PUB wants volunteer photogs for MacRitchie Res.

[raptor84]

Being a passion is one thing and being exploited is another. For volunteer organisation like SPCA, Noah's Ark Animal Sanctuary or organisation that does not have revenue, I not only give my photography services and time but also contribute $. Here is one example of my photography works for SPCA (only photography by me, not art work, design etc)

Hehe never knew that was yours My photos only end up as small thumbnails on thier website But i enjoy taking animal pics so its not a big deal for me.

 

[CYRN]

Not fighting just stating a point that's all.

Check all my other threads, I usually do not get involve with any of these, but organisation going out to get free service is just about getting my nerve.

I will leave it as it is, and will not post anymore here. My apologies to the thread starter for any OT. But my stand against such practice still stand.

Heeheehee... I juz happened to post after you... not ment to be directed at anyone.

The prob wif this forum is that more and more ppl are coming here to get "free" photographic services, from outright asking to more subtle forms of competitions or paying REAL peanuts.

I also share the same view as yourself. But each to his/her own. Needs and want's differ from ppl to ppl, some dun mind "volunteering" (BTW, NParks have a lot of volunteers too such as those who man SBWR).

But... condemming such practices here isn't going to lessen the number of request for "free" services. CS have too broad spectrum of photogs... not easy to ask for charge for everyone as newbies would like to try their hands on such.

 

[Keltzar]

re: PUB...
one thing that must be clarified is ... who owns the copyrights to the images - the volunteer, or PUB?

BTW .... the NVPC is also looking for volunteer photogs.

 

[littledigitalartist]

Being a passion is one thing and being exploited is another. For volunteer organisation like SPCA, Noah's Ark Animal Sanctuary or organisation that does not have revenue, I not only give my photography services and time but also contribute $. Here is one example of my photography works for SPCA (only photography by me, not art work, design etc)

But for a govt organisation or any money making organisation, they should be paying, that's my belief. (PS I am not anti govt organisation. I was in civil service before)

How else can full time photographers(esp events photog) in Singapore survive if all organisation follow suit.

wow... i love taking pics of animals too esp cats... but spca too far from my place liao..:cry: i no car..

once got a chance to shoot for cats welfare... but was busy with work... sian...

 

[slaam]

haha no offense taken from OT post from chngpe01
so funny moderator apologise even.
I dun really see it as OT la.
maybe if i was PUB trying to find volunteers I shld be angry hahahah..
but its true what chngpe01 says about the state of photography now.
sometimes they can get even more cheapskate and throw a PS at a staff and ask him/her to be photographer.

I always feel that you 'pay peanuts get monkeys'
but recently alot of monkeys getting better with dslrs huh?

but mohgui has a point too about getting free exposure at the same time. which is jus as impt when starting to shoot for money. no one will pay you if they haven't heard of you or seen anything nice then come and look for you. I know at least one pro who volunteeredhimself without being asked to be able to shoot at the new library. so his gain was shots that were exclusive(something like a photographer's pass to stephanie sun's concert?)

so its supposed to be win-win situation.

haha plus we only hear from the photographer's point of view(s) I wonder if the organisations complain as much that the volunteer photographers are SXXXty lah and want this want that (rights to photo,full credits, transport, the sunlight to come from a different angle) haha last one is a joke.

haha actually we can form a consortium of photographers to improve the cost of hiring photographers. we will act like superior noobs and volunteer ourselves everywhere and give them lousy shots. then the cheapskate ppl will know that want quality must pay good money.. hahah
crazy huh?

 

[LazerLordz]

Volunteer Photography for FSCs, Hospices and Charity causes is fine.

For a Statutory Board to sink to the level of getting volunteers, it's highly debatable.

 

[AixisOfJustice]

For everyone's info, PUB does have a paid professional photographer to cover their events. However, reading the MacRitchie Volunteer Programme, I do not know or understand why they (PUB) still need volunteer photographers to cover events & outings.

I think it is best to find out from PUB / the person-in-charge to clarify.

 

[behyx]

I'm greatly disappointed by the thought that PUB wanted volunteer photogs.

Where has all the 'promote local arts scene' program gone to? It's really terrible judging from the way i look at it.
If everyone locally starts to use 'volunteer photog' as a word to replace 'unpaid photog', how can SG photographers make a living?
I can understand if a small private companies engaging 'free' photography services when they just start up, but i cannot accept that a government branch do so too.

:angry:

Singapore isn't that poor to use volunteer photographers.

 

[behyx]

Too bad my english isn't very professional. Else i will surely write to the straits time forum page.

 

[Velectron]

I don't know why people here are so upset about this volunteer thingy. This is about "VOLUNTEERING", which implies you do it out of free will. If you are not willing, then just don't sign up...no point making a big fuss over a small issue. :nono:

It is not practical to hire a photographer to take "interesting" photos of "MacRitchie Reservoir & its surrounding", because the most interesting things down there are probably related to Nature (its a nature reserve!)...like a beautiful butterfly, insects mating, a swooping hawk etc etc. Those kinds of stuff have to depend on luck one, not you want then can get one. So ask yourself...how is PUB going to hire a photographer on a hourly or daily basis, to catch these interesting" things? Since the photographer is paid, he has a duty to deliver. But if he dun have luck, then how is he going to submit his photographs? And interesting things happen all the time around the reservoir every day, only whether a photographer is there to catch the event or not. So is PUB going to hire teams of photographers to catch all those interesting events? Of course not - PUB gonna pay like crazy. So the most practical way is to recruit volunteers who love nature and goes around the reservoir and its surrounding, and likes photography at the same time. If the photographer happen to catch interesting things, then good. If not also never mind.


I am positive that PUB will give the photographer his/her rights if asked. After all, they are probably going to use the photos for educational purposes...it is not as if they are going to make money from those pictures. And by the way, the very act of recruiting volunteers itself is public education. It makes the volunteers more aware of the environment, and care more about our natural heritage.

I am not from PUB by the way and is not affliated with them in any way, so dun get me wrong. I am just speaking from the view of a volunteer involved in nature projects.

 

[AixisOfJustice]

I don't know why people here are so upset about this volunteer thingy. This is about "VOLUNTEERING", which implies you do it out of free will. If you are not willing, then just don't sign up...no point making a big fuss over a small issue. :nono:

It is not practical to hire a photographer to take "interesting" photos of "MacRitchie Reservoir & its surrounding", because the most interesting things down there are probably related to Nature (its a nature reserve!)...like a beautiful butterfly, insects mating, a swooping hawk etc etc. Those kinds of stuff have to depend on luck one, not you want then can get one. So ask yourself...how is PUB going to hire a photographer on a hourly or daily basis, to catch these interesting" things? Since the photographer is paid, he has a duty to deliver. But if he dun have luck, then how is he going to submit his photographs? And interesting things happen all the time around the reservoir every day, only whether a photographer is there to catch the event or not. So is PUB going to hire teams of photographers to catch all those interesting events? Of course not - PUB gonna pay like crazy. So the most practical way is to recruit volunteers who love nature and goes around the reservoir and its surrounding, and likes photography at the same time. If the photographer happen to catch interesting things, then good. If not also never mind.


I am positive that PUB will give the photographer his/her rights if asked. After all, they are probably going to use the photos for educational purposes...it is not as if they are going to make money from those pictures. And by the way, the very act of recruiting volunteers itself is public education. It makes the volunteers more aware of the environment, and care more about our natural heritage.

I am not from PUB by the way and is not affliated with them in any way, so dun get me wrong. I am just speaking from the view of a volunteer involved in nature projects.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I think what PUB is trying to do is to get the public to take ownership of the reservoir & its environs

 

[Velectron]

Yup...thats right! IMHO

 

[waileong]

You don't want to volunteer, don't volunteer lor. Griping here will not change anything. Neither will writing to the press, because there's nothing wrong with asking for volunteers.

Volunteers will not kill the market for photogs. How can it? PUB must surely know that they cannot expect miracles from volunteers. They'll take what they can get. If they can't get something worthwhile, they'll have to decide whether they want to pay, whether it's worthwhile.

Can PUB afford to pay? Of course! But remember it's not how much money PUB has, at the dept level, every $$ spent must be justified. Perhaps the PR dept ran out of budget? Who knows?

No one in his right mind will trust an important corporate shoot to "volunteers" or "unpaid" photographers. No doubt there is undercutting, but companies know they need to pay so that they can have an assurance of a certain quality.

If you want to make a living as a photog, you should worry more about whether your standard is good enough to win over those who undercut you for important jobs, rather than griping about companies looking for volunteers for unimportant jobs.

Wai Leong
===

I'm greatly disappointed by the thought that PUB wanted volunteer photogs.

Where has all the 'promote local arts scene' program gone to? It's really terrible judging from the way i look at it.
If everyone locally starts to use 'volunteer photog' as a word to replace 'unpaid photog', how can SG photographers make a living?
I can understand if a small private companies engaging 'free' photography services when they just start up, but i cannot accept that a government branch do so too.

:angry:

Singapore isn't that poor to use volunteer photographers.

 

[wheels]

I think there are better voulunteering work out there that is better then this one offered by PUB. But to each its own. Just like you can volunteer to help the rich get richer or the poor to get their lifes going.
In terms of exposure, you be the judge. :dunno:

 

[Ashleyy]

I don't know why people here are so upset about this volunteer thingy. This is about "VOLUNTEERING", which implies you do it out of free will. If you are not willing, then just don't sign up...no point making a big fuss over a small issue. :nono:

It is not practical to hire a photographer to take "interesting" photos of "MacRitchie Reservoir & its surrounding", because the most interesting things down there are probably related to Nature (its a nature reserve!)...like a beautiful butterfly, insects mating, a swooping hawk etc etc. Those kinds of stuff have to depend on luck one, not you want then can get one. So ask yourself...how is PUB going to hire a photographer on a hourly or daily basis, to catch these interesting" things? Since the photographer is paid, he has a duty to deliver. But if he dun have luck, then how is he going to submit his photographs? And interesting things happen all the time around the reservoir every day, only whether a photographer is there to catch the event or not. So is PUB going to hire teams of photographers to catch all those interesting events? Of course not - PUB gonna pay like crazy. So the most practical way is to recruit volunteers who love nature and goes around the reservoir and its surrounding, and likes photography at the same time. If the photographer happen to catch interesting things, then good. If not also never mind.


I am positive that PUB will give the photographer his/her rights if asked. After all, they are probably going to use the photos for educational purposes...it is not as if they are going to make money from those pictures. And by the way, the very act of recruiting volunteers itself is public education. It makes the volunteers more aware of the environment, and care more about our natural heritage.

I am not from PUB by the way and is not affliated with them in any way, so dun get me wrong. I am just speaking from the view of a volunteer involved in nature projects.

While I agree with you that hiring a photographer to cover such works is not practical.. but most photos are paid based on the photos selected rather than getting a photographer itself.

If PUB is asking photographers to shoot photos of the theme they required and then pay for the usage of the photos, I'm sure they will get a better response.

All this flaming about volunteering work is not so much of whether the company is rich enough to pay or not but IMHO that this is the culture that Singaporeans are moving into. Several companies, etc simply just buy a PnS camera and ask any of their own stuff to shoot during their events... This shows how much such event coverage will ever comes to professional photographers.

While all these are going on, there are definitely companies who also hire photographers as well. Largely for the quality of the pics they need or their own staff are too tied up to take photos for them..

As some of the CSer have mention, we are seeing more of such requests seeking free photography services here. There is no way of preventing such requests, so flaming the original thread posters also do not help them at all nor is it nice.

Mmm.. maybe we should form a Photographers Guild to regulate photography charges, etc... :bsmilie:

 

[espn]

It is not practical to hire a photographer to take "interesting" photos of "MacRitchie Reservoir & its surrounding", because the most interesting things down there are probably related to Nature (its a nature reserve!)...like a beautiful butterfly, insects mating, a swooping hawk etc etc. Those kinds of stuff have to depend on luck one, not you want then can get one. So ask yourself...how is PUB going to hire a photographer on a hourly or daily basis, to catch these interesting" things? Since the photographer is paid, he has a duty to deliver. But if he dun have luck, then how is he going to submit his photographs? And interesting things happen all the time around the reservoir every day, only whether a photographer is there to catch the event or not. So is PUB going to hire teams of photographers to catch all those interesting events? Of course not - PUB gonna pay like crazy. So the most practical way is to recruit volunteers who love nature and goes around the reservoir and its surrounding, and likes photography at the same time. If the photographer happen to catch interesting things, then good. If not also never mind.

Then like that hor, no need wedding photographer liao because wedding photographer also need to capture the moment, if need to capture the moment will need a lot of photographer because everywhere also moment and have to depend on luck, so in order to cut costs then ask for volunteers can liao? :thumbsup: I like you man.

I am positive that PUB will give the photographer his/her rights if asked. After all, they are probably going to use the photos for educational purposes...it is not as if they are going to make money from those pictures. And by the way, the very act of recruiting volunteers itself is public education. It makes the volunteers more aware of the environment, and care more about our natural heritage.

You working at PUB? How come you so sure?

I am not from PUB by the way and is not affliated with them in any way, so dun get me wrong. I am just speaking from the view of a volunteer involved in nature projects.

Ah... so you NOT from PUB, there's a difference from being involved in a nature project by people/organisations which are totally based on goodwill effort/time and one with big resources to get the things done. Different la...

 

[sORe-EyEz]

some cant c d diff? :sweat:

if every1 ask 4 volunteer 4 each & every task den who got any job left...

volunteer MD, CEO, etc-etc... :bsmilie:

 

[Velectron]

Then like that hor, no need wedding photographer liao because wedding photographer also need to capture the moment, if need to capture the moment will need a lot of photographer because everywhere also moment and have to depend on luck, so in order to cut costs then ask for volunteers can liao? :thumbsup: I like you man

The wedding photographer is there at the event...if he cannot capture the moment then its his lack of skills. But for nature shots, you dun even know where what when is the interesting event happening...how do you shoot? Maybe only some Omni-powerful being who can foresee things happening and be everywhere at the same time can do it. :bsmilie:

Ah... so you NOT from PUB, there's a difference from being involved in a nature project by people/organisations which are totally based on goodwill effort/time and one with big resources to get the things done. Different la...

You seem to forgot that PUB is under the government...and where does the money it gets come from?? Tax payers money of course! So if they pay so much money for a photographer to take Nature pictures (and no gurantee will get interesting pictures), you think the public is not going to complain?? How are they going to account to the tax payers? Sure ganna shot upside down one. :bsmilie:

Got money also doesn't mean can anyhow spend one...:nono:

 

[sORe-EyEz]

i think u both (espn & Velectron) got a point. there r things in life tt r nv and (sadly) can nv b a clear cut black & white situations.

 

[Velectron]

Thanks sore-eyez. I think the biggest problem down here is that most people are not looking beyond the fact the PUB is recruiting volunteers. They think that since PUB is a BIG gov board with lots of money, then they should hire photogs instead of using volunteers.

How many here have thought deeper into the issue that this volunteer recruitment business is itself a volunteering act by PUB? The PUB is only tasked with providing the public with amenities like gas, water, sanitation etc. Public education on our natural heritage around central catchment is NOT part of their duty (more of NParks). Anyone here who has run volunteer programs before will know that it is usually a shitty and thankless task, which miserably few people would ever want to do. What PUB is trying to do is to help increase the public awareness of our natural heritage as well as instil a sense of ownership in our citizens. It is very evident that they are doing this for the first time (or the one in charge of this is a new guy), as can be seen in their "T&C", which I have to admit isn't very realistic - covering their events should not really be done by volunteers. But this does not negate the fact that they are trying to do what they can, big organisation or not. Instead of looking at how much money they earn every year, why not change the angle of view and look around at which organisation can do this job? Only big organisations has the resources to sustain this kind of work for a long time. Public education is a damn expensive task if you ask me. :sweat:

PUB already stated that the photos given to them will be used for education, not money-generating business. Take it as doing a good deed if anyone here submits his/her photos to them. The nature photos taken could very much be things which the ordinary city-dwellers in Singapore will never ever see in their lifetime. These photos are not only just precious records of our unique biodiversity, but are also a valuable avenue to educate our people what the tiny little red dot has, in terms of biodiversity. We are sitting on a treasure trove of biodiveristy which most of us don't even know about, much less the fragile nature of it. If we dun start educating our people about our nature and bio-conservation, it won't be long before our children and grandchildren will only learn about "Nature" in history books. Those nature photos we take, no matter how beautiful they are, are just a bunch of useless electric charges sitting on our HDD, if they are not seen and appreciated by anyone. And since PUB is doing the dirty job of printing the photos and arranging the logistics so that people will see the photos, there isn't really much to lose, especially if you are already into nature photography and lurks around the nature areas in Singapore. PUB in its right set of mind would not antagonise its own volunteer photogs by seizing the rights to the photos and not acknowledging the source. That would be akin to smashing its own feet with a brick. :bsmilie:

Anyway, this thread has really gone off-topic liao. Maybe we should just let the matter rest, and let whoever wants to join the program do it, without negative influence from anyone.