Sigma and warranty issues, the facts

[bernardsia]

lucky you wibawa. if you read the first few posts of the thread. you'll see there has been instances where buyers were not told. I asked about warranty. But the information was not presented.

Gray items is not a photography specific term. I don't see why newbies to photography will have problems grasping what it would mean.

 

[szekiat]

Bernard, if you will just revisit the previous thread on TCW, you will find that i have broken down the Consumer Protection Act as it would apply to the scenario.

 

[szekiat]

To make things easier for everyone, i've copied it over. This is both an interpretation of the act but more on basic contract law.

Under the terms stated on the warranty card, the card needs to be stamped in order for it to be valid.
If the warranty card had not been stamped, as is the case, the onus is on the customer to ensure that the card is in order before buying (ie: accepting the offer of sale; contract). The law does not protect customers who have merely made a bad deal, eg. if they fail to ensure that everything is in order. Had the customer noticed that the card had not been stamped when it should have been, he should have brought up the issue of warranty with the shop, which he didn't on the spot or later on.
BTW, misrepresentation can only be argued if the buyer finds that he has acquired something COMPLETELY different from what he originally contracted for. In this case, there is still a warranty for the product and a warrantee from the seller is not considered a completely different thing in substance than that from the agent and the seller never made a representation that the warrantee would be covered by the agent.
Even though the shop cannot withhold vital information from the seller, in this case the shop is entitled to assume that reasonably well informed members of the SG photog community would know of its reputation as a "grey goods" dealer, as has been shown here. Even if you claimed that you are not one of these ppl, as you have, the shop is entitled to claim that you should have been alerted by the fact that the price was cheaper. As mentioned, the savings was there, if not significant.

 

[Parchiao]

As for buyer beware advice. I guess that is what where the Consumer Protection Bill might give some directions.

I don't think it has anything to do with the specifics in the second schedule, more like section 4. How it works in reality is a different matter.

 

[Tigger]

It is your responsibility to ask. The warranty of anything that you buy differs from the place you buy, the brand you buy etc. There is no need to twist and turn facts. Was this asked specifically? Obviously not.

To what extend should the consumer ask??! I am furious over such attitude. :angry:

Quoting my aunt experience. She bought a Canon IXUS4 from a shop that quote her, well, $50 cheaper than list price. Upon payment, upon checking all the staff, she asked "where is the warranty card"? then only the sales man told her it is without any warranty, and if she wanted warranty, she got to top up $50, no refund possible.

If she would know she need to pay list price to get the warranty, she would go for other shop that offer better deal with warranty, probably $10 - $20 cheaper! How would you expect an auntie to know people does sell stuff without warranty? To them warranty is something natural!

Also, my friend bought a walkman few years back, was quoted about $80 cheaper than other shop. Upon payment, the sales man told him it is "made in Malaysia" and quality is not as superior as Japan made. He brought out another set, completely the same, test the effect to convince my friend that there were indeed different. Want made in Japan? Pay original price. We only to find out much later from another friend working in audio shop they can actually twick the walkman to make it sound very lousy. They are essentially the same product, same made.

It's consumer responsibility to ask?? How many question can the consumer anticipate from the creative cheat??

 

[Parchiao]

Ask as much as possible, it is your right to know what you are paying for. If the salesmen are not helpful, buy elseswhere.

In my opinion,

The first example demonstrates how NOT to buy. If the warranty is a factor to the purchase, it should be clarified before the purchase is made. The salesman can claim that your aunt did not ask about warranty, that they did not know it is important to her purchase decision. If the warranty is indeed important, would it not be the first few questions to ask next to the price? I can't comment on the no refund policy. Bear in mind that warranties differ from the place of purchase, the item in question and the brand that you are buying.

The second example is just plain fraud, going by what you say. But in any case, if the country of assembly/make is important, it should have been determined at the point of inspection, definitley before the purchase.

 

[dbcs]

Regarding warranty issues, I frankly don't see the big deal about checking the warranty. Come on people, is it that difficult to ask if it matters so much to you? Take any other product, there must be some onus on the consumers to check. You would scrutinise the lens for dust or defect. What not just ask about the warranty?

It's like blinding assuming that a "new" item would be flawless and unblemished. Even when buying from CP, I would check the item as I have seen several people mishandling the gear and not buying it in the end. If I bought something without checking and it turns out to be faulty, I would only have myself to blame. A reputable shop would change it within a reasonable time. If the shop exercises the not refundable/exchangable clause on the receipt, even if there is warranty, most of us would be unhappy over a repair job.

I would draw the line when misrepresentation occurs - that the shop, when asked misleads the buyer. In the case of TCW, I doubt it was ever the case. I thought the example of the 50mm 1.4 was to TCW's credit that they would even be willing to refund cash.

On the issue of grey items. I appreciate the available of choice. It's like having immediate savings over a small risk. Just be more careful in checking the item. In the case of TCW, it's not like there is no warranty. If it's faulty, there is at least two options: pay for repair (it's not like the manufacturer won't repair a grey set - besides, you already gained the initial savings) or get TCW to fix it. If they can't, they may even pay for the repair themselves or get it replaced for you.

On a slightly separate note, let me share an unhappy incident over B & S here. I bought an item from a CSer who claimed that he had close to 1 year warranty with a valid warranty card. I checked the card and it had a stamp from MS Color. However when I checked with the manufacturer, the warranty is only valid with a receipt. When I contacted the CSer over the receipt, he said he will send it but till today, I have yet to get it from him and he is totally uncontactable.

So, for those of you potential buyers from B & S or otherwise, do be aware of common warranty practices and check the terms and conditions of the warranty if you are paying a premium for the guarantee.

 

[bernardsia]

Thanks for all the constructive comments and also to the trolls who just want a fight.

Let us make a clear differentiation between, having an avenue to buy gray products at a cheaper price. And a shop selling unsuspecting consumers gray products by withholding vital information. The two scenerios are very different things altogether.

In the case of the 50mm 1.4, it's the exact scenerio I was in. Look at my point in the last paragraph. If the buyer was looking to buy a gray set to save a few dollars. Fair enough. But that isn't the case. I imagine he got his money back and bought a proper warrantied set across the road. The point? TCW made the deal by withholding vital information. If this infomation had been offered prior, there would have been no deal at all. This is not an expected scenerio, it's should be criminal.

 

[szekiat]

Thanks for all the constructive comments and also to the trolls who just want a fight.

Let us make a clear differentiation between, having an avenue to buy gray products at a cheaper price. And a shop selling unsuspecting consumers gray products by withholding vital information. The two scenerios are very different things altogether.

In the case of the 50mm 1.4, it's the exact scenerio I was in. Look at my point in the last paragraph. If the buyer was looking to buy a gray set to save a few dollars. Fair enough. But that isn't the case. I imagine he got his money back and bought a proper warrantied set across the road. The point? TCW made the deal by withholding vital information. If this infomation had been offered prior, there would have been no deal at all. This is not an expected scenerio, it's should be criminal.

Unfortunately, the law is not on your side bernard. I never said that you were out to look for gray products specifically, merely that you were out to get a good deal. This would show that you had already done your research on what the RRP should be. As such the law does not protect you if upon finding a cheaper offer, you do not confirm if the product is different from what you want. You were not coerced into a contract, nor did they make a false claim about the product. You claim that TCW has withheld vital information from you, but the truth is, they can claim that they did not know it was vital to you. In their defense they can claim that since they have a proper service and support department, they feel that where the warranty is from is not vital. And unfortunately, it is an acceptable claim, unless you can proof that their service and support is inferior to that of the agent. The deal might not have been made if the information had been given but at the same time, the information was not sought. There was no smoke and mirrors involved on their part. About your nikon lens, i think you will note that TCW has never claimed to be an authorized dealer for nikon products or sigma products. They did not try to act as one either. They blatantly left the warranty card invalid, and as such it is just another piece of paper.
Tigger, it is indeed unfortunate what has happened to your aunt and your friend. In the case of your aunt, it is the same as above. She went for a cheaper deal without suspecting anything. The shop can claim in its defense that the reason the set was cheaper was because it had no warranty. Your aunt made the mistake of checking after purchasing which is bad practice on the side of the buyer. You did not examine the terms of the contract before agreeing to it. Tough luck says the law, bad practice on the part of the shop says me. In the case of the walkman, the seller did point out a discernable difference between the 2 sets, that of their country of origin. He therefore justified that by the higher price. Your friend agreed that there was a sound quality difference between the 2 sets too. The shop keeper said it was due to the make of the product and your friend DID NOT refute. Your friend made the final decision. It was only later that he was informed that the sound difference was not due to the product being made in different places. To put it bluntly, who is to say this source of information is correct? Unfortunately, while i agree that it is probably the case, you have no legal backing in your grieviances.
Bernard, i would advice you to seek advice from someone with legal training and then pursue the matter legally if you have firm ground. Currently, you are throwing the name of TCW up in a public forum when from my point of view you have no case. As such you are slandering them. That is dangerous ground. I, as well as everyone else i am sure, appreciates your concern for the consumer. It is good to hear that Sigma offers such great service and more importantly, your warning that we should all beware when buying stuff. But honestly, throwing words like criminal around is threading on thin ice.

 

[Parchiao]

Thanks for all the constructive comments and also to the trolls who just want a fight.

This is not an expected scenerio, it's should be criminal.

Me thinks you just want a fight, with TCW, and that is you sole purpose for this thread.

 

[hongsien]

The thing I learned here is that Nikon can learn from Sigma about the warranty issues, I really hope thay would change this 'strategy' of selling digital products with local warranty only, and lenses with international warranty (for official sets)......its also a good point TCW refunded in the case of the 50mm/1.4 lens, if a person is looking around for a good price, he/she already knows the current price and when a good low price comes along, he/she should know that there must be areason why it is priced that low. Just assuming it still has official warranty, is silly, nothing is free in this world............anyway, with lenses (non IS and non-Virtual Reality lenses) there is no worry about sending them to non official repairers.......Nikon Shriro SG doesn't have the best repairers anyway I found out myself.....

Hong Sien

 

[dkw]

Thanks for all the constructive comments and also to the trolls who just want a fight.

Let us make a clear differentiation between, having an avenue to buy gray products at a cheaper price. And a shop selling unsuspecting consumers gray products by withholding vital information. The two scenerios are very different things altogether......

The point? TCW made the deal by withholding vital information. If this infomation had been offered prior, there would have been no deal at all. This is not an expected scenerio, it's should be criminal.

Hi Bernard,
not trying to fight with you, truthfully , but I totally disagree with you on this point. There is absolutely no legal obligation for the shop to tell you up front any specifics about the warranty. If you had asked the specific question, and they had mis-represented the warranty, then it is a different story, but good luck trying to prove it!

Having said that, I really think it is silly for TCW to omit that information for EVERY customer. They actually provide excellent service and could well do without this type of negative publicity. If they lose a few customers, so be it. If anything, I suspect there may be quite a few folk, who having gone in intially without the expectation of buying a 'grey' item, walked out happily with full knowledge of the terms and grateful for some savings, IF it had been presented up front. If I were in your shoes, I would be hopping mad too, and would swear off TCW forever.

Anyhow, glad to know the Sigma agent is quite generous, now THAT'S the way to do business!

Cheers,

 

[acidbyte]

I've e-mailed SIGMA yesterday and today i've received the reply. See below:

"Dear Mr Ong

We are sorry to learn of your predicament. TCW is not our authorised dealer.

All our products delivered to our authorised dealers are accompanied with a warranty card bearing our company stamp.


Regards
S H Tan (Miss)
Sigma Marketing (Singapore) pte Ltd"

So i guess the SIGMA lenses at TCW are parallel imports (?) :think:

 

[sumball]

I learnt the word "grey or gray" in CS. Say if I dunno anything about grey or gray and heard from my friend that TCW sells cameras at cheaper price, waht will I do? I will approach them and ask for the quatation. Since it is $50 (for example) cheaper than the shop crossing the road, I will buy from them. Of course, in my situation, I will not never know about grey or white or black, I will think the lens, camera I bought is the same condition as other shops in Singapore elsewhere. Is it true?

p/s: will you do a lot of research on the shop if you are buying a TV, I will just do the research on the TV itself, not the shop.

 

[bernardsia]

Okay guys the last few posts are especially helpful. A big lesson learned here, bad sale doesn't just happen in a dodgy shops. If warranty is important or unsure. Ask in detail. In this case just one more question will have pushed the dirt to the surface. While it was not standard procedure for me to stare at the salesman and ask 'AGENT WARRANTY?!'. From now on I will.

On the legal issues. I had never pretended to know or claim anything in concrete. I was seeking a discussion all the while. It's obvious I have very limited knowledge on such matters, if I have any at all. I don't have the intention to study on the subjects, since I lack the intrest. I also do not lack good solicitors.

For those who picked up the fight part. Sorry I generalized that statement. It was really for Parchiao alone. I guess I am mean by kicking a retard in the face. But what the heck.

Unless anybody else has got another point of view. Or maybe a different incident with TCW or other shops. This thread is probably past it's usefulness.

 

[TMC]

It just sounds like a tourist shop tactic to me, didnt ask, don't tell. At least they are gracious to refund you if you realize that within an acceptable timeframe.

But you can't expect everyone to be savvy/smart shopper right? that's assumption as well already. and most shoppers as a notion that the salesperson is obligated to tell them everything about the product that they are buying. Wouldn't be fair to place all the responsibility on the buyer. in this case, buyer neglected to ask, seller assumed they knew and didn't tell. guess both sides would have to take some responsibility.

 

[bernardsia]

I learnt the word "grey or gray" in CS. Say if I dunno anything about grey or gray and heard from my friend that TCW sells cameras at cheaper price, waht will I do? I will approach them and ask for the quatation. Since it is $50 (for example) cheaper than the shop crossing the road, I will buy from them. Of course, in my situation, I will not never know about grey or white or black, I will think the lens, camera I bought is the same condition as other shops in Singapore elsewhere. Is it true?

p/s: will you do a lot of research on the shop if you are buying a TV, I will just do the research on the TV itself, not the shop.

You will find the word cropping up very often. I don't know it's origins, how it really came about and which group of people popularized it. I guess it's companion terms that describe the same thing includes PI, water goods and export sets.

Frankly, If I want to buy a TV, I would just go to the shop and buy one with the features I want and get some advice from the salemen. It's probably because of my lack of intrest in the underlying technology.

Currently my hot intrest in Photography is not that hot anymore. the latest great intrest for me is diving. I will be reading up less on photogear and happenings from now on. There is a possibility I will walk into a gear shop less armed with 'knowledge' in the near future. This doesn't mean others like myself are stupid. There is just so many things and hobbies one has got time for. Reading forums can be very time consuming. When you have so many hobbies, it's difficult if not impossible to follow everthing in great detail.

 

[sofunny]

it is not the fault for both sides.

TCW, is a shop sells grey sets, or imported set provide shop warranty. but we cannot assume every customer knows that. B&H also sells imported items, but they state very clear on their web site, which one is US warranty, which one is import item.
i also bought lens from TCW, since they sell with a lower price, and i do not think the product will face any problem during 1 year, then why not? and one good thing is maybe after the warranty expired, the service charge from TCW maybe lower than the original service provider, NIKON or CANON.
you pay what you get. so I suggest for the buyers, we need understand this.
shop warranty is still one kind of warranty. the shop does not cheat the customers without providing any warranty. i think you choose to buy from TCW but not CP is because of the attractive price.

But for the buyers, since TCW has not stated the warranty in details, they may think TCW products come with original warranty. everyone will feel uncomfortable, if they just know the truth after the bring back the gears home. as TCW is a well-known shop, i suggest TCW should add one piece of paper inside the product box to declare their shop warranty, just like those 3rd party warranty sells on B&H (add at least one paper) to reduce own trouble. and setup own brand (for warranty) to get more reputation. :bsmilie:

i do not think TCW cheat the buyers. but TCW does not do a good job for declaring the meaning of shop warranty.

 

[obviousdude]

Shame on those of you who do not know what you are buying. Regardless of what you buy, if you don't ask and just make presumptions, only to find out that it is not as what you have expected, that makes you silly doesn't it i.e. you pay for something you don't know about OR you simply don't know the value of money enough to ensure that you spend it properly. :bsmilie:

i think we're mostly concerned with disclosure. that a shop needs to provide crucial info to its customers.

yes, there is a thing called caveat emptor, but that does not mean that shops can shirk that responsibility.

not everyone has the bandwidth to research extensively prior to buying something. and what is common knowledge to us may not be so for others.

with this new, fast paced world we live in, it is almost next to impossible to keep up with everything. imagine having to do extensive research prior to making any purchase, from a hp to a toaster to a book. there are so many product groups out there. there is a need for businesses to maintain a certain fair amount of disclosure...

it's vital. for peace of mind when making a purchase. caveat emptor can come later. businesses must do their part. we are giving them money, not the other way around.

no flames please. this is not a harsh commentary, nor a personal attack on anyone. just giving my opinions as a consumer.

 

[sofunny]

just realized, is it illeagle if import product from oveaseas, and sell locally without the import tax for none GST company?

if GST company also need to pay the import tax and claim later, right?

so the business for TCW is illeagle???