Olympus to sell off camera division

[Pitachu]

The original thread is about the sale of olympus camera division, so now let's summarize our views :

The MFT loyalists and defenders eg sadwitch, Pitachu, swifty, by-blu : Trully believe that MFT has the best combination of any system and Olympus MFT future is bright.

The realist eg Ricohflex, SNAG, castortroy, tommyk : MFT is doomed, sonner or later and Olympus camera division is doom as well

(Please correct me if I wrongly summarize your views)

Both sides have good arguments to support their outlook although the loyalist's arguments are generally more emotion based.
The realists are generally experienced camera users and based their outlook on financial numbers and the competitive market factors.

Let's see what happens in 3, 5 and 10 years ahead.

Sorry, I don't think you have pigeon-holed some of us correctly.

In fact, I feel that all cameras from Compact to M43 to FF to Medium Format are all doomed in 10 years time
except for 1 or 2 brands, catering to the needs of Professionals and Serious Hobbyist.

The rest of the world will just use Mobile Phone for their photos.

I say this because 10 years ago, when I went on a group tour, every one has a camera,
be it Compact or SLR. This 2 years when I went on a tour, I am the only one in the
tour with a camera sling down from my neck

By the way, I take hundreds of photos every month with my iPhone too

 

[Blu-By-U]

Sad to say, Pitachu, I agree. I even see people using handphones in events. So maybe this decade will be the last on hobby photographers carrying a camera.

 

[sadwitch]

Already seen the video titled " Olympus O-MD E-M1 Mark III vs Sony A73: Why MFT in a Full Frame World? "
by Vistek | Your Visual Imaging Experts.
It did sound like a paid advertisement to make E-M1 Mark III look somehow acceptable. Which was pathetic.

There are some problems in the video.
In Feb 2020, the author purposely chose to compare E-M1 Mark III (Olympus latest body) with an old Sony A7 Mark III from years ago.
He dared not compare with the latest Sony A7R Mark IV.

This is the most glaring snake oil con job aspect about this video.

In 4min 54 sec of the video he described E-M1 Mark III handheld high res mode giving 50MP.
In 4min 58 sec of the video he described E-M1 Mark III tripod high res mode giving 80MP.

But dare not tell viewers that Sony A7R Mark IV has 61MP in normal shooting mode.
The video dare not tell viewers that in Sony A7R Mark IV tripod high res mode, it gives 240MP.

Please note that in all such high res modes, the subject must be stationary. If the subject moves, it fails.

In 7min 33 sec, the video showed the Olympus O-MD E-M1 Mark III next to old Sony A7 Mark III.
And not much difference in size.
Yet the full frame old Sony has a sensor that is 3.8 times bigger.

I'm sure if people have $4k to burn, the Sony A7R IV is a "no brainer" for "ultimate" resolution ....

If you think comparing by shooting "in the field" is pathetic, I can't imaging how else would you use your camera for? Spend 4k to compare on printed spec sheets?

And if comparing just on ONE feature which people seems to be fixated on, the Sony shoots around 10 Fps whereas Olympus shoots up to 60 Fps at almost half the cost, so does it mean Sony is 12X overpriced?

Not to mention you'll need 3X the computer processing power for 60mp or 12X for 240mp at who knows what it's going to cost you to build one.

 

[swifty]

The original thread is about the sale of olympus camera division, so now let's summarize our views :

The MFT loyalists and defenders eg sadwitch, Pitachu, swifty, by-blu : Trully believe that MFT has the best combination of any system and Olympus MFT future is bright.

The realist eg Ricohflex, SNAG, castortroy, tommyk : MFT is doomed, sonner or later and Olympus camera division is doom as well

(Please correct me if I wrongly summarize your views)

Both sides have good arguments to support their outlook although the loyalist's arguments are generally more emotion based.
The realists are generally experienced camera users and based their outlook on financial numbers and the competitive market factors.

Let's see what happens in 3, 5 and 10 years ahead.

Sorry but pretty far off the mark. At least for my opinions.
I neither feel m43 has the best combination of any system nor does Olympus have a bright future.
I talked about specific advantages of the smaller higher pixel density sensor format that nobody has decided to debate and that it’s going to be an industry wide problem if every manufacturer doesn’t downsize and reduce model count.

We differ on our views of what strategies Olympus can take to improve their outlook but I don’t know how that makes your group realists and we’re somehow loyalists/defenders.

 

[ricohflex]

Mr. Terry Poe commented the following in a forum on Fstoppers website on 17 November 2019.
About some probable approaches Olympus might take. Part of his comments is as follows:

Quote
{ Cut costs, stall, procrastinate, make appearance of innovation by introducing new models with minor cosmetic changes in the hope of better times and to minimize inventory. The most likely course of action that probably will lead to closure anyway in a couple of years. }
UnQuote

He is right. In 2020 that is exactly what is happening. Just look at the E-M1 Mark III.
Olympus cornered 70% of the world endoscopy equipment market.
Olympus has a Star (endoscopy) to be able to afford to keep a Dog (camera imaging division) in the Boston Consulting Group growth–share matrix.

Why did Olympus not kill (camera imaging division) in 2019?
2019 was the Centennial Year for Olympus. It was founded in 1919. You don't slap your own face during the Centennial celebration year.

Why Olympus may not kill (camera imaging division) in 2020?
Because this is the year of the Tokyo Olympics 2020. Japan may not get to host Olympics for another 50 years. This is a big deal. Everyone is looking at Japan.
Cameras of various brands are used by professionals and the general public / spectators at the Olympics.
You don't do an in-house massacre in such an important year. It is called not losing face. Or else other Japanese corporations will sneer at Olympus.

2021? hmm.... maybe the knife will be sharpened.
In the mean time, Olympus may put on a brave face and look for a buyer for its (camera imaging division).
And lie that everything is wonderful, so that the selling price is not depressed.

 

[Blu-By-U]

There are a lot of companies in this world that would love to get their hand on the innovations and achievements. So if oly really is interested in selling off the imaging division, I am sure they will have lots of suitors. BUT the company buying it will or will not continue the mft, that would be another thing. BUT one must also remember that the imaging division is not only camera bodies but lenses as well and endoscope also requires it.

 

[Pitachu]

2021? hmm.... maybe the knife will be sharpened.
In the mean time, Olympus may put on a brave face and look for a buyer for its l (camera imaging division).
And lie that everything is wonderful, so that the selling price is not depressed.

Olympus is indeed looking for a buyer. I have a friend who works very closely with camera equipment manufacturer
told me. Olympus has probably got their Imaging Division valued by a 3rd party and has set a target price.

For any buyer to cough out a huge sum of money, I think they will probably will keep the Olympus Imaging
Division as a going concern.

Meanwhile, I believe they are doing their best to present it as a goody company, and I must say they
are quite successful. I had owned Nikon, Canon, Sony & Panasonic Cameras before and none of they
engage me like Olympus, inviting me to join their events to let me learn all the features quickly
and test out all the lenses and accessories. And this is on a weekly basis, which I attend whenever
I have the time. Sony only invited me twice after owning 2 of their cameras for many years and Nikon
and Canon never invited me even though my company is still owning 4 Canon DSLRs. including their
1 Ds previously. All I had is a relatively cheap mid-range EM5.3 and they made me felt so welcomed in their
community That is why I am so loyal.

 

[sadwitch]

Well unless this terry poe is an olympus executive or strategist or business insider or competitor, he is NO different to anybody here taking a punt.

Yes we shall see what happens in 2021? Like the quote from "fight club", On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero. Everything is transient. Its a matter of do you feel happy during this period or you're filled with negativity.

As for MFT as a system, I see the scenario as something newbies would easily pass due to "external forces" e.g. what others use in the news or on the street must be good (aka join the herd). It's more suited for experienced users who has tried every other systems and weighted out all the options knowing it's not the best but does everything well and realised that MFT can actually fill a need not entirely present in other systems.

I'm sad that sigma has postpone the FF foveon development indefinitely. To me that's more interesting than anything else in the market right now.

Mr. Terry Poe commented the following in a forum on Fstoppers website on 17 November 2019.
About some probable approaches Olympus might take. Part of his comments is as follows:

Quote
{ Cut costs, stall, procrastinate, make appearance of innovation by introducing new models with minor cosmetic changes in the hope of better times and to minimize inventory. The most likely course of action that probably will lead to closure anyway in a couple of years. }
UnQuote

He is right. In 2020 that is exactly what is happening. Just look at the E-M1 Mark III.
Olympus cornered 70% of the world endoscopy equipment market.
Olympus has a Star (endoscopy) to be able to afford to keep a Dog (camera imaging division) in the Boston Consulting Group growth–share matrix.

Why did Olympus not kill (camera imaging division) in 2019?
2019 was the Centennial Year for Olympus. It was founded in 1919. You don't slap your own face during the Centennial celebration year.

Why Olympus may not kill (camera imaging division) in 2020?
Because this is the year of the Tokyo Olympics 2020. Japan may not get to host Olympics for another 50 years. This is a big deal. Everyone is looking at Japan.
Cameras of various brands are used by professionals and the general public / spectators at the Olympics.
You don't do an in-house massacre in such an important year. It is called not losing face. Or else other Japanese corporations will sneer at Olympus.

2021? hmm.... maybe the knife will be sharpened.
In the mean time, Olympus may put on a brave face and look for a buyer for its l (camera imaging division).
And lie that everything is wonderful, so that the selling price is not depressed.

 

[ricohflex]

There are 2 positive things to note about the situation facing Olympus Camera Imaging Division.

1) Where else can you find a doting parent company that year after year, forgives your terrible financial losses?

2) The fact that the parent company can corner 70% of the endoscopy world wide market, proves that Olympus has top engineering talent in-house.
Except that for Camera Imaging Division, the management has squandered this top quality engineering prowess - and stubbornly directed the staff to continue making cameras and lenses for MFT. Imagine how frustrating it is for the Olympus engineers.

It is similar to troops being ordered to charge up the wrong hill (the MFT hill) instead of the correct hill (the Full Frame hill), by a lousy commander who does not know what he is doing.

If Olympus can steer this top grade talent within the company, away from MFT and instead, towards make full frame cameras and lenses, they can dig themselves out of this bottomless MFT pit.

 

[ricohflex]

And if comparing just on ONE feature which people seems to be fixated on, the Sony shoots around 10 Fps whereas Olympus shoots up to 60 Fps at almost half the cost, so does it mean Sony is 12X overpriced?

That is the problem with misleading advertising. a.k.a. snake oil salesmen in camera shops.
The 60 fps is only if you lock the focus and use electronic shutter.

FPS is a function of the quality of the processor, the size of the sensor, the buffer and throughput capability of the camera.
It even extends to how many card slots you have and what type they are UHS-I or UHS-II or CFast or XQD.
And relies on what speed grade/quality of memory cards you are using. For example, is it Sony Tough UHS-II SDXC 128GB 300MB/s Read & 299MB/s Write.

Reviewers who tested the E-M1 Mk III have also pointed out :

• Mediocre low-light capability
• Autofocus can’t keep up to shooting speeds (means snake oil marketing spin to bluff consumers)
• Sub-par (means way below standard) video features
• Dated (means obsolete) sensor

Reviewers who compared E-M1 Mk III to A6600, find that the E-M1 Mk III sometimes failed to focus properly when the subject moves fast.
But the A6600 got the precise focus nearly every time when the subject moves fast.

 

[Blu-By-U]

New partners..wonder if they are going to be potential owners if Oly sells out?

 

[Pitachu]

That is the problem with misleading advertising. a.k.a. snake oil salesmen in camera shops.
The 60 fps is only if you lock the focus and use electronic shutter.

Snake oil means totally of no value.
Olympus specs clearly states that it is Continuous Drive of 60 FPS.
It did not say Continuous AF at 60 FPS.

Having a fixed focus before it can shoot at 60FPS does not mean that the feature does not
work, is totally worthless and is Snake Oil. You can still it to shoot fast moving objects which
does not move towards and away from you too much. For example, you can use it to shoot a
humming bird flapping its wings while feeding from a flower (the focus does not change much).

Anyway, some years back, I was attracted by Sony Ad for the Sony A7S claiming ISO 409600.
I was disappointed that when I tested out at the showroom, the usable quality is about ISO 51,200 only.
At ISO 409600, it is just too noisy for the image to be of any value. The salesperson sheepishly
told me that the ISO limit was usually set at a higher value so that lower values like
ISO 51,200 and 102,400 is usable. Huh?????

 

[Pitachu]

Reviewers who tested the E-M1 Mk III have also pointed out :

• Mediocre low-light capability
• Autofocus can’t keep up to shooting speeds (means snake oil marketing spin to bluff consumers)
• Sub-par (means way below standard) video features
• Dated (means obsolete) sensor

Reviewers who compared E-M1 Mk III to A6600, find that the E-M1 Mk III sometimes failed to focus properly when the subject moves fast.
But the A6600 got the precise focus nearly every time when the subject moves fast.

You did not give any links of those reviews or which camera is the EM1.3 being compared with?
You mentioned A6600 on the last part, so I assume all your points refer to the Sony 6600.

1. The EM1.3 has a small sensor so it is only common sense that the low-light capability cannot be compared with APS or Full Frame.
But it is slightly compensated by the fact the smaller format lenses can be brighter and more affordable,
Sony don't even bother to make any lenses wider than 1.8 aperture for its e-mount lenses where as there are plenty of lenses wider
than 1.8 from Panasonic and Olympus. Pls dont quote all the FE lenses for Full Frame again.

2. Both the EM1.3 and 6600 max video resolution is 4K stabilized with focus tracking. Olympus even have O-Log (similar to v-log)
for color grading. I am not a video expert. Maybe you can tell me what video features are missing that you call say is it way
below stanard.

3. Interestingly, Canon just released the 1Dx, costing 3 times as much, but only 20 Megapixel. Yes, the ISO is much higher as Canon
uses a full frame sensor, but by using only 20 MP, I am sure Canon has done its research and found that 20 MP is sufficient for
professional photographers for certain applications.

 

[sadwitch]

That is the problem with misleading advertising. a.k.a. snake oil salesmen in camera shops.
The 60 fps is only if you lock the focus and use electronic shutter.

FPS is a function of the quality of the processor, the size of the sensor, the buffer and throughput capability of the camera.
It even extends to how many card slots you have and what type they are UHS-I or UHS-II or CFast or XQD.
And relies on what speed grade/quality of memory cards you are using. For example, is it Sony Tough UHS-II SDXC 128GB 300MB/s Read & 299MB/s Write.

Reviewers who tested the E-M1 Mk III have also pointed out :

• Mediocre low-light capability
• Autofocus can’t keep up to shooting speeds (means snake oil marketing spin to bluff consumers)
• Sub-par (means way below standard) video features
• Dated (means obsolete) sensor

Reviewers who compared E-M1 Mk III to A6600, find that the E-M1 Mk III sometimes failed to focus properly when the subject moves fast.
But the A6600 got the precise focus nearly every time when the subject moves fast.

Come on, how can that be misleading if it's all spell out in the marketing copy? Unless people don't read?

At such there's still the 18 FPS with AF but i can't comment on effectiveness as I've personally not use it before. Also i'll take any shotgun reviewers with a big pinch of salt as most rush through to get published quickly. I rather read long term user reviews.

Not sure what was your point for FPS.

Again what do they mean by low-light capability? To me its the consistent ability to achieve critical auto focus in less than ideal light which i don't have problems with. Knowing what iso to use in the end is up to the individual how they want to pictures to turn out.

For tripod hi-res mode I think they have refined the processing pipeline again. There are minimal detectable artefacts in the water which i believe there's bound to have movement that will impact the image. Have a look

https://asia.olympus-imaging.com/content/000107513.jpg

 

[tommyk]

"what exactly are misleading advertisements?"
These are the highest ranked examples -

• 10th – Duracell “Lasts Even Longer” ...
• 9th – Enfamil “Clinically proven to improve brain and eye development” ...
• 8th – Nivea “Bio-Slim Complex” ...
• 5th – Splenda “Made from sugar so it taste like sugar” ...
• 4th – Activia “Helps prevent colds and flu” ...
• 3th –Nutella “Good for you” not! ...
• 2nd – Skechers – “Shape up while you walk”
• 1st - Olympus - Worlds fastest DSLR & Mirrorless with 60 FPS

Olympus is ranked #1

Clap Clap Clap, Encore, Encore, Encore

 

[sadwitch]

"what exactly are misleading advertisements?"
These are the highest ranked examples -

• 10th – Duracell “Lasts Even Longer” ...
• 9th – Enfamil “Clinically proven to improve brain and eye development” ...
• 8th – Nivea “Bio-Slim Complex” ...
• 5th – Splenda “Made from sugar so it taste like sugar” ...
• 4th – Activia “Helps prevent colds and flu” ...
• 3th –Nutella “Good for you” not! ...
• 2nd – Skechers – “Shape up while you walk”
• 1st - Olympus - Worlds fastest DSLR & Mirrorless with 60 FPS

Olympus is ranked #1

Clap Clap Clap, Encore, Encore, Encore

I'm sorry, nowhere i read did Olympus ever claimed being the world's fastest. So did you came up with that copy?

Besides Nikon 1 V3 has already did 60 FPS before Olympus... but sadly it died an early death. Could've been something interesting looking at how good the 1" sensors are now.

 

[ricohflex]

Not sure what was your point for FPS.

Now I know why some are impressed with Olympus marketing blurb of 60 FPS.

 

[sadwitch]

Now I know why some are impressed with Olympus marketing blurb of 60 FPS.

Same as how people will be impressed by canon's 20mp 20fps 1.5kg 6K camera. Tsk

 

[swifty]

Oh dear..... snake oil???
This is new, a company offering a feature but panned as snake oil when its pretty much in agreement that numbers sell, oh you know that old bigger (sensor) is always better argument on the surface without delving into the details.

Let’s delve in a bit shall we. So Olympus has offered a mode where it lets you shoot at its maximum bandwidth the sensor is capable of, perhaps with considerations for heat generation.
The fact is you want to do anything else with the sensor’s data stream, you’re going to slow it down. So add AF, add subject tracking, AE and there’s a subset of the data going into processing and feeding back. Add mechanical shutters and you’re now limited to the maximum speed of the mechanical shutters regardless of what you’re doing with the sensor data. Now who has a faster mechanical shutter? Not that many off the top of my head but happy to be proven wrong.
So of course when you want a maximum data dump you’re going to have a list of footnotes on conditions that allow that. You wanna see footnotes, why not have a read of the Sony A9 introduction blurb. Oh no, there’s that snake oil salesman again.

And what would you want AF for at 60fps stills. It’s for set shots with a very short burst. Very limited applications, sure. But snake oil? I think people’s biases are on show again.
Otherwise let’s have a conversation about every other product that sell by numbers regardless of application. An RX100VII ad just showed up on my Facebook feed. Wow 90fps, footnote 7 frames only. Yes, I’m really able to time a 77ms burst of 7 frames at 90fps.

 

[ricohflex]

Actually the 60 FPS marketing blurb is a 4 year old hat. It was from 2016 E-M1 Mk2. It is not something "new" that came with the E-M1 Mk3 in 2020.

Copy writer's job is to turn prospects into paying customers. That is normal for any camera brand.

Canon 1 DX Mk3, sacrificed high MP to achieve fast throughput - made for Professionals covering Tokyo Olympics 2020 or photojournalists.
Maybe because Internet online media news page photos, do not need very high MP.
More important is to get the special shot at the crucial moment.

Not ruling out the rare possibility of a 1DX Mk4 in next few years with lower throughput but with a high MP sensor, when the Tokyo Olympics is over.
Chances are slim, though. Think Canon will monitor the demand for such a thing.

Canon has announced the high MP for their new R5. The RF range seems to be the company's future emphasis.