

The curse of Epson (C62):
My Epson C62 printer started to give me trouble about six months after purchasing it so I contacted Epson, after a few tests with their technical team and after wasting a vast amount of ink from their genuine ink tanks I was advised to take it to a local Epson dealer. "Print heads" said the dealer as though I had been printing on sandpaper....! He duly give me a replacement and literally threw the C62 straight into the nearest bin, I repeat " threw it", the replacement was of course minus the ink tanks and when I got home minus the guarantee and receipt of purchase documents.

The problem was black lines on picture with a yellow cast about 1" from the left hand side and along the bottom of the picture, as though in a frame. The normal black & white text consisted of either blue or red straight lines through the text - sometimes these were broken, the lines could not have been more straighter if a ruler had been used with a coloured pen. The higher the settings in the printer on-screen driver settings made matters more worse.

The replacement printer has started to produce exactly the same effects. I had to contact Epson several times before getting a response. I expect to get at least 12 months of trouble free service from a brand new purchase (excluding print head cleaning), certainly not the case here.

The printer is nothing but a "noisy ink guzzler", it consumes ink at an alarming rate - even if it is not being used, and regularly goes through a cleaning routine when powered up, when it is working correctly the print quality is acceptable as a general purpose all round printer. The cartridges are not exactly cheap either, the 'Intellichip' as I believe Epson calls it, to you and me the 'chipped cartridges' is a sales gimmick to boost the Epson cartridge sales - BE WARNED it does not monitor the amount of ink in the tanks BUT only ESTIMATES the amount of ink remaining by presumably counting down the number of times the heads are ‘in operation’ - there is no direct feedback or monitoring between the chip and the ink level (as in a petrol/oil/water level gauge as in a car).

To be honest, purchasing a set of cartridges for an Epson, one could purchase a Lexmark printer complete with cartridges every time you wanted a 'refill'. My advice when buying a printer is keep away from 'Chipped Cartridges' and Epson’s peizo print heads, I am now beginning to think that 'long life peizo heads' is also another sales gimmick - basically like a crystal in an oscillator stage of a receiver or transmitter, the heads are vibrating to squirt the ink and crystals do crack when driven hard, if this is the actual fault I can not say, another thing I suspect is the sealing around the head where it’s clamped to the base unit (like that of a picture in a mounting frame.

The help I got from Epson was only on the first occasion, they did not want to know the second time around, why is it that two identical products developed the same faults….

The local dealer has now stopped repairing Epson printers - says a lot

No more Epsons for me…!


Is the ip5000 worth the extra $$$ or £££ over the ip4000?

Davy