Anyone here ever wanted to become pro PG but gave up?

[ckuang]

I disagree. Bubble tea was a fad. The cheaper and cheaper cost of DSLRs now - I don't think it is a fad.

And though some aspiring novices have failed at their business, there are plenty PLENTY more to fill their place.

Nope the reason why I compare it to bubble tea is because setting up a bubble tea store became affordable when the price of the sealing machines became affordable. those machines used to be really ex, then came down in price.

Many people were setting up shop bubble tea shop after the economic crisis because they were out of a job. Same like how many people are picking u cameras to become pro photogs because either jobs are hard to find or they are out of a job.

like the bubble tea market, the photography market will eventually get flooded with so many new photogs that prices will collapse, just like bubble tea where there were so many stores that prices just kept falling. People will leave the industry as it becomes unprofitable and it goes through a correction phase.

eventually the situation will stabilize. I predict as the economy gets better, jobs are more secure, and pple realize photography isnt profitable at current prices, they'll move onto doing something else, like being housing agents. I'm not saying photography is a fad, it's not, but the state of the industry is going through a transition right now, or so i feel anyway.

 

[night86mare]

i think everyone wanted to be a pro photographer once.

but somewhere along the way, most get caught into the xmm trap, and then most of their time is spent paying money to organisers to get girls to smile at them.

how to do business like that? bad shots that no one, not even stock photography agencies will buy, along with expenses for green tea and other "cookie point scoring devices" for xmm..

 

[night86mare]

Come on be nice. What looks average may not be so average in eyes of many. There is no need to say such and such as bad skill? Run your own race and remember it is better to have a peer as friend than enemy right?

ok, next time your house renovation, the painter, the toilet people, the furniture people.. all of them suck like hell, but you will pat them all on the back and say that they did a good job, and they should run their own race, etc.

there are professional photographers and there are "professional photographers". i guess it depends on whether you want to consider "work pride" as an essential quality of someone using photography as a living. as far as i'm concerned, while i am not one, i still feel ashamed on behalf of the real deals when i see people who take horrible photographs and spoil the market, giving not just professionals a bad name, but all photographers as a whole.

it is one thing to run your own race, but there is nothing wrong with also acknowledging that there are many, many bad photographers out there, and some of these have the cheek to charge money for their skill level - it is pretty damn appalling sometimes.

 

[lancey]

in photography business, a salable photo is art or not, sh1t or not, doesn't really matter.

but every photographers will tell you only one thing, if their photos don't sell, they are in deep sh1t.

but u said good photo doesn't equate to good business..

make up your mind leh

 

[lancey]

As long as a photo sells, doesn't matter it is good or bad?

SO how does one know what sells and what doesn't sells? lol

U must be one of them who bangs away the shuuter like no tommorow on a job hoping some of the raw files get sold!?

 

[Sion]

As long as a photo sells, doesn't matter it is good or bad?

If it gets sold it is commercially good.

If it doesn't get sold it is ART.

SO how does one know what sells and what doesn't sells? lol

If you ask this question you shouldn't be in the business of selling photos.

U must be one of them who bangs away the shuuter like no tommorow on a job hoping some of the raw files get sold!?

Do you bother to check his credentials before saying that?

 

[night86mare]

If you ask this question you shouldn't be in the business of selling photos.

:bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie:

 

[catchlights]

As long as a photo sells, doesn't matter it is good or bad?

SO how does one know what sells and what doesn't sells? lol

U must be one of them who bangs away the shuuter like no tommorow on a job hoping some of the raw files get sold!?

but u said good photo doesn't equate to good business..

make up your mind leh

my most sellable photo, I'm sure most members here can take much better photos than this.

 

[Agetan]

ok, next time your house renovation, the painter, the toilet people, the furniture people.. all of them suck like hell, but you will pat them all on the back and say that they did a good job, and they should run their own race, etc.

there are professional photographers and there are "professional photographers". i guess it depends on whether you want to consider "work pride" as an essential quality of someone using photography as a living. as far as i'm concerned, while i am not one, i still feel ashamed on behalf of the real deals when i see people who take horrible photographs and spoil the market, giving not just professionals a bad name, but all photographers as a whole.

it is one thing to run your own race, but there is nothing wrong with also acknowledging that there are many, many bad photographers out there, and some of these have the cheek to charge money for their skill level - it is pretty damn appalling sometimes.

My argument here is not to say there isn't any bad service provider out there, but what is the point to put them down? If one think carefully, what is there to gain for you or the photography community when you tell a client, such and such photographer is not good because they do this and that? What does the message that the client hear?

Many often feel threaten by low price, unprofessional service, copy cat but really, this is not something that one should be worry for as you know exactly where these people will be in a few years or few months time. Some will feel it is unprofitable anymore, some will simply feel that they are getting no where, and some feel dishearted... and there are more reason people fail in any field then just simply $ and cents...

Like ckuang has said, there will be a correction phase, but to reach that point, it will be quite a long way and we may or may not see it.

So what I mean is, we could really save our energy on commenting some other peer's work being so and so, why don't we focus on our energy in building up what we already have?

Positive attitude is very important, if one have negative attitude in them, I would wonder, how much time and energy they have left to look at things in more positive way?

Take me for example, when we first started, people call us "unprofessional" because we don't have a studio (it was a choice) and being call "stupid" to concentrate on Children photography only in such a small market... when I looked back, people who has commented that today, because they spend so much time putting their negative attitude and worry about what I am doing, they are still where they were?

Personally, if I were to hate them and spend my time on non-productive and negative thoughts, probably I won't be at where I am at the moment.

And again, I think having positive thinking is very important.

My work come not only from my advertising effort, but sometime do come from your friend, in this matter and very importantly, a peer that is in the same industry. Likewise, I do refer them jobs when i can't have it all.

Having peer as friend is very important and I can't stress how important it is.

I have mixed feeling about professional photography market here in Singapore as I do see some good photographers are very close and working on common goal but majority what I have observed the other side of it... competitive in the wrong end... which is the pricing and the "business tactic".

Truthfully, it hurts to think why people can't work together closely and learning from each other and more importantly "Protect" each other? Why don't we work together in harmony and building the community that we love?

Ask yourself, when you are angry for 1 minute in a day... how much time do you take to really recover from it? a few minutes? or a few hours? if you think again, those recovery time, are they "lost" time for you? while you can spend it on your business?

Once again, my point is, we know and understand that they are different level in any field, but there is no reason why we should put someone down? I am sorry to say to Jed that he/she is not being nice. It was more my Oz in me... not being too serious about everything... relax guys...

Have a wonderful Sunday.

Regards,

Hart

 

[night86mare]

oh, if i am a professional photographer, obviously i won't go around badmouthing people.

firstly, none of my business. secondly, also reflects badly on me, like i have to say others lousy then i feel good.

outside of that, i think it's free game, especially when telling friends,family which photographer to use. don't tell me you will tell them "positive thinking" when their photographs turn out to be horrible... when you already know that the person who is going to do this or that for them is horrible. :bsmilie:

 

[Agetan]

oh, if i am a professional photographer, obviously i won't go around badmouthing people.

firstly, none of my business. secondly, also reflects badly on me, like i have to say others lousy then i feel good.

outside of that, i think it's free game, especially when telling friends,family which photographer to use. don't tell me you will tell them "positive thinking" when their photographs turn out to be horrible... when you already know that the person who is going to do this or that for them is horrible. :bsmilie:

wow...

 

[night86mare]

wow...

??

so if your brother is having a wedding, and you have seen the photographer 's work on clubsnap, and he is hiring the guy, and he asks you about it..

personally you think the guy is overrated, you think he can't handle exposure or composition well and is better off not doing this for money.. you will keep quiet?

i couldn't.

 

[chanjyj]

Nope the reason why I compare it to bubble tea is because setting up a bubble tea store became affordable when the price of the sealing machines became affordable. those machines used to be really ex, then came down in price.

Many people were setting up shop bubble tea shop after the economic crisis because they were out of a job. Same like how many people are picking u cameras to become pro photogs because either jobs are hard to find or they are out of a job.

like the bubble tea market, the photography market will eventually get flooded with so many new photogs that prices will collapse, just like bubble tea where there were so many stores that prices just kept falling. People will leave the industry as it becomes unprofitable and it goes through a correction phase.

eventually the situation will stabilize. I predict as the economy gets better, jobs are more secure, and pple realize photography isnt profitable at current prices, they'll move onto doing something else, like being housing agents. I'm not saying photography is a fad, it's not, but the state of the industry is going through a transition right now, or so i feel anyway.

How will the price collapse, if there are new photographers to take their place? The price will stabilize if demand and supply can meet somewhere - the thing is it can't.

Even with a temporary stabilization, new novices will come in and drive the supply up again - the curve goes through fluctuations continuously. Sure, it may come down for a while, but I'm quite sure it will go up again.

The only way to ensure it stays constant? Segmentation of the market. This is applicable only in Singapore because of the small market size and consumer base. High end photography firms will have to merge - or become oligopolies at least. Same for middle-level. The low end? leave it for the monkeys.

 

[Teegongkia]

How will the price collapse, if there are new photographers to take their place? The price will stabilize if demand and supply can meet somewhere - the thing is it can't.

Even with a temporary stabilization, new novices will come in and drive the supply up again - the curve goes through fluctuations continuously. Sure, it may come down for a while, but I'm quite sure it will go up again.

The only way to ensure it stays constant? Segmentation of the market. This is applicable only in Singapore because of the small market size and consumer base. High end photography firms will have to merge - or become oligopolies at least. Same for middle-level. The low end? leave it for the monkeys.

well said...

Its either you separate from the low end and climb up toward the high end region or stay at baseline to be buried by other novice and eventually force to exit the market.

But how we do that, we must leave it to the pro to share their experience....

 

[chanjyj]

well said...

Its either you separate from the low end and climb up toward the high end region or stay at baseline to be buried by other novice and eventually force to exit the market.

But how we do that, we must leave it to the pro to share their experience....

I do not think many will share :bsmilie:

Anyway for my company it started out on the commercial side. Was covering for MNCs et al. The big names like Leica, Chanel blah blah.

From there created a 2nd department (division) to handle the wedding market. Used the original (DIV 1) contacts to establish customer base for wedding, then from there on it's word of mouth.

Some of the fellow commercial photographers here say the quality of your work is not important. I'd say that is debatable, especially when it comes to commercial photography when you may already have a creative director from the marketing agency. If it is a product shot, it's pretty simple.

Weddings are a different ball game, and here is where word of mouth comes in. Quality is of importance here, unless you are dealing with the real low end group which don't really care. But once your price point goes above 2.5K, quality becomes an extremely critical area.

 

[chanjyj]

i think everyone wanted to be a pro photographer once.

but somewhere along the way, most get caught into the xmm trap, and then most of their time is spent paying money to organisers to get girls to smile at them.

how to do business like that? bad shots that no one, not even stock photography agencies will buy, along with expenses for green tea and other "cookie point scoring devices" for xmm..

xmm trap? Sorry - could you elaborate? What does xmm have to do with the business :dunno:

 

[catchlights]

xmm trap? Sorry - could you elaborate? What does xmm have to do with the business :dunno:

he is pulling some people leg here....... never mind if you catch no ball...

 

[knoxknocks]

Actually I echo Kuang's view that the low cost base plus low barrier to entry will result in more photographers joining the fray - we've seen that a lot in the wedding and portrait photography area. Because newcomers would generally price more randomly, it does destabilise the market for a while.

What makes the market I operate in (wedding photography) different from bubble tea one is that there is actually a fairly distinct market segmentation. You are (or were ) unlikely to find a low-end, mid and high-end bubble tea outlet - think Pizza Hut/Pasta Fresca/Il Lido. That business model was more of a high volume/low cost type so it was difficult to differentiate between the different brands. In the end, it was a matter of competing on location, flavours and price (ok, maybe the occasional bikini models lol). If there's any parallel in the wedding photography business, I would think this may be the case if there is an extremely huge number (and big influx) of full-time photographers in the fairly crowded lower-end segment of the market.

 

[night86mare]

xmm trap? Sorry - could you elaborate? What does xmm have to do with the business :dunno:

in singapore

PHOTOGRAPHY

and

XMM

go hand in hand. learn fast! :bsmilie::bsmilie:

 

[chngpe01]

he is pulling some people leg here....... never mind if you catch no ball...

Actually, it is not a joke. I know of one "full time" photographer who quit his banking job and became one. Was sharing studio with me and most of the time I just see him surfing CS, workshop section and active there. His shoots comprised mainly XMM TFCD shoot or for their comp card. After a couple years, his funds runs out and started to owe me rental and disappeared from my sight (still owing me the $), last heard is that he is still a "pro" but assisting a established wedding photog and sharing a studio with his "buddy" in Ang Mo Kio area. No more active in CS as he is being watched by me for my $. hehehehehe

So there are this type of "pro" around

Sorry for the OT, I think we should stick back to the topic.