Total distortion of beauty! This is SICK!!!

[Prismatic]

Priscilia, I understand what's your stand in this matter. As I've mentioned, just because everyone is doing it, doesn't mean that it's right or that we should do it. There's nothing controversial about it, it's stated quite clearly in our statutes, the uses and limitations of copyright. If someone is caught, ignorance won't be an accepted excuse at all. Of course, there are some exceptions as you might have concluded. In the case of the lecturers, it can be considered as part of fair use for education. But some people really don't know about these things, so there's no helping it I guess. But if you are aware that it's illegal, and you make no effort to change the way you use copyrights, then that's just questionable behaviour.

Anyway, back to the topic, honestly, I have no idea why would they want models to look at that. Is it just so that it will be something of a shock effect? Or some designers actually think that they will make the clothes look good? If they actually design clothes to fit these models, how are they going to sell the clothes when most people can't fit into them?

 

[azul123]

Really. You think a link will have similar imapct. This is life sand death. This is morality.

I disagree with Octane regarding copyrights. But at the end of the day, something needs to be done, and Octane did it. I applaud him.

Squabble??? How can you equate life and death as squabble. Maybe, one or two death is aceptable loss for you, but not for me.


We are dealing with someone's life here. Do youunderstand the seriousness of the situation?

May not bring the same impact but it would still bring about awareness. Life and death and we are talking about people's life and a choice they make, eventhough it does not conform to our own. It is a sad situation when I look at their state and I do not agree with it... but that does not mean we can do ala Robin Hood, break a law to uphold a principle.

If CS community does not condone the actions of DeYonker, we must not have double standards... it will only show that we flip flop with issues relating to IP. You do not have to bold the letters I can read and comprehend the situation more than you know, but it is not the issue here is it? whether I comprehend the situation or not.

Do we condone anyone breaking IP or not? if yes, then be straight about it if not then make a stand so CS community know how we engage each other about IP. Some people you shoot left right centre and some you applaud.. to me there is mixed signals.

I have no quarrel with anyone, just thought that in future please don't make it sound so serious when the same IP issue come around next. I don't intend to debate this... que sera sera.

../azul123

 

[Octane69]

This is getting ridiculous... :bsmilie: All i wanted was to show a picture. Of someone whom i think is sick, caused by our society's deformed perception of beauty. And all it became is this mud slinging match about IP.

Anyway, I plead ignorance about the offence of not being able to post up pictures that i recieve from emails, or in fact any picture unless i clicked it, shot it, DIed it, or i have a worldwide release for it. All i wanted was a discussion, about our disillusioned perception of beauty. Or the kinds of pressure these models face.

Azul, no offence to you, DeYonker took other people photos and passed it on as his own. That is cheating, leaching or whatever you choose to call it, i hope my saving grace is that i did not. so please do not compare, its two totally different situations and goals. and i believe different sub forum too?

That being said, there are alot of information, pictures as well as articles... etc that we all read, forward, cut n paste, show our friends, family relatives, dogs and cats.... every single day... These are all illegal i supposed. I shall try to tell people i know who do this that they can go to jail for it.

I have written a email to the web master of snopes.com telling him that his article here
http://www.snopes.com/photos/people/models.asp

is excellent in getting his message across, however he has commited a henious crime of putting up pictures that he did not shoot. i will be waiting for his reply.

Anyway, i think the IP and CP issues have been addressed, and the discussion about that should be taken elsewhere. Can we go back to discussing what the thread is orginally about before being hijacked?

Is this our perception of beauty? Is this what you want our daughters to think as being beautiful mean? does anyone find this beautiful??? :devil:

 

[azul123]

Is this our perception of beauty? Is this what you want our daughters to think as being beautiful mean? does anyone find this beautiful??? :devil:

As to the topic... I don't find this beautiful, in fact I find it sick as your intent. And thank you for creating awareness about this. I like people with more meat not too much and not too little like a walking skeleton.

Sorry, no intention to hijack your thread. My apologies.

../azul123

 

[Octane69]

No worries dude... you did not hijack it, you just joined in after it was hijacked by someone else...

aneroxia, bulimia... eating disorders.. are becomnig a serious problem in society esp with all this wrapped n sick sense of beauty... ;(

As to the topic... I don't find this beautiful, in fact I find it sick as your intent. And thank you for creating awareness about this. I like people with more meat not too much and not too little like a walking skeleton.

Sorry, no intention to hijack your thread. My apologies.

../azul123

 

[shinken]

Just to continue in the little 'crusade' to highlight awareness, and not for the sake of insisting rights and wrongs, pls see response

1. In my tertiary education, lecturers are fond of putting up lots of images in their Powerpoint slides to teach and make their points. With the Internet, it's so easy to search on practically any image that you want. But I don't remember them quoting the sources. They can be charged?

Yes. Even among lecturers in the local Us, the copyright awareness is not very high. As you go even higher up, you should see a hightened form of awareness. If not in the form of written permission, at least credentials. So there's a need even among local academics in the form of increasing awareness of intellectual property. Trust me on this, things are being done to increase awareness among lecturers.

2. I know many people who download wallpapers from the Net with unknown photographers. They are openly displayed on their computer monitors in the offices. Are they infringing the copyright law too?

Displaying copyrighted images on personal computers (PC) is not exactly broadcasting. A grey area if you ask me. But I won't pretend to be the expert here.

3. When you play music on your car stereo and you wind down the windows or you drive a convertible, and as you pass, people can listen to the music you are playing. Is it against the law too? Cos if you want to be paranoid and strict about it, that's some kinda illegal broadcasting.

That's still not broadcasting.

What about those MP3 music we use when we play slide shows to display our images? Must we acknowledge in the slide show where the music is taken from? Or do we have to write to the record company for permission?

Yes. In fact, many local photographers site are using copyrighted music without permission on their website, that's broadcasting. Want to see whether you're right? Send an email to the local record label and let them know of the case, and see what happens.


4. I've also attended countless seminars, formal and informal ones, where pictures are used by the speakers/organizers to decorate the slides or as part of their talks. No acknowledgements were made. I haven't heard or seen the police stepping in so far. What about the music they play over the PA system before the start of the event? Illegal too? Or have they gotten permission already? Also, those who get married and they broadcast the wedding songs from the CD album in the hotel ballroom. Copyright infringement unless they get permission from the singer/record company?

Rightfully, the presenter or writers of the materials have to attempt to seek copyright clearance. If there's no response, credentials must be clearly stated. Otherwise it's a clear cut infringement. The police are not the ones who enforce copyrights. It's the owners of the copyrights who do. Singaporeans don't like to go through the money and hassle to pursue, but that's not taken for granted the rest of the world is like us as well. Don't be sorry when it's too late.

5. Kids and students who paste posters on their school files of their favourite pop idols. No credit was given to the photographers who shot them. Illegal?

That's still personal use. They should have purchased the copyrights for personal use when they bought the poster.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've dealt with the writing and public dissemination of information on nationwide scale, where copyrights issues are made very clearly spelt to us, with a whole department of specialists in seeking copyrights backing us up. And they have a team of lawyers backing them up. Thus, I have the privilege of access of information regarding copyrights, as well as the consequences of infringing them. There are grey areas no doubt, just that since they're grey, they're really case by case basis. These are the times when writers like myself consult the specialists, whom in turn go to the lawyers if they're unsure.

Of course many of us can get away with posting copyrighted stuff on forums. But I think raising the awareness is not some pointless or... what's the word u use? Paronoia. Paronia policing.

It's actually for the benefit of the forumer who might one day encounter a sticky situation that's too expensive to get out of.

 

[eastwest]

I think this thread should stick to the subject at hand and that is the use of overly-thin models and the harm it does to many women's self-image.

On an interesting note, I heard on the BBC that the Spanish government is bringing in new legislation to ban the use of skinny mannequins in shop windows. All mannequins will have to conform to a bigger size. There has been a backlash in the fashion houses but the general public seem all for it.

However, maybe the government should also ban fast food to even things up a bit. I think these companies have more effect on the growing obesity problem than thin mannequins.

 

[Deadpoet]

This is sick.

We have here an industry that exploit young women, demanding them to be so thin that they are treading the line of life and death, and we can only talk about copyrights?

Are people in CS so self centered that they can only see issues that affect themselves directly?

We are photographers, we of course must be concern with copyrights, but we are part of the problems. But ducking the real "bulltet" and diverting the focus from the fashion industry's practice of demanding super thin models to copyrights, we are in fact endorsing the practice. Then we are no longer merely associated with the problem, we become part of the problem.


Someone asked me what I am doing about it, I believe it's one of my detractors. Well, for one, I am glad someone brought this mater up in the open, I will help to brign awareness of this problem. And I promised myself, I will reject to shoot models that are anorexic, too thin, too unhealthy.

I cannot change the industry's practice, but if we all chip in, we may be able to raise the awareness of this issue.

Hooray to Barcelona, the first city to ban anorexic models from the runway. Thanks to Octane for bring this up here in CS.

 

[shinken]

My last OT.

Talk about self-centered DP. Are the few posts on copyrights really interfering with your important discussion on life and death all that much?

Are they really unnecessary?

Think before you speak. Any of these are self-centered posts?

Everytime I want to contribute something by sharing an information which I know many others don't have the privilege of access to, I have to think whether I'll get slammed. So goes for so many other vocal CSers.

I'm saying things not for myself. I have enough ego-boosters in real life as hurdles, thank you. I don't have to 'show off' here, or play the self-righteous role here.

If I try to give something, and keep on getting barked at, the end result is not to give at all.

Must it be an issue that affects you before someone can take the opportunity to highlight the awareness which arised as a result of the discussion? Do you practice double-standards?

This is sick.

We have here an industry that exploit young women, demanding them to be so thin that they are treading the line of life and death, and we can only talk about copyrights?

Are people in CS so self centered that they can only see issues that affect themselves directly?

We are photographers, we of course must be concern with copyrights, but we are part of the problems. But ducking the real "bulltet" and diverting the focus from the fashion industry's practice of demanding super thin models to copyrights, we are in fact endorsing the practice. Then we are no longer merely associated with the problem, we become part of the problem.


Someone asked me what I am doing about it, I believe it's one of my detractors. Well, for one, I am glad someone brought this mater up in the open, I will help to brign awareness of this problem. And I promised myself, I will reject to shoot models that are anorexic, too thin, too unhealthy.

I cannot change the industry's practice, but if we all chip in, we may be able to raise the awareness of this issue.

Hooray to Barcelona, the first city to ban anorexic models from the runway. Thanks to Octane for bring this up here in CS.

 

[chngpe01]

Ok... DIed or no DIed she is too skinny, and for the record, the pics were taken from snopes.com :bsmilie:

You have already violated the copyrights terms of snopes.com. This page in snopes.com have stated very clearly. Suggest you taken the images out and post a link to snoopes.com:



http://www.snopes.com/info/faq.asp
Snopes.com FAQ

extract from the FAQ
"Q: May I reproduce your material on my web site?
A: No. You may link to any of our pages from your site, but you may not reproduce the content of our pages on your own site (this includes posting the content of our pages to web-based message boards or to mailing lists that are archived on the web).
Q: May I reproduce your material on my web site if I operate a non-commercial site, and I give you credit?
A: No. Using our material without our permission is copyright infringement, even if your site is non-commercial, and even if you give us credit. A minimum $300 reprint fee will be assessed for all unauthorized reproductions of material from this site.
Q: Why are you so hung up about copyrights?
A: Because we work hard to keep our information accurate and up-to-date. When you put our material on your site we no longer have any control over it, and our reputation and credibility are jeopardized because we cannot update your site as new information becomes available. "

 

[eikin]

http://www.snopes.com/photos/people/models.asp

Ok... DIed or no DIed she is too skinny, and for the record, the pics were taken from snopes.com :bsmilie:

Are these the people we want our daughters to look up to as being beautiful?

have no likings for size-zero models. on one hand, super thin models should be discouraged. on the other hand, i think it's not right to manipulate pictures this way to exaggerate the fact. even if the model is not taking a healthy view about her own image, is there a need to distort it like this?

 

[centuryegg]

Actually I seriously think the IP issue is getting overboard and out of hand. I mean in all fairness this is a kopitiam forum. Where we discuss about anything under the sun. The thread was started using a mass email pic and the pic was used to discuss if there is anything wrong with over thin models.

If the pic was used by TS to say that he took it then okay he is wrong but in this case it seems that with the recent bid to protect IP, it is taking things alittle overboard. Cool it guys really.... this is kopitiam and frankly no one is going to sue you for mass emails..... It is good to know your rights and IP but taking it out of context makes one look silly. Just like in the USA, when in a greater awarness of sexual harassement, 6 year old kids were arrested for "sexual harassement" Yes 6 year old boys who planted a kiss on a girl who then told her teacher. Getting charged. As some parents said... how on earth does a 6 year old know that kissing a girl is sexual??!

 

[forward]

This is getting ridiculous...

Is this our perception of beauty? Is this what you want our daughters to think as being beautiful mean? does anyone find this beautiful??? :devil:

This thread is getting to no where in answering Octane's question.

First the human perception of beauty.
The fashion industry is just like any other consumer's industry, where
it has to keep on changing and creating new stuff with strict discipline
and budget.

The thin look isn't new at all with the onslaught of a meagre 91 pounds
model from Britain known as "Twiggy". I was a young photograher
then using my Nikon F. During those days in the 1960's bigger
sizes models with larger breasts were definitely not popular and
they won't get jobs modeling on the catwalk.

Twiggy two distinctive elements that won her fame is - her elfin haircut
and her panda eyes done with three layers of false eyelashes. In the
1960's the woman magazine "Woman's Mirror" was creating a
sensation when its editorial team decided to project models who were
young and thin looking. The team found Twiggy who was then only
14 years old.

Fashion is always a turn around ball and after about 35 years, the
"skinny & thin" look trend seems to be getting the limelight again.
Look at the miniskirt and the topless look - they are past trends too
but don't be surprised for better things to come.

For this time round, the thin look has just got better - what I mean
is the models have to be more skinner than Twiggy! The fashion
statement just got stronger and fashion designers are approving
the set mindful creation. The models are prepared for the worst and
thus the fierce competition of being selected for the "big time" in
doing assignments for the big fashion designers.

The thread starter is making an inquiry into the reasons for choosing
skinny models. The other point whether the parents of the models
are approving their daughters in doing so is not relevant. In the
real world when it comes to the role and priority of supporting
the family and yourself going skinny is just part of the job, just like
when you are hungry, you will eat anything to fill the stomach,
you just cannot choose what you not to eat.

:heart:

 

[eikin]

The thread starter is making an inquiry into the reasons for choosing
skinny models. The other point whether the parents of the models
are approving their daughters in doing so is not relevant. In the
real world when it comes to the role and priority of supporting
the family and yourself going skinny is just part of the job, just like
when you are hungry, you will eat anything to fill the stomach,
you just cannot choose what you not to eat.

:heart:

when there's no demand for super thin model image, those girls will not need to force themselves to starve for the job. it's always about demand and supply, isn't it?

 

[forward]

when there's no demand for super thin model image, those girls will not need to force themselves to starve for the job. it's always about demand and supply, isn't it?

You are right. The fashion marketing people set the trend and
thus the demand. So is the influx of Russian photographic models
into Singapore for jobs. So is the trend of being an elite so to say.
Should be elite photographers be shooting elite photographic models?
The thin thin look can be trendy elite.

:heart:

 

[eikin]

You are right. The fashion marketing people set the trend and
thus the demand. So is the influx of Russian photographic models
into Singapore for jobs. So is the trend of being an elite so to say.
Should be elite photographers be shooting elite photographic models?
The thin thin look can be trendy elite.

:heart:

so you're saying that everyone should just let things be the way they are?

 

[forward]

so you're saying that everyone should just let things be the way they are?

I did not say that should be the case. We are all just humans and
doing our jobs is the unique role of trying to survive. There are
choices you can filter in your mind, just like whether it is correct
or not for Bush to send twenty thousand troops to Iraq. It is a decision
from just a human.

The setting of getting skinner models on the fashion scene is just
a human decision to make a fashion statement. A fashion statement
is just like a headline in a copy. You got to get attention and this
attention will make further plans to succeed. To think small or big
is just the work of the human brain, just like when you and I decided
to participate in this interesting and meaningul thread.

:heart:

 

[jnifur]

ok, i thought women are the quarrelsome lot, men also.

come on, copy right or not, the thing is, its already posted. WHat's the big hell of debating whether is it correct or not to post pictures manipulated or not.

If there is really an issue abt it, DELETE the thread. Its as simple as this. Why keep? Is it because it serve as a source of venting frastuations from daily pissing matters on something totally unrelated?

To be frank, I read thru all the post and I realise the debate is totally unneccessary and abosolutely juvenile. It is meaningless to talk abt the whole thing OVER n OVER again isnt it? Too free ah?

But anyway, to the point, yes, media has already highlighted the concerns over the extreme thin models being used and the european countries are over the hedge about this matter.

Its not that they are bashing the skinny. Some pple are born skinny. The reason is to prevent people who go the unhealthy way to look skinny thinking its beautiful as being mislead by the use of such models.

Is there anything to do with morale or not? Its just health concern...very simple....why make things so difficult.

Think at the end of it, after all the discussions on this thread, got conclusion?
Dun have wat.,....all I see is you say me I say you...wat the hell

 

[forward]

If there is really an issue abt it, DELETE the thread. Its as simple as this. Why keep? Is it because it serve as a source of venting frastuations from daily pissing matters on something totally unrelated?

Its not that they are bashing the skinny. Some pple are born skinny. The reason is to prevent people who go the unhealthy way to look skinny thinking its beautiful as being mislead by the use of such models.

Is there anything to do with morale or not? Its just health concern...very simple....why make things so difficult.

Think at the end of it, after all the discussions on this thread, got conclusion?
Dun have wat.,....all I see is you say me I say you...wat the hell

We must learn to respect others views and opinions. People has the
right to air their concerns and their thoughts depend on their
educational level and maturity.

Both men and women have the right to discuss even in great detail
if needed be for the sake of better understanding of a subject
that concern human living condition and surviving methods.

I find this discussion interesting as it shows lots of people who are
ignorant about competition, setting trend just for for the sake of
creating an uroar. Only people in the creative industry put on their
thinking cap in this area because their clients pay them to do so.

:heart:

 

[Stereobox]

Someone asked me what I am doing about it, I believe it's one of my detractors. Well, for one, I am glad someone brought this mater up in the open, I will help to brign awareness of this problem. And I promised myself, I will reject to shoot models that are anorexic, too thin, too unhealthy.

I cannot change the industry's practice, but if we all chip in, we may be able to raise the awareness of this issue.

Hooray to Barcelona, the first city to ban anorexic models from the runway. Thanks to Octane for bring this up here in CS.

my post (#39) was aimed at how we can learn from how you helped this girl, since you had the experience of being privy this ONE model's house. a matter of life and death! indeed, you make yourself sound like such a champion of such causes - the more you should share, right!

anorexia is a 'closet' condition that creeps in slowly. by the time one is obviously anorexic, she will be almost too weak to even go for casting calls, let alone strut about on the runway. so how do you tell if a model is suffering from early stage anorexia? ask her to sign a form stating she's anorexia/bulimia-free and declare herself healthy before you shoot her? observe her dietary behavior for a couple days before booking her? perhaps then, we should all avoid traveling by certain airlines because in certain quarters, it is also an industry known for maintaining strict demands. "i don't want you to serve me - you look too thin. you must be anorexic!"?

far from being detracting - the mods here won't say it, but i will - i'm asking you to stop stinking up the forums with your bullshit here lah :devil: