price hike again by smrt, delgro comfort?

[mlwang]

Halfmoon, I see your point. But hey, we are in Singapore leh, a place with no social safety net, and without money, it's difficult to survive. I worked in UK and US for awhile. They have safety nets in the form of doles etc. Also, they have great outdoors, where they can simply just go trekking and stuffs like that. but in Singapore, we have to make a living, raise our kids. You can't blame us for being selfish etc, afterall, we are not born with a silverspoon. .........A stable gamen can make long-term plans etc. Singapore is a small country

Saftey nets come with a hefty price to the tax payers, my European colleagues pay 40% of their pay to maintain the social security benefits. Personally I do not want to pay such hefty tax to maintain the safety nets, well selfish some may say. I would rather work and pay for my own medical benefits, and retirement funds.

I agree a stable government is very critical to small country like Singapoer, without a stable politcal climate, there will be no foreign investments. Taiwan has suffered for the past few years in economy since the unstable political situation started few years ago.

But increasing the price of public transport companies will not help to maintain stable government, in fact more people will vote against the government, to show their displeasure. If the price hike is passed, election will not be conducted this year, as the price hike and decision about IR will be too hard for the politicians to convince the voters.

But come to think of it, how many % of eligible Sporeans get to vote during general elections?

And I have not seen my MP knock at my door for more than 10 years, since my ward joined the GRC after near lost to opposition party. :think:

 

[hongsien]

The Singapore bus system and MRT system is one of the best of the world (think HK system is better, in the sense hat there are more buses, but abit more expensive for short distances), I don't understand all the hooha overhere......it is also one of the cheapest in the world! Just try to get a bus ticket in Europe, then you know.......

Hong Sien

 

[Halfmoon]

Halfmoon, I see your point. But hey, we are in Singapore leh, a place with no social safety net, and without money, it's difficult to survive. I worked in UK and US for awhile. They have safety nets in the form of doles etc. Also, they have great outdoors, where they can simply just go trekking and stuffs like that. but in Singapore, we have to make a living, raise our kids. You can't blame us for being selfish etc, afterall, we are not born with a silverspoon.

Anyway, what's wrong with PAY in power? A stable gamen can make long-term plans etc. Singapore is a small country. We can't offord to have some funny chaps making a mess of the poltitical stability in Singapore which have no raw resources to depend on. What Singapore has, over the regional countries, is a stable potitical arena and skilled manpower.

Your reasoning is because other have it, we do not, so it is ok to do it???? Not unlike we do it cos everyone else is doing it....

Funny..... you say under PAY.. SG long term is secure... how secure is it without the SOCIAL NET for unemployed people (like myself) and the aged, who sleep in the streets???? Or the SICK without money??? Poor have to prepay for electricity????

Everyone reasoning is different.... and while you think our future is SAFE in their hands long term... My long term opinion is in direct CONTRAST to you.....

If a government tell you they need to be "paid more to prevent corruption..." it is not a good sign.... only MORALLY UPRIGTH people will not be CORRUPTED... comparatively speaking.... people with principles....

Plus.. their pay will be a dead weight for tax payer to support... and these money can be put to much better use in other area... like social net, etc.... If you have a government who take in 1/5 or 1/4 of their pay.... SG economy will be in much better shape...

Also... they need a Casino for SG future... and risk social values... read today papers about the teens sex issue... and you think they can tackle the social issues from casino???

And when they restore their own PAY and hold the CPF restoration.... what type of people are they???

I vote simply by seeing the type of people making the decision.... based on this alone... it is hard to vote them... and I rather vote no one if the opposition is not at all good....

For someone who have worked in US and UK.... I feel kind of disappointed that he did not bring the good values from there, and share and spread.... and instead... have a herd mentality and do what every Singaporean does.... the safe way...

You can think whatever you like... but you SHOULD NOT say opposition ward are WORN OUT.. LOW VALUE etc... it may hold true for you... but I think these people have more COMMON SENSE than the others who have voted..... at least.... they know what they want... and they see something else instead.......

Frankly speaking.... HDB value is in DECLINE.... and how well it holds out depend on how many FT they can CON to buy/rent it before the inevitable happens.....

 

[mlwang]

The Singapore bus system and MRT system is one of the best of the world (think HK system is better, in the sense hat there are more buses, but abit more expensive for short distances), I don't understand all the hooha overhere......it is also one of the cheapest in the world! Just try to get a bus ticket in Europe, then you know.......

Hong Sien

Yes Europe transportation is expensive, but they get higher pay too. Cheap and expensive should be seen as relative term to the salary and not in absolute amount.

And cars are cheaper in Europe, Europeans can choose to drive if they dont like to pay for public transport. In Singapore, believe that majority of people do not have a choice, no $$$ to pay for COE, road tax, car, and you have to take the public transport.

I am ok with price hike, but what about those low income people who has no pay rise for the past few years?

If you read the ST today, it make a very valid point. In the past before we have competitions in the public transport, we can take a straight bus from one end of Singapore to the other.

Now we have to take a feeder service, hope to the MRT, and take a feeder service again. The price increase is hit 3 times instead of just once.

 

[Ah Pao]

Transport cost has become one huge part of my expenses. I find it is quite expensive since my income comes in no more than 3 digits.

I personally don't favour the price hike since it will hurt my pocket. However, looking at the big picture may help in understanding why the hike is being proposed.

Unfortunately, somehow the transport company's high-handedness in dealing with this price hike leaves us with no 'big picture' to see in the first place. There is no clear explaination on WHY the hike is proposed when there is enough earnings to cover the operating expenses.

They know that they are treading in sensitive ground with a price hike, and yet they do not do enough to cushion the impact of the news. People are left to speculate the reason why there is a price hike (as demostrated here in this thread).

If a proper explanation is given, there will still be dissatisifed consumers, but probably less dissatisfied.

Be it a 1-2 cents or 10-20 cents increase, I still think the company should give a proper explaination.

 

[Ah Pao]

Now we have to take a feeder service, hope to the MRT, and take a feeder service again. The price increase is hit 3 times instead of just once.

Agreed.
Either you walk...or take a direct bus that goes round and round and takes 20 minutes more than the alternative--and that bus comes in 20 minutes interval during peak hours. Sheesh...

 

[hongsien]

Yes Europe transportation is expensive, but they get higher pay too. Cheap and expensive should be seen as relative term to the salary and not in absolute amount.

And cars are cheaper in Europe, Europeans can choose to drive if they dont like to pay for public transport. In Singapore, believe that majority of people do not have a choice, no $$$ to pay for COE, road tax, car, and you have to take the public transport.

I am ok with price hike, but what about those low income people who has no pay rise for the past few years?

If you read the ST today, it make a very valid point. In the past before we have competitions in the public transport, we can take a straight bus from one end of Singapore to the other.

Now we have to take a feeder service, hope to the MRT, and take a feeder service again. The price increase is hit 3 times instead of just once.

I think you haven't seen the salaries of bus drivers in Europe, it is not that high as you may think (tax is very high too >35% although you get alot back for that money unless you are healthy ;-)).....

Also, the frequency of the buses is very, very low compared to SG (which you guys think to be low already).....yes, they should do more to inform the people why certain changes are to be made, they are no good at that.

They have to make a balance between satisfying the investors (I understand Delgro is a listed company in SG?) and serving the people needs, this is why some lines are run with no aircon. If you leave it up to private companies, these (less profitable) lines will probably be cancelled.

HS

 

[seankyh]

I think its too soon for the government to approve another change. IR just approved den this one? Don't think so. Too many controversial decisions in too short a time. They will delay this one. You wait and see.
But I do agreelah. Our transportation quite cheap already for what you get. The service is world class :thumbsup:

 

[weg]

I'm curious why companies will still want to increase price citing rising costs, when they actually still post profits? From the lay person who does not know anything about business, I would just think that they are plain greedy.

Anyway, I think maybe people wont be as irked by these pending price hikes if we get a decent level of service. Just look at the number of poorly maintained buses SBS has. On paper we may look impressive, with nearly all buses that are air-conditioned, equipped with TV mobile, EZ link system that can auto calculate the bus stage... an on MRTs the LCD screens that only serve for displaying adverts.. All these look great and maybe the people up there or who dont take public transport sincerely think that our public transport is truly great, but just ask anyone who takes buses every single day.... air-con? what air-con... TV mobile? poorly maintained... EZ link? was anyone complaining about transitlink cards?

Granted, our public transport fares are cheaper than other countries, but I think there are more factors to look at. Otherwise, the counter argument is also true... just because Malaysia sells nasi lemak for $1, does that mean that Singapore nasi lemaks should also be $1?

But at the end of the day, we consumers can only continue to gripe everytime there's an increment... time still continues and soon people will get used to it. We will still have to take the buses and trains because they are the only ones providing the "service". Maybe they know this fact too well, and that is why raising fares is an easy solution for their profit maximising desires.

 

[hongsien]

There is one thing I don't understand: for most countries the primary reason for the transportation is to serve the public (I think it is called 'public' transport ;-)).......I don't understand why Delgro has to be privatised.......this just doesn't serve the primary reason....

This is why in the case of a loss making government run service, the loss is still born out by the tax payers (including those who don't even use public transport)....someone has to pay the loss......

HS

 

[kjmedora]

The problem arises when these corps have shareholders to please and they must report rising profits.. so the questions are.. : how much profit is healthy for growth, and how much is just greed...? and do the profits get distibuted to the shareholders or get pumped back into the transport system to better the services for all?

 

[dkw]

Metro fare in Washington DC -->

Regular fare (In effect on weekdays from opening to 9:30 a.m., 3-7 p.m. and 2 a.m. to closing)

$US1.35 minimum
$US3.90 maximum

Metro Fare in Northern Ireland -->


£1.00 for travel within the Inner Zone (Child £0.50)
£1.20 for travel in the City Zone and City Zone/Inner Zone (Child £0.60)
£1.50 for travel beyond the City Zone (Child £0.75)

Paris Metro Fare -->

Individual Tickets
Single tickets 1.40 €uros


London Underground Fares -->

London Underground Fares (from 2 Jan 2005 )
Zones 1 Adult Child* Mon-Fri Weekend
£2.00 £0.60

Hong Kong MTR fares -->
Adult fares range from HK$4.00 to HK$26.00,

Singapore MRT Fares -->
Single trip ticket S$0.80 to S$1.80


Comparing incomes;

Year 2000 Per Capita GDP($US) of:

US --> 31996
France --> 29810
HK --> 24218
Singapore --> 28229

Source --> http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/query.php

You can do your own currency conversions, Singapore public transport fares are not expensive at all relative to our GDP.

 

[theITguy]

In Singapore, thre is just too many things that cannot be competed for, as such are the public transport, public utilities and public housing. Yes, they can allow alternatives, but not the common stuff that common people (low/mid class) uses that the 3 I mentioned above. If there is a monopoly, people will argue that there will be no motivation to improvement, which is not true as even now, I am not happy with some of the services.


The most amazing part is, last sat I read SMRT gained SGD127million profits and the next day I saw news on TV for application for price hike. My next step would certainly be buying tons of SMRT shares, as since their introduction into the Singapore Exchange (SGX) at 60cents +/-, it has since rised up to 90cents+/-, which is a 50% gain.


BUYBUYBUY SMRT SHARES

 

[kjmedora]

You can do your own currency conversions, Singapore public transport fares are not expensive at all relative to our GDP.

dont compare based on currency conversions unless you earn in one currency and pay in another...

you have to compare unit of dollar earned to unit of dollar spent...

 

[kjmedora]

hmmmm... get me thinking... maybe taxis next..?

 

[theITguy]

dkw, you cannot compare direct prices with direct GDP. There must be other factors to consider. GDP does not show everything, as it is only Gross Domestic Product. Higher in GDP does not means higher pay for the lower and middle class does it?

 

[dkw]

dont compare based on currency conversions unless you earn in one currency and pay in another...

you have to compare unit of dollar earned to unit of dollar spent...

Exactly, the relative country GDPs are provided below, which show very little difference in dollar terms as far as Singapore, France and US are concerned (mind you, adjusted already). So if you do the proper conversions on the train fares, you will see SMRT underprices Paris and Washington by a long mile and is even slightly cheaper than HK MTR, despite higher country GDP for Singapore.

Here, I'll do it for you, comparing lowest fare or single trip;

Washington --> US$1.35

Paris --> US$1.79

HK --> US$0.51

S'pore --> US$0.49

If you don't agree with my methodology, please offer up one of your own to demonstrate why the comparison (on price only) is not valid. Bear in mind again, the GDP for US, France and Singapore are nearly equal, with HK some distance behind. Bear in mind also, that the residents of France and the US pay far higher VAT and income taxes than Singaporeans....given the overall economic structure and stage of country development, you have a hard time convincing me that MRT fares in Singapore are over-priced.

 

[song]

Metro fare in Washington DC -->

Regular fare (In effect on weekdays from opening to 9:30 a.m., 3-7 p.m. and 2 a.m. to closing)

$US1.35 minimum
$US3.90 maximum

Metro Fare in Northern Ireland -->


£1.00 for travel within the Inner Zone (Child £0.50)
£1.20 for travel in the City Zone and City Zone/Inner Zone (Child £0.60)
£1.50 for travel beyond the City Zone (Child £0.75)

Paris Metro Fare -->

Individual Tickets
Single tickets 1.40 €uros


London Underground Fares -->

London Underground Fares (from 2 Jan 2005 )
Zones 1 Adult Child* Mon-Fri Weekend
£2.00 £0.60

Hong Kong MTR fares -->
Adult fares range from HK$4.00 to HK$26.00,

Singapore MRT Fares -->
Single trip ticket S$0.80 to S$1.80


Comparing incomes;

Year 2000 Per Capita GDP($US) of:

US --> 31996
France --> 29810
HK --> 24218
Singapore --> 28229

Source --> http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/query.php

You can do your own currency conversions, Singapore public transport fares are not expensive at all relative to our GDP.

Based on per capita income, you are correct to say our fares are low.
However, per capita income does not translate into real income per person. For example, a rich man earns 1million a yr and there are 10k people unemployed. However, per capita income is still a rough good figure because it is averaged out.

Particularly during the recent times, we have a lot of unemployment and pay cut for the general public. However, we have our riches still doing well and improving. So at the end of the day, the per capita income is not much changed but the public pain in making a living is much higher.

 

[song]

In Singapore, thre is just too many things that cannot be competed for, as such are the public transport, public utilities and public housing. Yes, they can allow alternatives, but not the common stuff that common people (low/mid class) uses that the 3 I mentioned above. If there is a monopoly, people will argue that there will be no motivation to improvement, which is not true as even now, I am not happy with some of the services.


The most amazing part is, last sat I read SMRT gained SGD127million profits and the next day I saw news on TV for application for price hike. My next step would certainly be buying tons of SMRT shares, as since their introduction into the Singapore Exchange (SGX) at 60cents +/-, it has since rised up to 90cents+/-, which is a 50% gain.


BUYBUYBUY SMRT SHARES

If the increase this time round manages to get approval, i recommend we should read to be a smart "prosumer"

I have read a book on being a Prosumer. Get yourself assets in the companies that provide services and goods to you. In this sense, you need to buy as much SBS/Delgro or SMRT shares, as much as your saving allowed. Any gain by these companies, it will translate some amount of gain for you. So it is like a cycle. The more you spend, the more rebate you will get in the form of paid divdend.

 

[dkw]

dkw, you cannot compare direct prices with direct GDP. There must be other factors to consider. GDP does not show everything, as it is only Gross Domestic Product. Higher in GDP does not means higher pay for the lower and middle class does it?

Absolutely right,
lets do a comparison;

Income tax rate: Top end

France --> 48.57%!
http://www.pwcglobal.com/extweb/manissue.nsf/DocID/7B7199E7A57AFBC2CA256CFD002FC46F

US --> Combination of State and Federal taxes, top federal rate alone is already 35% in 2004. Some state taxes are as high as 8%.

Singapore --> 21%

Hong Kong --> 16%
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/cda/doc/content/ap_tax_asiaspecific_110405.pdf


VAT:

France --> 19.6%

US --> State taxes and local taxes ranging from 5% to 18% in total

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/sl_sales.html

Singapore --> 5%

Hong Kong --> Nil

Source --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax#Non-EU_countries (Do have a look at this page, you will be shocked at how low Singapore's sales tax is, even in comparison with so-called socialist countries)

Income Inequality (GINI Index - the lower the better i.e the flatter the income distribution):


France --> 32.7

US --> 40.8

Singapore --> 42.5

Hong Kong --> 43.4

Singapore similar to US and HK, behind France.

Source --> http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2004/pdf/hdr04_complete.pdf


A dose of reality yah? I think we've got it really good!