The Degrading Photographic Market

[Danntbt]

The camera is just a tool, toopid......

If you shoot like crap, you shoot like crap, no camera or post processing can save you.

With the so-called digital revolution, the crap becomes much more instantaneous, more immediate for everyone to see! I think you're just confusing the surge in noise for increased signal.........

Let's not get personal here by calling people names, everyone's entitled to their own opinion - stupid or otherwise, just as everyone is entitled to shoot - crap or otherwise.
The digital revolution makes it more accessible for people who thinks they can shoot - crap or otherwise, and if people are willing to pay for crap, it's their money. In the past people with Senior Cambridge Qualification are considered big deal and can go places, today, a Degree is a dime a dozen, but not all graduates are equal, just as not all photographers are equal. Those who are good should not be afraid of the challenges posted by the influx of wannabes, maybe they should not just take things for granted, and that the elitism in having the tools to do the job is no longer their exclusive domnain. It is the survival of the fittest ultimately as the market gets saturated, let your work do the talking, rather than talking people out of their right to challenge you......

 

[kahheng]

let your work do the talking, rather than talking people out of their right to challenge you......

If you were directing this last bit at me, it's rather laughable because you have completely misinterpreted my reply.

You did start off quite cleverly but, just like the previous poster that I was addressing, you also confuse having the tools with having the ability. Photographic equipment have always been available to anyone with the money to buy them. It's no different today than with last time. Yes, precisely, let the work do the talking, but your sanctimonious tone is rip-roaring.

I am entitled to my opinion, like you said............

 

[catchlights]

I shoot for living for many years, and don't shoot base on my passion. When I shoot, whether I have passion, mood, interest or not, still have to deliver results to my customers.


If base on 1% failing rate, for every one hundred couples, will have one totally screw up, and people will remember this one incident forever, and forget about the rest of 99 couples, anyway, totally screw up will not be happen, (that's what experiences count). Maybe just a few shots didn't turnout as expected only.:bsmilie:


I don't really bother about these kind of things, (cheap, low budget, undercutting), but not saying it do not affect me at all, it happens all the time. Anyway, people come and go, just see who will last 5,10 or 15 years still in the arena.


Regulate the markets, discourage lower rates etc, all these will not really work, because when there is a “demand”, someone will “supply”. Even to a extent of making a photographers need license to charge for shoot, still will see many illegal photographers practice underground.


Btw, I tell straight to my customers: I shoot for money, not passion, you want cheap? Find somebody else!:bsmilie: :bsmilie:

 

[Danntbt]

If you were directing this last bit at me, it's rather laughable because you have completely misinterpreted my reply.

You did start off quite cleverly but, just like the previous poster that I was addressing, you also confuse having the tools with having the ability. Photographic equipment have always been available to anyone with the money to buy them. It's no different today than with last time. Yes, precisely, let the work do the talking, but your sanctimonious tone is rip-roaring.

I am entitled to my opinion, like you said............

The point is the degree of accessibilty due to the lower cost of entry,,,,,,,,,,,sure you are entiltled to your opinion, and you are as "rip-roaring" in your too-pid comments......no offence.....

I am not sure what it's meant by my being confused betw tools and ability.....I did mentioned that the tool is getting more accessible and there are different levels of abilities amongst Pro and wannabes....just as a degree does not guarantee competency....so what is your point if I got it wrong here.

or maybe....I am too tooopid to get you.....hahahaha

 

[waileong]

Back to the topic.

1. These people are amateurs who are trying to break in. How can they offer "market" rate when they have no track record, no satisfied clients?

2. Our country is generally poorer to begin with. Eg. what prize money did Wheel of Fortune Singapore offer compared to the US Wheel of Fortune.

3. Don't join.

It is not a matter of right or wrong. It's more how you should act in these circumstances.

For 1, any business is subject to undercutting and competition. If your client chooses to buy something at half price from someone with no track record, then you're prob better off without him. He doesn't understand quality, he doesn't care about reputation, he is probably stingy, so if you have a choice (ie if your working capital is enough to survive) then it's probably better to move on, look for clients who understand quality.

Lets put it this way, just because there's Hotel 81 does not mean that Marriott or even Hilton have to lower rates to match.

Of course, the other way to compete is to do some cost-cutting, see if you can be more competitive, if you decide to fight for this client. If you are really cost-inefficient, don't blame the clients for choosing others.

For 2, I would suggest you move to US or join international photo competitions where the prize is better. But you have to be prepared for a much higher level of competition. That is one reason why competitions there have better prizes, because the quality of entries is much higher due to the larger talent base there.

For 3, perhaps you should send in an entry, take a picture of a sign on a wall. The sign should say "I want to keep the copyrights to my entries. I will only assign the copyrights to you if I win a prize (or 1st/2nd/3rd prize)".

If enough of us do this, the organisers will get the message.

Wai Leong
===

To think of it, Singapore's photographic market is quite screwed compared to USA.

Many of you have witnessed
1. People trying to offer photographic services way below market rate
2. Photographic competitions with dismal prizes (compared to other countries)
3. Photographic competitions that do not give photographers their copyrights for the image even though they didnt win and some even do not credit the photographers when using their images.

Take a stand from an unbiased view. I really think there is no right or wrong. But do you think this is right from your stand and your principles?

Do you think people's actions might just worsen the photographic market here?
Or do you think it is just "competition"?

What is happening here?

Feel free to post your opinions here.

 

[Fluorite]

I do see many mixed comments here. For those who are giving everyone steps to follow (e.g. do not join competitions when you do not agree; if you are professional why you bother about influx of newbies...), you have misintepreted my discussion topic.

The aim here is to gather opinions not steps to counter.

Everyone knows that if you disagree to a competition's terms, then you should not join it. Which moron disagrees and joins? I just want to know how you people feel towards the situation.

 

[sign1206]

If you were directing this last bit at me, it's rather laughable because you have completely misinterpreted my reply.

You did start off quite cleverly but, just like the previous poster that I was addressing, you also confuse having the tools with having the ability. Photographic equipment have always been available to anyone with the money to buy them. It's no different today than with last time. Yes, precisely, let the work do the talking, but your sanctimonious tone is rip-roaring.

I am entitled to my opinion, like you said............

I think this poster has, to begin with, misinterpreted my harmless comments and Danntbt's comments completely. The gravity of the issue here is hardly about equipment, though the word 'equipment' was mentioned and that has possibly crowded your narrow understanding. Zoom out and look at the big picture. There is no need to be sensitive or upset if you disagree, for we are all entitled to present our own perspectives. Are we expected to comment in agreement with the general flow? Who is more right then the other? Who is to judge who is stupid (or clever) and who is not? You?

Talking crap and acting smart here is no different from shooting crap and its instantly broadcast too.

Sorry to sidetrack and degrade this discission, this will be my last for this thread.

 

[kahheng]

Sorry to sidetrack and degrade this discission, this will be my last for this thread.

Thank God.

 

[catchlights]

I do see many mixed comments here. For those who are giving everyone steps to follow (e.g. do not join competitions when you do not agree; if you are professional why you bother about influx of newbies...), you have misintepreted my discussion topic.

The aim here is to gather opinions not steps to counter.

Everyone knows that if you disagree to a competition's terms, then you should not join it. Which moron disagrees and joins? I just want to know how you people feel towards the situation.

Many people say one things but do another, have enough seeing this kind of things, so "see open a little" (chinses saying).

Do whatever you think you can or right to help the photography community, but don't expect others to do it, so you won't get too disappointed about the photography community.

 

[kahheng]

or maybe....I am too tooopid to get you.....hahahaha

Since you say so, sadly, I am afraid you probably are.

 

[waileong]

I don't think there is much point exchanging feelings. This is not a First Wives' club. Knowing that thousands of others feel the same way I do about something doesn't do anything for me.

Here's a famous quote: "Sympathisers only sympathise, Gisberne" (said by the Sheriff of Nottingham in the 1985 Robn Hood TV series). The meaning is that they may support you, but are not going to lift a finger to help you, so what's the point.

Wai Leong
===
PS Morons, by definition, do a lot of stupid things, like entering photo competitions without checking the T&Cs, or believing that they should join S'pore photo competitions instead of international ones, or calling others morons, etc.

I do see many mixed comments here. For those who are giving everyone steps to follow (e.g. do not join competitions when you do not agree; if you are professional why you bother about influx of newbies...), you have misintepreted my discussion topic.

The aim here is to gather opinions not steps to counter.

Everyone knows that if you disagree to a competition's terms, then you should not join it. Which moron disagrees and joins? I just want to know how you people feel towards the situation.

 

[Fluorite]

I never expected to do anything to help. Neither did I asked others to help. What is wrong with sharing and exchanging views on what is going on here. And note I was trying to source for comments and views NOT feelings.

To Waileong:
I never called anyone morons in particular. Please read carefully: I was saying who would join competitions without agreeing to the R and Rs are generally stupid cos they are hurting themselves. This is my opinion. And if you are so sensitive to think that I was referring to you, then so be it. I do not wish to quarrel over a small issue.

 

[catchlights]

I never expected to do anything to help. Neither did I asked others to help. What is wrong with sharing and exchanging views on what is going on here. And note I was trying to source for comments and views NOT feelings.

....................

This topic has been dicussed and dicussed and discussed, you may find lot of threads related to this kind of topics, what ever kinds of comments you can find inside the threads, it will take you many days to finish reading it.

FYI, nothing is gonne change, these will go on forever.

I rest my case.

 

[Danntbt]

Since you say so, sadly, I am afraid you probably are.

It takes one to know one....

 

[mattlock]

there's alot to read...but here are some suggestions

Photographers have to unite together and share information among each other so that they will not be exploited (posts on exploitative terms and conditions, people who undercut the market, etc etc are useful, as are photographers who share their pricing so others have a good sense of where to peg their rates), and also to understand the long term detrimental effect they have on the market when they choose to do certain things (i.e. undercut)

Photographers need to educate clients on the cost of photography & running a business
Photographers need to stand firm on certain principles too that hopefully can be agreed upon by other photographers, so that everyone benefits in the long term (e.g.issues regarding rights to pictures, giving away negatives). Once a client gets to bite away at a photographer's source of income, he or she will demand the same treatment from the next photographer.

We have to encourage art education in Singapore, which in turn will allow people to better understand the importance of a good picture and how it can translate to commercial value. ten people can shoot at the same location but come out with absolutely different shots.

Most importantly, photographers have a responsibility to improve their craft and their art, otherwise clients will have reason to believe our job is really simple. In this period of time where photography is becoming easy to pick up, we must provide a service that is beyond just clicking a button.

 

[fotoudavid]

Once a client gets to bite away at a photographer's source of income, he or she will demand the same treatment from the next photographer.

Agreed.

But, there is always someone who will jump in to shoot for a low fee or do it for free.

Remember couple asking for photographer to shoot their pre wedding case? I saw a few offering to do it free.

Remember the d&d issue, the organiser came here to source for free photographer, saying the photographer can keep as portfolio, in the end wat happen? The photographer ask his friend to complain here that he was unfairly treated, i think the photographer can't use the images. He don't dare to say himself, cos he always appear here as someone experience, knows alot, tell ppl don't shoot for free, in the end, he do it himself.

I look down on this guy. :thumbsd: Did anyone see him here on this thread? By the way, he also offer to do the pre wedding.

The newbies and hobbyist don't see it this way, they don't need to survive 10 years down the road as catchlights says, they juz shoot for exposure and fun, co** up also like that.

Regarding the competition issue, if everyone says not happy don't join, then the whole senario will never improve. Those who say not happy not join, please think far far ahead.

 

[vince123123]

any clues?

I look down on this guy. :thumbsd: Did anyone see him here on this thread? By the way, he also offer to do the pre wedding.

right on.

Regarding the competition issue, if everyone says not happy don't join, then the whole senario will never improve. Those who say not happy not join, please think far far ahead.

 

[kahheng]

It takes one to know one....

I am afraid I can't reply any further in case I get accused of taking advantage of the clueless............