Olympus to sell off camera division

[Blu-By-U]

Still can't understand why those who despise the fourthird format still comes in here. You have sold out, then move on. UNLESS you are still not satisfied with the system you have moved to and still find this small sensor still appealing BUT dare not admit it. So you are here hoping that with that small noise you are making will attract some attention from oly...NO WAY.

There will be followers and there will be new users. You can write all the bad points and still you are only but a small not important voice. So my advice, just move on. Be a photographer not a forum poster. Show that you have a more capable system. Get that attention not here. Here is not for you to air your grouses.

 

[tommyk]

Bro, this is a forum where its common to have differing opinions.

We really are not living in countries that does not allow its citizen to have too many opinions.

The original question when i started this thread was - who could possibly buy the company olympus.

And if you go through most of our replies, we are just saying stuff from our minds. We never did say bad things about olympus users.

A forum is to post opinion - even for photographers.

For those who is not keen to post anything, then don't. It is not very polite to ask the rest not to post.

 

[ricohflex]

This is an interesting article.

How Canon, Nikon and other Japanese camera companies are fighting for survival in the Smartphone era

There were 100 million digital cameras shipped in the iPhone's first year, 2007. By 2018, the digital camera market had declined by roughly 80%. Of Japan's eight digital camera makers, only one had sales and profit growth in the most recent year. But the Nikons and Canons of world think they...

www.cnbc.com

As pointed out in the article, some companies have other cash cow lines of business to rely on, allowing them to have the luxury of sustaining a camera division that is losing vast amounts of money continuously for many years; with an ever decreasing market share.
Olympus has a medical endoscope business that is doing well.
Huawei P40 Pro Premium smartphone has 5 cameras, (maybe)52MP and a 10x so-called Leica optical zoom - on a very small sensor. This and similar smart phones will compete with digital cameras, especially for those customers who do not mind small sensors.
Presumably one way to differentiate a camera product from the new wave of smartphones is to have a big sensor.
Finally the market will decide who lives and who dies.

 

[Pitachu]

This is an interesting article.

How Canon, Nikon and other Japanese camera companies are fighting for survival in the Smartphone era

There were 100 million digital cameras shipped in the iPhone's first year, 2007. By 2018, the digital camera market had declined by roughly 80%. Of Japan's eight digital camera makers, only one had sales and profit growth in the most recent year. But the Nikons and Canons of world think they...

www.cnbc.com

As pointed out in the article, some companies have other cash cow lines of business to rely on, allowing them to have the luxury of sustaining a camera division that is losing vast amounts of money continuously for many years; with an ever decreasing market share.
Olympus has a medical endoscope business that is doing well.
Huawei P40 Pro Premium smartphone has 5 cameras, (maybe)52MP and a 10x so-called Leica optical zoom - on a very small sensor. This and similar smart phones will compete with digital cameras, especially for those customers who do not mind small sensors.
Presumably one way to differentiate a camera product from the new wave of smartphones is to have a big sensor.
Finally the market will decide who lives and who dies.

Good article pointing out that the digital camera market has declined 80%. I think that is very true. In my hiking and travel group, among the 10 of us, only 2 of us are still using cameras instead of mobile phones to take photos during our overseas trips. Hence, the remaining 20% are hobbyist and professionals, who appreciates the extra features on a camera which is difficult to achieve on a mobile phone.

Yes, phones Manufacturers can come up with features like 52MP and 10x zoom, but they are more like a marketing gimmick. If you try to do birding with phones with 10x zoom or use aperture priority on a mobile phone, you will know that it is too clumsy and does not really work Every camera from Medium Format to Tough Compacts to Sports Camera GoPros and even Mobile Phone Cameras has its use in different situations, and over the years I have tried all of them.

 

[sadwitch]

Then REAL question should be "Is olympus camera division on sale" ? in the first place rather than who could or would buy?...

If and IF it did happen, i think sony would swoop since it already owns a part of olympus just like how they swoop minolta. Then sony can be a step closer to be number 1 in the market.

Mobile phone photography doesn't have the tactile engagement when photographing compared to using ILC systems... And it's the engagement that some people look for when it comes to choosing the equipment they use not just the final results or outright image quality. Its a shrinking market, but it'll be here for a while.

 

[Pitachu]

Then REAL question should be "Is olympus camera division on sale" ? in the first place rather than who could or would buy?...

If and IF it did happen, i think sony would swoop since it already owns a part of olympus just like how they swoop minolta. Then sony can be a step closer to be number 1 in the market.

Mobile phone photography doesn't have the tactile engagement when photographing compared to using ILC systems... And it's the engagement that some people look for when it comes to choosing the equipment they use not just the final results or outright image quality. Its a shrinking market, but it'll be here for a while.

I would rather Sony owns part of Olympus and not take over Olympus. It is good that Olympus maintains its culture (of getting its users to use the cameras to shoot various situations). I had 3 Sony Cameras and the number of events and workshops they organize for users is really pale in comparison to Olympus. Olympus in Singapore and Malaysia almost have workshop in all topics (eg. Macro, Birding, Street Photo, Portraits etc) every weekend.

By now, all of you know I am very supportive of Olympus, because all these workshops arouse my interest in Photography again.

End Result: I sold one of my Sony Cameras, keep the other one as a underwater camera since I bought the housing already and leave the 3rd one to my son to use the 3rd one. Dont get me wrong. Sony cameras probably have superior technical capabilities. But right now, I am having so much fun with my Olympus with their weekly workshops.

 

[tommyk]

Olympus does a lot of activities for photographer but not Sony. Sony is already so successful with their products that they don't need to do these focus groups/event outing.

I am not so sure it makes sense for Sony to buy a small sensor manufacturer like Olympus which is now like a niche player. Sony could easily buy the more mainstream players (provided if they are for sale).

Olympus would probably suit a deep pocket suitor who is a not in this space yet so that they can use some of these technologies in a complimentary way.

Of course these are only the view of a keyboard warrior who luckily live in a supposedly free country that allows differences in opinion.

 

[ricohflex]

In 2012/2013 Olympus had a financial scandal and was about to collapse. Sony was the saviour and bought 11.5% of Olympus, paying 50 Billion Yen. Some time later, Sony reduced its stake to 5%. Sony has in Aug/Sep 2019 sold its entire 5% stake in Olympus. Back to Olympus in a share buy back scheme.
Sony does not own any part of Olympus in 2020.
This is a good story. Because it shows how Japan companies help each other in a crisis.
Olympus recovered and is steady again, but is reliant on medical endoscope business.
If Olympus does not sell off its Camera Imaging Division, it may be because:
1) Olympus does not want to sell; or
2) Wants to sell but there are no buyers.
In happier times in the past, when one camera company closes, others buy it up. Staff continue working, although for another boss.
For example, Sony buys Konica-Minolta in 2005.
For example, Hoya bought Pentax in 2008, then sold it to Ricoh in 2011.
In 2020, with 80% of digital camera market lost to smartphones, saviour buyers are harder to find.
Japan is homogeneous (very few foreign talents tolerated in Japan) and united. MITI is powerful and can issue edicts to Japan businesses.
Japan would want to keep this engineering prowess within the country. And not lose the scientists/high level technical staff to companies from China or South Korea.

 

[sadwitch]

I would rather Sony owns part of Olympus and not take over Olympus. It is good that Olympus maintains its culture (of getting its users to use the cameras to shoot various situations). I had 3 Sony Cameras and the number of events and workshops they organize for users is really pale in comparison to Olympus. Olympus in Singapore and Malaysia almost have workshop in all topics (eg. Macro, Birding, Street Photo, Portraits etc) every weekend.

By now, all of you know I am very supportive of Olympus, because all these workshops arouse my interest in Photography again.

End Result: I sold one of my Sony Cameras, keep the other one as a underwater camera since I bought the housing already and leave the 3rd one to my son to use the 3rd one. Dont get me wrong. Sony cameras probably have superior technical capabilities. But right now, I am having so much fun with my Olympus with their weekly workshops.

YES.... it's the fun/engaging factor... not worrying (weather sealing) or fumbling around equipment (overall size and weight and need for stabilisation) that Olympus system has to offer which probably make it a viable photographic equipment for some people. In the end when making a photograph, I always think its more important to have "Depth of feel" instead of "depth of field".

Also I prefer a 16MP of sharply executed photo than a 60MP photo with a fuzzy concept.

 

[sadwitch]

If Sony sits on their laurels without considering engagement activities, in the long run they'll lose out.

And for anyone who has held a system camera, they'll know its not just a matter of pressing a button like mobile phones.
You can't expect a newbie who is interested in getting into a system camera to pick something up and know immediately how to use it fully.

I even wonder for people who's trying a system camera for the first time, how can they understand immediately how to use an optical viewfinder to compose if there's no one explaining how cameras work.

Olympus does a lot of activities for photographer but not Sony. Sony is already so successful with their products that they don't need to do these focus groups/event outing.

I am not so sure it makes sense for Sony to buy a small sensor manufacturer like Olympus which is now like a niche player. Sony could easily buy the more mainstream players (provided if they are for sale).

Olympus would probably suit a deep pocket suitor who is a not in this space yet so that they can use some of these technologies in a complimentary way.

Of course these are only the view of a keyboard warrior who luckily live in a supposedly free country that allows differences in opinion.

 

[tommyk]

A camera system andd all its functionalities takes time to learn, hence most users will only use a portion of its functionalities.

No matter how "user friendly" Olympus is for the user, i think it is often over looked. The few of the Oly users here can appreciate it, does not mean the majority will. Most people will likely just want something easy to shoot and quick.

And no matter how small and light m4/3 is, the difference in size and weight between Fuji, mirrorless Canon & Nikon and sony apsc mirrorless is very marginal.
How many users will care if their system is only 0.1 or 0.2 kg heavier and 1 cm wider?

And now the king of small sensor - Samsung is here with its 100mp s20 handphone.

So the future is really bleak for some system, market changes will cause them to lose their traditional base quickly.

 

[sadwitch]

Yes people will choose and pick base on what the system has to offer of course and if its too difficult in the long run they'll just exit and shoot with mobile...

The omd series has a steep learning curve which most review sites bash. Which makes workshops more important for hands on and learning through other users.

If an user just want quick and easy, system cameras may not be their best tool. An iphone or pixel or whatever would fair much better.

Difference in size and weight can't be felt based on specs only. It needs hands on feel, packing for trips, good ergonomics for steady holding and actual handling.

I think xiaomi has a 108MP phone on the horizon but does that make them king? Maybe king for spec sheet chaser and bragging rights. For me a google pixel easily wins.

The future is bleak for earth with climate change and trade wars and natural disasters and crazy weather and rapid decline of birth rate in Singapore.

For photography its just a tool, if by using some system can make people feel so bad, i think they should stop.... there are many other things out there to make you smile.

A camera system andd all its functionalities takes time to learn, hence most users will only use a portion of its functionalities.

No matter how "user friendly" Olympus is for the user, i think it is often over looked. The few of the Oly users here can appreciate it, does not mean the majority will. Most people will likely just want something easy to shoot and quick.

And no matter how small and light m4/3 is, the difference in size and weight between Fuji, mirrorless Canon & Nikon and sony apsc mirrorless is very marginal.
How many users will care if their system is only 0.1 or 0.2 kg heavier and 1 cm wider?

And now the king of small sensor - Samsung is here with its 100mp s20 handphone.

So the future is really bleak for some system, market changes will cause them to lose their traditional base quickly.

 

[Pitachu]

The omd series has a steep learning curve which most review sites bash. Which makes workshops more important for hands on and learning through other users.

I just started with Olympus a few months ago, so I am not sure when in the OMD series Olympus comes out with the super control panel where 1 press of the buttons, I can access almost all functions. https://blog.martinbelan.com/2014/0...ol-panel-on-the-olympus-om-d-and-pen-cameras/

Anyway, I have used Canon, Fujifilm, Nikon, Sony and every brand Menu system is complicated ant takes time to master. During the launch of the EM5 Mk3, I was taught how to access most of the EM5 iii functions in a few minutes, when the staff shows me the front and back dial (for aperature/shutter speed & exp compensation) and the rest just by pressing a button.

It is only later in other workshops like cityscape that I learn how to use features like Keystone Compensation and Fish Eye De-Fish functions embedded in the menu. Yes, it is complicated and there are some functions I have not yet fully understood. And maybe its because I never need them

 

[ricohflex]

Sony does have periodic events and activities for its users/owners - unfortunately NOT here in Singapore. But in Malaysia and they are subsidised by Sony Malaysia. More like a reward to users for having chosen Sony camera. Hotel stay in a particular Malaysian city, model photo shoot, good dinners, the works. It is generous. Unfortunately, Sony digital cameras have the worst and most user-unfriendly menu system in the world.

In the past Olympus MFT had less mirrorless competition. But now Leica, Fuji, Canon and Nikon are competitors. Pentax is good but under-rated.
The greatest weapon of Canon & Nikon is User Base and ability to use old lenses. Pentax can also use old lenses.
Leica M series digital cameras can use the old M lenses. This is a big plus. Especially when the top lenses cost a few thousand dollars each.

Why did Canon & Nikon take so long? It may be the correct decision. Because if a company jumps in too early, it can make costly and systemic errors.
Prices of full frame sensors must drop and sensor capability improve. Up till the opportune moment for Canon & Nikon to enter the race.
Systemic errors are deadly. A company that jumped in early must be willing to change its fundamental concept when technology has improved.
Clinging on to MFT may not be a winning strategy in long run.
A company that jumped in early must be willing to give up completely. Like Epson RD1 (began March 2004 and discontinued in 2007).

 

[tommyk]

So let's have a 10 year outlook summary for the major manufacturers and see your opinions :

Canon, Nikon - Will survive the dramatic changes and the market shrinkage by virtue of them changing along with consumers demand. Have too large a historical usage base to fail.

Sony - Will become the leading player if play its card right including converting all types of users (pro, hobbyist, new) from other makers

Fuji - Has some clear distinction in the x-mount system that will continue to be a leading non- Big 3 (Canon, Nikon, Sony) player

Panasonic - Full frame will survive if it can come out with cheaper bodies and more lenses. Known to innovate well. M4/3 is in peril.

Olympus - Needs to go large sensor to survive. M4/3 will surely not be missed. Otherwise will only drain resources from its rich parents. More likely to exit camera business.

Pentax - Just barely, probably sold again.

Sigma - Lenses will survive. Camera system will not.

Ricoh - Can they survive with good niche products, eg : GRIII etc... ? In 10 years, the niche camera products are on our smartphones!

The interchangeable camera system manufacturers are likely only

Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji and Panasonic

They will still be fighting over a declining market, especially to better camera phones and the incredible innovation from Samsung, Google, Apple, Huawei etc..

In 10 years, it will only left to 5 camera systems

Please agree and/or disagree. Luckily, you wont get killed or sent to labour camps.

 

[tommyk]

I am to be asked to elaborate on Olympus's 10 year outlook, here is it -

Olympus m4/3 system which started revolutionizing the digital cameras since 2010 will find itself in an unenviable position of trying to pursue new camera users and entice professional photographers into their m4/3 system. It naturally takes lots of marketing and resources to brand their products. Globally, existing Olympus users declare their system as best in class. Non-users cannot be sold on this branding, because the majority cannot differentiate advanced camera technology. Most camera users just follow the market leaders so that they won't make a mistake to go for a non leading system that their peers keep on questioning them. In Singapore country - Bro, Full Frame or APSC sensor tuibo?

In the last days of Olympus m4/3 system, they will offer great discounts, lots of glitzy events and sign up global celebrities eg Mbappe, Ronaldo to market their products. (Remember Ronaldo's shoppee great smile). Low and behold, the one last great effort fails and they make a global announcement to thank all their loyal users. In the end, their loyal users will be left with great pictures taken with the m4/3, but with no future upgrades and no new toys to play with. They too will eventually migrate to the rest of the 5 and start dumpling the almost worthless system in the resale market eg : Classifieds at CS. What started the digital camera revolution and brought them to the mainstream will remain a favourite case study of the Top Business Schools : Olympus Camera - where did it all go so wrong?

I write this with sadness but we all know that truth will always hurt (a little).

 

[Blu-By-U]

Somehow I don't share your views. Have a look at the FF market, it's packed. Why not concentrate on what you do best now? Develop glass. entice with better glass. a path of upgrade and variety. If you look at the development of sensors and new innovations spearheaded by them smartphones. 10 years is a long time and in that time, and if I am still taking photographs, I doubt I would want anything bigger and heavier. I may even downsize to a 1" sensor.

As far as the imaging division of olympus, I doubt it will be sold. those scopes and and medical equipments needs to record and actively capture images.Oly can't sell something they need.

 

[ricohflex]

Leica and Hasselblad are niche players with their following. The quality of their lenses is beyond dispute. They are priced at the high end. They are safe as long as they emphasise QUALITY - big sensors (full frame or medium format) and follow electronic advancements. That means they choose to compete in a different category. Leica wisely upgraded to 47MP in SL2. They make cameras for a different type of users who are rich. Most use it for leisure as a hobby.

The Canon 1DX Mk3 has a 20.1MP and is made for photographers covering 2020 Tokyo Olympics. A different criteria. Superb AF that can follow focus a fast moving object. Very fast throughput and big buffer. Ability to send photos quickly (WFT-E9) back to news agency (securely to prevent stealing of the images by hackers) is important for a reporter. Getting the scoop (1st to report breaking news) for a news photo is a big deal to a reporter.

Sensor size improvement is a bit like memory card progress. As time passes, price will drop as sensor size increases.
In 2030, will Olympus still insist on MFT? What do you think?

Film was a mature industry with more than 100 years development history before it died.
Digital photography recently started and in future great advances (some of which we cannot imagine now) will be made.

Sony makes so much money selling sensors to other camera companies and to mobile phone manufacturers.

 

[sadwitch]

I am to be asked to elaborate on Olympus's 10 year outlook, here is it -

Olympus m4/3 system which started revolutionizing the digital cameras since 2010 will find itself in an unenviable position of trying to pursue new camera users and entice professional photographers into their m4/3 system. It naturally takes lots of marketing and resources to brand their products. Globally, existing Olympus users declare their system as best in class. Non-users cannot be sold on this branding, because the majority cannot differentiate advanced camera technology. Most camera users just follow the market leaders so that they won't make a mistake to go for a non leading system that their peers keep on questioning them. In Singapore country - Bro, Full Frame or APSC sensor tuibo?

In the last days of Olympus m4/3 system, they will offer great discounts, lots of glitzy events and sign up global celebrities eg Mbappe, Ronaldo to market their products. (Remember Ronaldo's shoppee great smile). Low and behold, the one last great effort fails and they make a global announcement to thank all their loyal users. In the end, their loyal users will be left with great pictures taken with the m4/3, but with no future upgrades and no new toys to play with. They too will eventually migrate to the rest of the 5 and start dumpling the almost worthless system in the resale market eg : Classifieds at CS. What started the digital camera revolution and brought them to the mainstream will remain a favourite case study of the Top Business Schools : Olympus Camera - where did it all go so wrong?

I write this with sadness but we all know that truth will always hurt (a little).

Every tool has a life. It's what and how we use the tool during it's lifetime makes it worthwhile. I was using the Olympus E-system which die, but i just moved on to micro 43. And if it dies i'll just go on to the next better player if I'm still photographing.

To me mirrored APSC is the dying format. Canon EFS system is dying, same for Nikon's DX and sony E with the launch of their mirrorless full frame....Shall we give our eulogy now to these system now?

Fujifilm is making capable mirrorless apsc systems but one thing they still lack is stabilisation in all bodies

If you want a system to be "valuable", think only leica's can hold its value.

 

[Pitachu]

I cannot understand why so many people feel Olympus should not hang on to Micro 4/3 and move to Full Frame format

I personally feel that it is a even bigger challenge for Olympus or any other manufacturer to move into Full Frame now. After all, what technology or value proposition do they have against Sony or Canon or Nikon, who already have a huge customer base. I am not sure how successful will Panasonic Full frame be.......maybe it can appeal to its video customers.

I believed Olympus choose to stay on Micro 4/3 because even though it is a much smaller market, this is what this niche group of customers want, a more compact system with high quality interchangeable lens. It has only 1 competitor (Panasonic) and its range of Leica lenses compliments Olympus range.

No one can say for sure whether Micro 4/3 or any other format will be around in 10 years time. For me, in the event Micro 4/3 is gone one day and if Olympus venture into FF, I may switch to other brands with a more advanced body and wider range of lenses compared to Olympus trying to start from scratch in Full Frame Format.