Anyone here ever wanted to become pro PG but gave up?

[Astroboy77]

I don't quite agree with about client don't care about quality stuff anymore. On the contrary, there are the increasing number of clients are looking for better things. As the society is growing richer, there is always a demand in better things.

I have heard enough, "your competitor is giving me a better pricing", but the fact that if they call you back to tell you that, they want your service. Of course, winning the job is one thing, meeting expectation is easy but exceeding expectation is not. So the aim is to exceed the expectation every single time.

It is about having the right product for the right people at the right price.

There are photographers who command 5-6 figures for family photography... and I do believe if those photographers exist, there is no short of client who wants quality work.

Regards,

Hart

ya i do agree society is growing rich, so does the amount of ppl going into photography.. And i also agree there photographers who commanding high figure for shooting.. but really are there really enough clients for them? and yes there no short of clients who wants quality work but doesnt mean the clients will willingly to pay premier prices!...as most singaporean always say " they wan cheap and good"....

 

[chanjyj]

I don't quite agree with about client don't care about quality stuff anymore. On the contrary, there are the increasing number of clients are looking for better things. As the society is growing richer, there is always a demand in better things.

I have heard enough, "your competitor is giving me a better pricing", but the fact that if they call you back to tell you that, they want your service. Of course, winning the job is one thing, meeting expectation is easy but exceeding expectation is not. So the aim is to exceed the expectation every single time.

It is about having the right product for the right people at the right price.

There are photographers who command 5-6 figures for family photography... and I do believe if those photographers exist, there is no short of client who wants quality work.

Regards,

Hart

Sure, they care about quality. But the Singaporean mentality cares about the cost too.
Different culture from the western countries where quality is to be achieved no matter the cost.

Too bad I can't make it on the 14th - or we'd have a long chat on SG culture

 

[Agetan]

Yes, i know the mentality of large proportion of Singaporean who want cheap stuff but its not all. There is good reason why photog should not compete in price.

The sooner the photog come together the easier it gets to be pro photog.

I say so because i know there are good portion of local client who will pay for what they want and yes, there are many of them.

Hart

 

[Astroboy77]

Yes, i know the mentality of large proportion of Singaporean who want cheap stuff but its not all. There is good reason why photog should not compete in price.

The sooner the photog come together the easier it gets to be pro photog.

I say so because i know there are good portion of local client who will pay for what they want and yes, there are many of them.

Hart

yes it easier to say "photog should not compete in price", but in such a harsh reality world, if dun compete it will be hard to survive.

let me give u a example:

A couple like the works of photog A and photog B. so the couple arrange to meet photog A first and enquire abt price which the couple say they need to think before confirming. then the couple went to meet photog B and in fact photog B quote much higher then photog A. so the couple feel photog A is better choice. however when photog B realise the couple intention. he ask the couple the real reason, so when photog B know the price quoted by photog A, photog B immediately reduce the price and the couple immediately accept n confirm w photog B. End up photog A lose a potential client... :cry:


Glad to know that there a good portion of local client who will pay for what they want..but sad to say i believe this group belong to the exclusive where they will look for the more reputable pro which are being recommended to them. It the middle group of pro photog which are in the dangerous zone.. they are caught in between the more reputable pro and the wannabe pro...

 

[theRBK]

yes it easier to say "photog should not compete in price", but in such a harsh reality world, if dun compete it will be hard to survive.

not competing in price doesn't mean don't compete at all and wait to die... provide better service or unique expertise, find a niche and fill it... be creative in the ways to add value... study the market...

ultimately, the aim is to make the price charged really worth it for the client... if it comes to the point where one charges so little just to get clients to sign on, is it still worth the effort?... remember, photography is supposed to be a "creative" industry, so be creative in finding ways to make it work...

 

[Astroboy77]

not competing in price doesn't mean don't compete at all and wait to die... provide better service or unique expertise, find a niche and fill it... be creative in the ways to add value... study the market...

ultimately, the aim is to make the price charged really worth it for the client... if it comes to the point where one charges so little just to get clients to sign on, is it still worth the effort?... remember, photography is supposed to be a "creative" industry, so be creative in finding ways to make it work...

yup agree to what you say. but there always a limit to find tat niche n fill it in.. it not whether we are able to find ways to add in value.. but it the way the world has changes that now it seem there more supply then demand.. or maybe just in our little tiny red dot country. it is getting scary that no matter how unique one can shoot. it is still not enough to convince the client to sign on.... unless it those exclusive clients that are willingly to pay for it....

 

[Agetan]

Ah, classic example but as i said, if u do that enough to win the job then your usual price will become cheaper as words spread faster than wild fire.

Your discounted price now become your normal price and process goes on and soon you will realise that jobs become desperate.

If low price is a selling point, then one will be in trouble.

If that what other photog want to do, let them.

I dont have any discount policy so my client know that they are paying like everyone else so no complaint abt pricing. So i totally disagree on winning jobs because of pricing.

I dont market my wedding service and seems that i book every genuine wedding enquiry despite no special deals so guess pricing is not everything.

Once again, if one would like to compete, please it should be abt service and quality of work not pricing.

Hart

 

[Astroboy77]

Ah, classic example but as i said, if u do that enough to win the job then your usual price will become cheaper as words spread faster than wild fire.

Your discounted price now become your normal price and process goes on and soon you will realise that jobs become desperate.

If low price is a selling point, then one will be in trouble.

If that what other photog want to do, let them.

I dont have any discount policy so my client know that they are paying like everyone else so no complaint abt pricing. So i totally disagree on winning jobs because of pricing.

I dont market my wedding service and seems that i book every genuine wedding enquiry despite no special deals so guess pricing is not everything.

Once again, if one would like to compete, please it should be abt service and quality of work not pricing.

Hart

sad to say not every photog will think like you.. even if we wanted to focus on service and quality of works... other photog instead use pricing as a deadly weapon.. we will be in the losing end.. yes we can ignore them.. but for how long can one withstand the unfairness?... haiz...

that why i admire those photog who have strong will power and determination to succeed... :thumbsup:

 

[Agetan]

interesting that people actually see losing a job due to pricing is detrimental... What I see is that if the photographer is playing with pricing, they are in the losing end, aren't they?

On the other hand, why not focus the energy in creating your line of work that client wants?

If your work is what they want, they will buy it...

I leave the thought to people who care to think otherwise...

Hart

 

[catchlights]

sad to say not every photog will think like you.. even if we wanted to focus on service and quality of works... other photog instead use pricing as a deadly weapon.. we will be in the losing end.. yes we can ignore them.. but for how long can one withstand the unfairness?... haiz...

that why i admire those photog who have strong will power and determination to succeed... :thumbsup:

for those peoplewho play on low pricing strategy, have you ever though of how many of them will come and go within a year? you want to fight with them with low price, they are like regiment with countless army, one down, two come in, you will lose out for sure.

you will not be happy even you able win all the customers over, the customers will not be happy with your price, you will not happen with what customers willing to pay.
why don't just let it be, low price photographers serve low price customers, everybody happy.

 

[Priscilia]

I think it is an assumption that just because you charge low, you will have a hard time maintaining your business in the long run. There are many such photographers who can't be bothered with their precious time to post their opinions over here. So it doesn't mean they don't exist. Simply put, there is a wide range of clients to serve in the photography industry. It doesn't mean when one charges low, he is not doing well. And neither does it mean his skills are lousy. I have a accountant neighbour who can take really beautiful pictures, arguably matching pro standards, but to him, photography is just a hobby and never a full-time career option. (Of course, as a qualified accountant, he can command a lot more salary than being a photographer.)

IMHO, I find it also unjustified for other higher charging photographers to put down those who charge cheaply. For those who charge relatively more, you are constantly exposed to your peers who charge like you or even higher, and you mingle with a certain group of clients with certain expectations and income group. So you kind of imply those "low-chargers" are like lower-class people who serve cheapskate couples. But common sense tells you not all couples have the same kind of social background or thinking.

For eg, not everyone will be foolish with their hard-earned money to go overseas for a bridal shoot if they are tight on budget, or hire a photographer who charges more than their one month's salary. In fact, you'd be surprise to find high-earning couples (and I mean those who earn big five figure sums per month!) who don't mind getting their friends to photograph their weddings, while the low-income HDB dwellers will want to spend lavishly on photography. At the end of it all, as long as the couple are happy (whether they are wise or foolish in handling their finances is another story), that's what matters.

As for photographers who reduce price to match or better another photographer, I don't think the mid to higher end ones will do that. But I also don't find it anything wrong. Photography is no different from a service-relatived industry. And it is very competitive here. It's similar to you trying to buy a computer and shop A give you discounts better than their competitors in order to attract customers. If the photographer who does that can survive, why not? It's his prerogative.

So we do need lower charging photographers to serve people with a lower budget in photography. Whether a photographer charges high or low, to me that's not an issue. What matters most is that they are responsible and deliver their jobs as promised.

 

[Agetan]

I think it is an assumption that just because you charge low, you will have a hard time maintaining your business in the long run. There are many such photographers who can't be bothered with their precious time to post their opinions over here. So it doesn't mean they don't exist. Simply put, there is a wide range of clients to serve in the photography industry. It doesn't mean when one charges low, he is not doing well. And neither does it mean his skills are lousy. I have a accountant neighbour who can take really beautiful pictures, arguably matching pro standards, but to him, photography is just a hobby and never a full-time career option. (Of course, as a qualified accountant, he can command a lot more salary than being a photographer.)

IMHO, I find it also unjustified for other higher charging photographers to put down those who charge cheaply. For those who charge relatively more, you are constantly exposed to your peers who charge like you or even higher, and you mingle with a certain group of clients with certain expectations and income group. So you kind of imply those "low-chargers" are like lower-class people who serve cheapskate couples. But common sense tells you not all couples have the same kind of social background or thinking.

For eg, not everyone will be foolish with their hard-earned money to go overseas for a bridal shoot if they are tight on budget, or hire a photographer who charges more than their one month's salary. In fact, you'd be surprise to find high-earning couples (and I mean those who earn big five figure sums per month!) who don't mind getting their friends to photograph their weddings, while the low-income HDB dwellers will want to spend lavishly on photography. At the end of it all, as long as the couple are happy (whether they are wise or foolish in handling their finances is another story), that's what matters.

As for photographers who reduce price to match or better another photographer, I don't think the mid to higher end ones will do that. But I also don't find it anything wrong. Photography is no different from a service-relatived industry. And it is very competitive here. It's similar to you trying to buy a computer and shop A give you discounts better than their competitors in order to attract customers. If the photographer who does that can survive, why not? It's his prerogative.

So we do need lower charging photographers to serve people with a lower budget in photography. Whether a photographer charges high or low, to me that's not an issue. What matters most is that they are responsible and deliver their jobs as promised.

You are right...

What I am saying is not how much one will charge and at what level of pricing they are.

At any pricing level, if one is to win job due to discount, in long terms, your average pricing is getting lower and everything else is going up and soon you will realise that work is harder to find.

By taking less that what you would like to charge, means that you have to take on more jobs to cover the loss of profit due to "discount".

So what I mean is that "pricing and discount" should not be the selling point ALONE.

Regards,

Hart

 

[Enchanted]

Shake the Ghost off -- fast !

I believe every Pro have had walked the path, and knew from his venture that low-pricing strategy should be short-lived and One must moved-up (Pricing) quickly once the "limit" has set and reached.

For the mis-informed, players doing the low-balling isn't wrong either ... it's a matter of choice (or insecurity, or both ) .. There are successful Ones in term of returns, but not necessary industry or consumers Recognition.

However, many flopped when fund and "fun" depleted ... In another words, You got 2-4 years to overcome the initial struggling years, and get a foothold, and if you don't, you are another contributor to the Singapore's Economy ... No wonder many local photographic hardware / trade shops and related companies flourishes, even in these bad times ! :bsmilie:


Anyway, there is no formula to one's success, but with a bit of luck, sheer hard work and a determination to succeed, and faith about your own work and plans.


Remember, you are responsible for your own Destiny -- it's Time to take Charge ! :thumbsup:

 

[juzgood1978]

Unfortunately in singapore, a photography at the most can be called a career but not a business.
What is a business? A good business is when it is providing service or selling product of high-value or is when you can leverage from it and also where you can have people working for you.
You work lesser but earn more.

For photography you cannot, you shoot 1hour you earn amount for that and 10 hours and the amount for that. You have 10 bookings a day you can only shoot 1. You can hardly profit while trying to hire people to shoot for you, once they are independent on their own they will start shooting for themselves because the nature of photography business does not allow you to profit much when hiring or being hired as the margin and rates is too low for long term.

People already shouting and screaming if one charge more than $5k a day.

Photography is not a business in singapore because it has no leverage and low-value. Remember the significant business cost involved too.

In another words one can hardly retire from it. And if you can hardly retire from it then it is just a career. At least for career if you end up being hired as a top managers and being paid 10-20k a month you chances of retiring is higher.

How many photographers are charging 10-20k a month? Even if there is people are crying foul over here in singapore..

In this kind of living standard now any business that doesn't nett you 10k a month it's better off working for people. Of course that is if the guy is out of job and photography jobs probably will tide him over if he thinks so.
Juz an opinion

 

[Enchanted]

Hahah ha ha ... Would like to share a recent story ( actually just received an email reply today ! ) ...

As usual, you meet-up your potential ROM customer, at your studio and do the SOP presentation and his initial brief about his ROM detail ...

Confidently, you would expect that it would be another "easy" sales and the ROM Photo job being secured ... Normally, from experiences, ROM clients who actually turn-up at your studio, success Rate is High ( >80% ), reasons being :
[1] Affordability - ROM photo service, under $500 buck ( for 2-hours )
[2] Less Competition - As of 2008, NOT many full-time Pros are interested or offered this, as the Margin is thin, verses the *RISK and lot of post-production works involved.
[3] Value-adds - We do offer professional wedding planning which included in the package !


Hahah hahah ... However, i was surprise to learned from his email reply :

------------------------------------ Email Message clip ------------------------------------------------
From: xxxxxx
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:17 PM
To: XXXXXX
Subject: Follow-up - ROM Day 22 May...

Hi Nick,

Although you work is most professional after seeing a number of photographers I have decided not to use your services.

The overall package and cost I was offered elsewhere was more suitable to me.

I must thank you for meeting me and taking time to show and discuss your work.

Best regards

------------------------------------ Email Message clip ------------------------------------------------


The above is a no brainer that the ROM client is looking for his "ideal package" ...

I thought I was a "Low-baller" offering Good works+value-adds with Good pricing, I guess many Beat me to that ! .. ha haha ha! :bsmilie:


For your entertainment :thumbsup:

- - - -

 

[sjackal]

Unfortunately in singapore, a photography at the most can be called a career but not a business.
What is a business? A good business is when it is providing service or selling product of high-value or is when you can leverage from it and also where you can have people working for you.
You work lesser but earn more.

For photography you cannot, you shoot 1hour you earn amount for that and 10 hours and the amount for that. You have 10 bookings a day you can only shoot 1. You can hardly profit while trying to hire people to shoot for you, once they are independent on their own they will start shooting for themselves because the nature of photography business does not allow you to profit much when hiring or being hired as the margin and rates is too low for long term.

People already shouting and screaming if one charge more than $5k a day.

Photography is not a business in singapore because it has no leverage and low-value. Remember the significant business cost involved too.

In another words one can hardly retire from it. And if you can hardly retire from it then it is just a career. At least for career if you end up being hired as a top managers and being paid 10-20k a month you chances of retiring is higher.

How many photographers are charging 10-20k a month? Even if there is people are crying foul over here in singapore..

In this kind of living standard now any business that doesn't nett you 10k a month it's better off working for people. Of course that is if the guy is out of job and photography jobs probably will tide him over if he thinks so.
Juz an opinion

You are right. It can qualifies as a small business at best, even with some aspects like post production sub-con-ed out, still labor intensive end of the day, not a system you can walk away and left it on auto-pilot. Most of the time it is also the owner who don't want to, even if he could, because this is a artistic profession.

It is the same overseas too, it is the same for other professions like doctors and lawyers too. But that doesn't stop people from choosing these professions. Professional photographers know well that they are not in this line to get rich, but to do what they want to do.

 

[Astroboy77]

Shake the Ghost off -- fast !

I believe every Pro have had walked the path, and knew from his venture that low-pricing strategy should be short-lived and One must moved-up (Pricing) quickly once the "limit" has set and reached.

For the mis-informed, players doing the low-balling isn't wrong either ... it's a matter of choice (or insecurity, or both ) .. There are successful Ones in term of returns, but not necessary industry or consumers Recognition.

However, many flopped when fund and "fun" depleted ... In another words, You got 2-4 years to overcome the initial struggling years, and get a foothold, and if you don't, you are another contributor to the Singapore's Economy ... No wonder many local photographic hardware / trade shops and related companies flourishes, even in these bad times ! :bsmilie:


Anyway, there is no formula to one's success, but with a bit of luck, sheer hard work and a determination to succeed, and faith about your own work and plans.


Remember, you are responsible for your own Destiny -- it's Time to take Charge ! :thumbsup:

Hahah ha ha ... Would like to share a recent story ( actually just received an email reply today ! ) ...

As usual, you meet-up your potential ROM customer, at your studio and do the SOP presentation and his initial brief about his ROM detail ...

Confidently, you would expect that it would be another "easy" sales and the ROM Photo job being secured ... Normally, from experiences, ROM clients who actually turn-up at your studio, success Rate is High ( >80% ), reasons being :
[1] Affordability - ROM photo service, under $500 buck ( for 2-hours )
[2] Less Competition - As of 2008, NOT many full-time Pros are interested or offered this, as the Margin is thin, verses the *RISK and lot of post-production works involved.
[3] Value-adds - We do offer professional wedding planning which included in the package !


Hahah hahah ... However, i was surprise to learned from his email reply :

------------------------------------ Email Message clip ------------------------------------------------
From: xxxxxx
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:17 PM
To: XXXXXX
Subject: Follow-up - ROM Day 22 May...

Hi Nick,

Although you work is most professional after seeing a number of photographers I have decided not to use your services.

The overall package and cost I was offered elsewhere was more suitable to me.

I must thank you for meeting me and taking time to show and discuss your work.

Best regards

------------------------------------ Email Message clip ------------------------------------------------


The above is a no brainer that the ROM client is looking for his "ideal package" ...

I thought I was a "Low-baller" offering Good works+value-adds with Good pricing, I guess many Beat me to that ! .. ha haha ha! :bsmilie:


For your entertainment :thumbsup:

- - - -

hahahaa.. bro dun sound surprise.. as it is happening to alot of pro photograhper now... if you read the first few post... i did give some similar example which is almost the same situation as yours....

even though u manage to take control of what u doing.. by you cant control others...so tat where the problem lied..... :cry: ...

 

[sjackal]

Hahah ha ha ... Would like to share a recent story ( actually just received an email reply today ! ) ...

As usual, you meet-up your potential ROM customer, at your studio and do the SOP presentation and his initial brief about his ROM detail ...

Confidently, you would expect that it would be another "easy" sales and the ROM Photo job being secured ... Normally, from experiences, ROM clients who actually turn-up at your studio, success Rate is High ( >80% ), reasons being :
[1] Affordability - ROM photo service, under $500 buck ( for 2-hours )
[2] Less Competition - As of 2008, NOT many full-time Pros are interested or offered this, as the Margin is thin, verses the *RISK and lot of post-production works involved.
[3] Value-adds - We do offer professional wedding planning which included in the package !


Hahah hahah ... However, i was surprise to learned from his email reply :

------------------------------------ Email Message clip ------------------------------------------------
From: xxxxxx
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:17 PM
To: XXXXXX
Subject: Follow-up - ROM Day 22 May...

Hi Nick,

Although you work is most professional after seeing a number of photographers I have decided not to use your services.

The overall package and cost I was offered elsewhere was more suitable to me.

I must thank you for meeting me and taking time to show and discuss your work.

Best regards

------------------------------------ Email Message clip ------------------------------------------------


The above is a no brainer that the ROM client is looking for his "ideal package" ...

I thought I was a "Low-baller" offering Good works+value-adds with Good pricing, I guess many Beat me to that ! .. ha haha ha! :bsmilie:


For your entertainment :thumbsup:

- - - -

Thanx for sharing Nick, I read a story about a couple won a huge discount for a multi-awarded weddg photog thru some contest but still prefer to let their cousin shoot their once-in-lifetime affair. I guess probably the photog is doing it at cost (album), but they still couldn't afford him.

I guess that enquirer is still not in your league even as you already 'low-balled'.

 

[kiwi2]

A business is still a business. It doesn't mean you can retire early. Whoever says photography is not a business here. I wonder then what are all those photographers doing so far? Wasting their time on a "career"?

One must be mindful this is Singapore. You want to charge $10-15k for a wedding? You must first ask What's your background in photography? Who are you? What's your skill level? And most importantly, what kind of society are you in? You can extend this to many areas in life. So you see all those EPL soccer players being paid 1 million pounds a month, you want our local players to cry foul why they are paid a few k only? Cannot be right... In Europe, you can sell a plain hotdog for 2-3 Euro, which about S$5. You try selling it at that price here and see what you get.

sjackel: who is this "multi-award" wedding photog (everyone seems to call themselves that these days) and how much was being discounted, if you don't mind sharing? This is the first time I've heard of "contests" like this. Anyway, I find it strange. 1, Very good photographers don't give away such discounts. It just waters down their reputation. They don't need to resort to such tactics. 2, A contest that gives away discounts is not a contest at all. It's a cheapskate ploy. Even after the discounts, the couple could still need to pay a substantial amount which they may not find worth it or within their budget. So it's not surprising to reject it.

Enchanted: Wow, the guy doesn't sound tactful at all. But then again, he might have found his friend or someone who gives him a cheaper rate and could satisfy what he is looking for. So....

Whoever wants to do this trade, I think it's important to do it out of love. Money is important but it will not get you anywhere if it's your main motivation. There are many other professions which face similar problems as full-time photography here. Money is never enough. You think the hollywood superstar is satisfied with his or her US$1million salary per episode of acting? Of course not. They are always asking higher.

And please give those couples a break. They have every right to find a photographer that suits them. You may think you are offering good services, price, etc. But someone else could be better than you. Or somehow, the couples found something more suitable for themselves. It's no different when you shop for something, like furniture, electronics, car, etc. Don't you shop around a lot before finding something suitable? The sales people could also find you irritating.

Sometimes I feel photographers are too critical of potential clients going to them cos they see things in their own perspectives. Just remember, you are doing a business. It's never an easy thing. It just goes to show you how competitive the market is.

 

[juzgood1978]

Doctors and Lawyers can open their own firms and chain of clinics and this is leveraging. Not only that they can be in this profession till 60s? but try shooting in your 50s...
Also like you say photography is artistic and very personal service and super broad pricing range, you engage your client and shoot differently from other people, its hard to hire and still justify the price. Therefore photography can at most be called a profession but not a viable business, unless you start branching out into buy bridal boutiques and by then its no longer a pure photography business anymore.

You are right. It can qualifies as a small business at best, even with some aspects like post production sub-con-ed out, still labor intensive end of the day, not a system you can walk away and left it on auto-pilot. Most of the time it is also the owner who don't want to, even if he could, because this is a artistic profession.

It is the same overseas too, it is the same for other professions like doctors and lawyers too. But that doesn't stop people from choosing these professions. Professional photographers know well that they are not in this line to get rich, but to do what they want to do.