shinken said:Just curious. Are you a wedding photographer by any chance? I mean, either as a freelance or full-timer?
zoossh said:actually i feel the same way as him (waileong).
not just that as competitors doing undercut, somehow and understandably professional photographers dun like to have to spend extra or even frustrating efforts from couples only looking for cheaper deals and using those cheaper photographers as an excuse, and also dun like to be compared (unfairly) with the latter or even friends helping in wedding photography who took the same angle after them, making the couples compariing similar shots and wondering why the pros are paid much higher when the learners took the same angle.
that feeling is understandable, with the volume of frustration that is being poured out. the only thing i noticed is that the level of pride upheld and a denial of being threatened or fear of being compared with in the mindset of "i'm better, so why should i be afraid of anything"..... but i believed in seeing it from multiple point of views, that including understanding of couples who cannot afford more than $2k for their wedding shots but still hope they can have beautifully shot pictures and that they may not understand how much they should pay (honestly who would know? everyone almost just get married once, without much prior experience unless they are wedding planners. only professionals know it well). i also believed in seeing it from the viewpoint of the starters or those just helping out with their relatives or friends - they have their difficulty, dilemnas and frustrations too.
and i believe that photographers who sees and shoots the most beautiful and most meaning thing in life should be nice ppl too, so it sometimes can be slightly upsetting to see the subtle hostility that comes in when business is in view.
p.s. i'm not a wedding photographer but have some little puny experience before. so no conflicts of interest. just sharing my thoughts from a non-professional point of view. i admit that i'm still not in any position to judge the professionals who are more experienced and faces probably more frustration that what i can imagine.
shinken said:there will always be undercutters. Some pros will suffer and will retaliate by joining the undercutters. These people will realise after some time they are either making a loss, or are doing too much for too little money. These people will leave the industry. New undercutters will join the industry, and the cycle continues.
I think...zoossh said:likewise undercutters will "either making a loss, or are doing too much for too little money", and probably more so becos they lack the resources and knowledge to cheaper resources, and so likewise they are unlikely to stay in the industry as much as those who price down to join them. what do you think?
shinken said:But at some point, they'll suddenly be struck with the awareness that "for a 16 hour job which is not just thankless, I still get so many complaints and unrealistic expectations, and I have only earned $X???"
shinken said:I didn't ask to refute or agree with waileong.
Vince asked "what is the real reason to keep pressuring him/her to raise his prices?", Gilbert replied "the real reasons is the cost of running the business!"
Then Waileong said
"The real reason is because some photogs feel the pain of being undercut by people they consider to be inferior to them.
The real reason is that they feel this undercutting is unfair.
The real reason is that they feel that part-timers and freelancers are ruining the market for them."
I found it interesting for Waileong to speak on behalf of professional photographers and dispute Gilbert's opinion. Vince's question was simple enough. What's the pressure to increase prices. Gilbert's was straightforward enough. Cost of running a business. But Waileong's dispute seems totally off-topic. Maybe he was talking about why (pro) photogs said what they said. But nevertheless, I feel that he's going off-topic in what may be perceived (probably mistakenly) to be a somewhat aggressive stance towards pro photogs.
Pro Image said:Now I see why there are so many suckers in the market who can virtually earn more $$$$$ than ruining themselves by earning less. I didn't know there is still such people around in Singapore. Very rare.....very rare indeed........happy to earn less money........
We were never worried in the first place of any undercutters. I did not know that when we try educated some new photographers to earn more money would turn out to be the a let down. I don't think we were imposing our ideals. I think it was still more of helping them as we were once a newbie as well. We were taught not sell our service too low.
vince123123 said:If the people who wish to undercut are perfectly happy with their profit margin and are able to keep their costs to a level sufficient to give them a happy profit margin, then there isn't any real need to pressure him/her to raise his prices.
Winsonapm said:Newbies or undercutters, learn from the Pros. Benchmark yourself with the top and the best, develop your style, quality, marketing, pricing, etc. Free advices on CS, don't fight good intent, never argue with monies. Do well and stay in the business, for passion and for money.
There are 20K weddings a year? 100 pros? 200 semi-pros? The market is big enough for all.
Kind thoughts
Buy more coffee table books from me:bsmilie:
smurfman said:i only got two hands to shoot a wedding per day, so not worry undercutters.
Pro Image said:But I thought you hate shooting weddings?:sticktong
Pro Image said:hehe....so anyone undercut your coffee table books price?????:bsmilie:
Winsonapm said:Nick Shifu, thank you for asking. Unlike Wedding Photography, the entry barrier is high. Ive no doubt that the competition will happen soon. In fact, were creating a bit of a headache for current providers for photo albums. With our prices, well be seen as an undercutter. For the smaller set-up using color printers or copiers, the quality is unrivalled. As your vendor, you do not mind me spoiling the market, right?
Competition is healthy, be it quality, price or service. Helps to improvise and improve. I would like to feel that weve creating a standard for our competitors to follow.:think:
When are you getting your samples printed? Would be my honors printing for you, this thread was a key reason in our offering this service to Wedding Photogs. :thumbsup:
Max 2.8 said:Winson,
Pro image is not Nick Goh,Nick Goh is Enchanted. Pro image is Danny.
Winsonapm said:Wah Paiseh! Got all the pros mixed up with nick and names, sorry for the embarassment.
Must go down to kowtow for apologies and give very special discounts.
Max, thank you for the correction.
Kind regards