noob questions


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pfurr

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Jun 20, 2008
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hihi, i'm helping my dad scout for a video camera that can help him with coaching. he's a golf coach and needs to video people and do a frame by frame to analyse the golf swing after. according to him, a golf swing takes between 1-2 seconds to complete, so here is the question:

whats a recommended minimum fps he needs to get in order to get an adequate step by step view of a person's golf swing? he insists that he needs a camera that videos at 100fps but i think its super overkill and that narrows the camera options by so much.

and,

do you know of any dslrs/prosumers that can achieve that fps without the price going too over the top? he wants a camera that can take photos too, but concedes that if really no choice, he will get a video cam intsead.

any other advice? thanks so much in advance. :)
 

Probably the most cost-effective option is to get an NTSC type videocam that shoots 60 interlaced fields per second. If you shoot with a high shutter speed, e.g. 1/250s the frame-by-frame playback should be pretty sharp. A PAL videocam will be easier to buy, and will shoot at 50 fields per second which is not too far behind.

If you have more (a lot more) budget, the Sony EX1 can overcrank at 60 progressive frames per second and will slow down wonderfully, however I think it's probably overkill for what you need.
 

Hi,

I just bought a consumer videocam (Canon HG20) with the exact same purpose in mind - just that mine wasn't golf shots, but swimming, so I might be able to help you out with this. I am also doing frame analysis, but on a much lesser scale.

If your dad insists on 100fps, just go look for a camcorder with slow motion recording feature. There are a number of videocams that can record in slow motion for a few seconds (which should be enough). Not sure what models they are, just google around of go to the camcorderinfo.com reviews.

However, I wish him best of luck doing the frame analysis at 100fps though. My professor didn't need 100fps, he only needed 30 fps (normal NTSC) but we had mass amounts: 50+ swimmers (75+ minutes) worth of swimming footage split over 5 people to clear.................

Most video cameras can take still photos as well, but most P&S digital camera can easily beat them in terms of picture quality.

You might want to ask your dad about these priorities:

- Budget ($$)
- Not so essential parts of video quality (e.g. colour, anything that doesn't affect resolution and sharpness etc)
- Size / portability
- Ease of use
- Hi Def / Std Def
- Compatibility of format with other people's computers (i.e. less need to edit videos)

These do influence the type of camera that you might want to look at.

Another thing you should look at NSTC and PAL. This is important because they have different frame rates, and will affect the video. If your dad doesn't mind NTSC he could save a bit if he buys high end consumer models from pricejapan or US and ship to Singapore (for the lower end its not worth the trouble).

Hope this helps you.
 

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Probably the most cost-effective option is to get an NTSC type videocam that shoots 60 interlaced fields per second. If you shoot with a high shutter speed, e.g. 1/250s the frame-by-frame playback should be pretty sharp. A PAL videocam will be easier to buy, and will shoot at 50 fields per second which is not too far behind.

If you have more (a lot more) budget, the Sony EX1 can overcrank at 60 progressive frames per second and will slow down wonderfully, however I think it's probably overkill for what you need.

hmm. what does overcranking do? and do you have any idea whats an acceptable fps without too much blurriness? thanks for the suggestions so far! :D

Hi,

I just bought a consumer videocam (Canon HG20) with the exact same purpose in mind - just that mine wasn't golf shots, but swimming, so I might be able to help you out with this. I am also doing frame analysis, but on a much lesser scale.

If your dad insists on 100fps, just go look for a camcorder with slow motion recording feature. There are a number of videocams that can record in slow motion for a few seconds (which should be enough). Not sure what models they are, just google around of go to the camcorderinfo.com reviews.

However, I wish him best of luck doing the frame analysis at 100fps though. My professor didn't need 100fps, he only needed 30 fps (normal NTSC) but we had mass amounts: 50+ swimmers (75+ minutes) worth of swimming footage split over 5 people to clear.................

Most video cameras can take still photos as well, but most P&S digital camera can easily beat them in terms of picture quality.

You might want to ask your dad about these priorities:

- Budget ($$)
- Not so essential parts of video quality (e.g. colour, anything that doesn't affect resolution and sharpness etc)
- Size / portability
- Ease of use
- Hi Def / Std Def
- Compatibility of format with other people's computers (i.e. less need to edit videos)

These do influence the type of camera that you might want to look at.

Another thing you should look at NSTC and PAL. This is important because they have different frame rates, and will affect the video. If your dad doesn't mind NTSC he could save a bit if he buys high end consumer models from pricejapan or US and ship to Singapore (for the lower end its not worth the trouble).

Hope this helps you.

thanks so much for the insight! i kept telling him 100fps is quite crazy, but i couldnt back it up for sure so i thought i'd check. what do you think is an acceptable frame rate to get unblurry frames for analysis? i know he will need to point out things like - oh your hand should be this way and not this way, your arm should be like that. hence it shouldnt be blurry. i understand that w higher fps he will definitely need a larger budget and a crazy ass computer able to upload the footage fast enough so its economical, but somewhere in the back of my mind, 100 just seems like overkill.

my dad's a closet photographer, he used to be into photography until it became too expensive, and i would love to recommend him a dslr that can double as a camera for his work too so i was wondering if the d90 can do the job?

but what i read from above, you used a camera thats 30fps? then is that more than enough? that'll open up so so many more cameras for us to choose from.

anw,

- Budget ($$): less than 2k, less than 1k even better but i know for dslr system that quite impossible. haha.
- Not so essential parts of video quality (e.g. colour, anything that doesn't affect resolution and sharpness etc): i'm assuming you mean the things he doesnt really care too much about? colour, file format
- Size / portability: size doesnt really matter. my dad's quite fat, so fat man + fat camera = dont look so fat. a matter of proportions i suppose. :D
- Ease of use: quite user friendly but advanced features wont faze him, i can explain it and he catches it quite fast.
- Hi Def / Std Def: i dont think it really matters.
- Compatibility of format with other people's computers (i.e. less need to edit videos): not really. just as long as its compatible w his laptop which runs on a windows system. he might get a cheap laptop to complement the camera so probably basic specs with his own computer program to slow down things and draw lines like you see on the pga.

taking photos is definitely a bonus, but if cannot then he's ok to settle for a dedicated video cam that can do the job.

and ultimately, the one w the best value is the best option. :) haha. thats my dad. (most other dads too i suppose).
 

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Higher than NTSC frame rate is uncommon. The few affordable videocams that support it, e.g. the Sanyo Xacti 1010, can only shoot high frame rate with low resolution, so this is probably not a good solution for you.

If you want to play back frame by frame, what is important is shutter speed rather than frame rate. A fast shutter speed will give you a sharp image with less motion blur. Be aware that many of the cams in your price range do not allow you to set the shutter speed manually, especially Sony cams. Canon cams usually have a good set of manual controls, including shutter speed.

Overcranking is shooting at a higher frame rate so that when you play back at normal frame rate the video is in slow motion. Not sure if this is what you want, but anyway you can apply a slo-mo effect to normal footage in a video editor. The results will not be as smooth as true overcranking, but if you are interested in frame by frame playback then maybe it is good enough?
 

I am one of the editors for Asian Tour Weekly golf shows, and the footage acquired are usually in 25fps. In some of the slow motioned video clips, it is indeed hard to do proper analysis of the swing.

Like what Jaegersing mentioned, if video resolution is not an issue, some of the consumer grade cameras like the Xacti or certain models of Casio / Olympus digital still cameras can do high FPS capture, but at a low resolution of perhaps 320x240 size or even smaller.

Panasonic P2 or XDCAM EX series can do slightly higher than normal FPS recording which is called Overcranking, but still not may not be as precise in video capturing for critical motion analysis. :thumbsup:
 

It would be quite hard to find a camera that can do that, usually cameras only do about 24/25fps... try to find a camera that comes with a variable speed controller, but those would only come with very high-end professional cameras.... and even harder to find, if you're intending to shoot on digital.

on a side note, high FPS are best achieved using film cameras... but your cost will go waaay high
 

Film cameras? Scarlet? His budget is $2K leh! :)
 

Why not try 720p or 1080p for filming? I hear that the new Sanyo models are 1080p......

If your budget is $2K, what about getting multiple cameras and filming the swing from different angles? Just a suggestion :)

For my setup, we bought a lot of cheapo $60 NTSC China cameras, started them recording, put them in self made DIY acrylic casings, then put the entire casings in different places in the swimming pool. I.e. filming swimming from different angles. The Canon HG20 would be put a distance away on a tripod filming the entire pool so as to track the speed of the fella. We even had a moving casing following the swimmer.

Why we used cheapo China cameras is simple: Since something was probably gonna go wrong anyway, we might as well cut our losses by using cheapo cameras. We had China scholars, so we got the cameras cheap.

All the best to you
 

Seriously..
At this budget nothing really works well enough..
If you wish for a professional setup, it really does become very ex..
So balance between price and quality..
The idea that 60 frames interlace is better than 50 frames interlace is not correct..
Interlace is a video format so effectively it's still 30 frames or 25 frames...
I've done sports videography before and know for a matter of fact that video at 25fps is definitely not sufficient for this kind of work..
Plus interlacing doesn't help much..
Video at 100fps is not out of the question..
Depending on what's necessary for your dad..

If you wish to do video, go for progressive filming..
Preferably one with over-cranking as suggested..
But price becomes quite ex..
Forget about 100fps..
Only film cameras/motion cameras are capable of such things..
Otherwise go for a still camera and press the shutter at the appropriate timing..
May take some practice but at least you get frame by frame scenes that are clear..
Heard from a friend that one of the new still consumer cameras can record up to 40fps..
That's quite good..
Don't really need dslr..
Not sure what model though..
 

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