LCD preview on SLR.
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+evenstar said:
+evenstar,
Oh yes, what I meant was DSLR. Thanks for noting that. When you mentioned that the cheapest DSLR is about $600, did you mean second hand ones?
I guess that I should post my question as: "What is the cheapest new (first-hand) DSLR on sale now?" :bsmilie:
er... Why no one ever tot of how come some viewfinders are brighter than the others.
this point about live preview:
Current dSLRs uses a mirror/prisms to reflect light upwards to the viewfinder. From what I noticed dSLR mirrors are with holes where "light" goes through and the camera uses the light to focus. Thus that makes the focal points etc.
The Fuji and the Olympus cameras use some prism which sorta splits the light, allowing some to reflect up to the viewfinder, and some to the CCD sensor which will then allow for live viewing. My guess is that the viewfinder of the Fuji and Olympus is (much?) dimmer than a comparable Canon or Nikon dSLR.
It's only logical. If the max aperture is only so big, that means you can only have so much light entering the lens reaching the mirror. If you were to split the amount of light, it's only logical that less light would go in either direction. Easily compensated for CCD which can use some high sensitivity CCD to capture images, but I doubt you can upgrade your eyes. It might even affect your capability to do manual focusing in really low light conditions.
IMHO, Camera manufacturers choose not to implement the feature, coz i guess most photo buffs will complain about having very dim viewfinders. I guess putting in such uncommonly used features will permanently impair the commonly used ones.
So, which do you prefer? a brighter viewfinder or a live preview?
this point about live preview:
Current dSLRs uses a mirror/prisms to reflect light upwards to the viewfinder. From what I noticed dSLR mirrors are with holes where "light" goes through and the camera uses the light to focus. Thus that makes the focal points etc.
The Fuji and the Olympus cameras use some prism which sorta splits the light, allowing some to reflect up to the viewfinder, and some to the CCD sensor which will then allow for live viewing. My guess is that the viewfinder of the Fuji and Olympus is (much?) dimmer than a comparable Canon or Nikon dSLR.
It's only logical. If the max aperture is only so big, that means you can only have so much light entering the lens reaching the mirror. If you were to split the amount of light, it's only logical that less light would go in either direction. Easily compensated for CCD which can use some high sensitivity CCD to capture images, but I doubt you can upgrade your eyes. It might even affect your capability to do manual focusing in really low light conditions.
IMHO, Camera manufacturers choose not to implement the feature, coz i guess most photo buffs will complain about having very dim viewfinders. I guess putting in such uncommonly used features will permanently impair the commonly used ones.
So, which do you prefer? a brighter viewfinder or a live preview?
+evenstar said:Brighter viewfinder for me...
To give some numbers, I seem to recall a specification for a Canon DSLR with mirror reflection/transmission coefficients of 60%/40%. So this is quite significant.
Well... if there's anyone to correct me if i'm wrong... Fuji's finder is as bright as the nikon's and larger than the D70's too
It does not use a prism to split the light for live preview - the mirror is locked up during a live preview. The oly you might be talking about might be the E10/E20 (i havent checked but I'm guessing). As for the prism... Fuji DSLR's use a mirror and not a prism.heh sorry, i think that applies only to the olympus one. yeah the S3 does a mirror lockup. If i'm not wrong so does the 20DA. Sorry, that slipped my mind.. it was late at nite and I was drowsy.
My point is if u use a split system your viewfinder is not gonna be bright.
Well as for those using mirror lockup.. i dunno about u, i'm already paranoid about dust on my sensor even with the camera mirror blocking... to expose my CCD all the time?
hmmmmm Also, in case of sudden flashes of extreme brightness, it's possible to burn out your ccd. Imagine the number of people who will bring back their cameras for repair when they accidentally flashed their camera at the sun while using a 70-200 F2.8 and in the process killed the CCD/CMOS.
IIRC fuji ccd switches to BW or something like that.. indicates lower sensitivity.. lesser chance of ccd/cmos burning out..
Me, I'll just live my camera till the day tech is advanced enough to handle everything..
My point is if u use a split system your viewfinder is not gonna be bright.
Well as for those using mirror lockup.. i dunno about u, i'm already paranoid about dust on my sensor even with the camera mirror blocking... to expose my CCD all the time?
hmmmmm Also, in case of sudden flashes of extreme brightness, it's possible to burn out your ccd. Imagine the number of people who will bring back their cameras for repair when they accidentally flashed their camera at the sun while using a 70-200 F2.8 and in the process killed the CCD/CMOS.
IIRC fuji ccd switches to BW or something like that.. indicates lower sensitivity.. lesser chance of ccd/cmos burning out..
Me, I'll just live my camera till the day tech is advanced enough to handle everything..
Haha, the next feature people will ask from their DSLR will be movie recording...
Maybe because I've grown up with film instead (no such thing as 'live' preview, everything was done through an optical viewfinder, SLR or otherwise), I don't find not having a 'live' preview LCD a big handicap to my shooting style. A 'nice to have', but definitely not something that will break the deal.
If you think of a DSLR as a SLR camera that uses digital film, maybe that will help understand why manufacturers don't put that feature in. Technically, anything can be done, but pratically, there must be a cost-benefit analysis.
Maybe because I've grown up with film instead (no such thing as 'live' preview, everything was done through an optical viewfinder, SLR or otherwise), I don't find not having a 'live' preview LCD a big handicap to my shooting style. A 'nice to have', but definitely not something that will break the deal.
If you think of a DSLR as a SLR camera that uses digital film, maybe that will help understand why manufacturers don't put that feature in. Technically, anything can be done, but pratically, there must be a cost-benefit analysis.
Ah Pao said:
My guess is that once communications technology allows for it, we will see a dslr with built in telephony features to allow instant transmission of executed images......one slot for memory card and one for SIM card? :bsmilie:
Canew said:Hello everyone,
I would like to post a question. "Are there any SLRs in the market that are able to use the LCD screen to compose the shot (like a PnS) without viewing through the viewfinder?"
All comments are welcomed.
Well, Sony has provided the answer for those who want the best of both world
Sony R1: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
Image test: http://www.fotopolis.pl/index.php?gora=4&lewa=3&e=3342&p=5
My $0.02. The LCD live preview with the digital P&S and digital prosumer cameras, had created the worst photoshooting habit of all time - holding the camera 1 to 2 feet in front of you, swivel and pivot your wrist to frame, and press the shutter from a totally unstable shooting platform. No wonder, there are so many OOF and blurry pictures out there these days. Now, we must remember, we are talking about a very light weight camera.
Even if DSLR has the live preview capability, unless we are shooting with a tripod, try to hold the camera with a fast lens, since I am a Canon uses, I will use 20D + 24-70 2.8L as a example, a foot or two in front of you at eye level, GOOD LUCK in maintianing any stability. It ain't hapenning. If I change to a 70-200 2.8L, well, you know the rest of the story.
Some of us will demand Canon to come up with better image stablelization. What I say is the photographer need to operate the camera from a more stable platform. shoot with arms tug in close to the body, using the body for additional supprot for the lens.
Even if DSLR has the live preview capability, unless we are shooting with a tripod, try to hold the camera with a fast lens, since I am a Canon uses, I will use 20D + 24-70 2.8L as a example, a foot or two in front of you at eye level, GOOD LUCK in maintianing any stability. It ain't hapenning. If I change to a 70-200 2.8L, well, you know the rest of the story.
Some of us will demand Canon to come up with better image stablelization. What I say is the photographer need to operate the camera from a more stable platform. shoot with arms tug in close to the body, using the body for additional supprot for the lens.
cheersjy said:Well, Sony has provided the answer for those who want the best of both world
Sony R1: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
cheersjy,
From dpreview: "The R1 doesn't have a mirror or a prism so the only possible implementation of a viewfinder must be the electronic variety."
Sorry, but the Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 is not a DSLR.
Deadpoet said:
Deadpoet, once again, well spoken. I too, felt that handling a PnS away from my body, using the LCD, is unstable and I get shaky shots.
the reason to not implement live preivew has several reasons.
1.) if you want good quality pics, you will want to keep your sensor as cool as possible so that it is only exposed to light only when it is needed to capture pictures. This will assure the blacks remain black and the whites remain white. Look up on sensors and dark current noise (blackcurrent also can, they taste nice.)
2.) cost, another way to implement live preview is by splitting the light with another prism to ANOTHER sensor to provide live preview. cost will shoot up significantly for the R&D and parts used. not to mention more complicated systems lead to more problems and bigger sized cameras.
3.) battery life. live preview eats up battery power. The camera is heavy enough already. How much bigger a battery do you want to pack in. Also bigger batter = bigger price tag. Bigger is not better..
4.) You need a more powerful processor to process the live images (15fps, 24fps or 30fps) onto the screen. More power = more batt consumption = more expensive parts. Also, MORE ram is needed to process and provide this preview.
Like what sony's R1 did. You want APS-sensor with live preview? No problem: No penta-prism/mirror no TTL viewfinder; no shiok
1.) if you want good quality pics, you will want to keep your sensor as cool as possible so that it is only exposed to light only when it is needed to capture pictures. This will assure the blacks remain black and the whites remain white. Look up on sensors and dark current noise (blackcurrent also can, they taste nice.)
2.) cost, another way to implement live preview is by splitting the light with another prism to ANOTHER sensor to provide live preview. cost will shoot up significantly for the R&D and parts used. not to mention more complicated systems lead to more problems and bigger sized cameras.
3.) battery life. live preview eats up battery power. The camera is heavy enough already. How much bigger a battery do you want to pack in. Also bigger batter = bigger price tag. Bigger is not better..
4.) You need a more powerful processor to process the live images (15fps, 24fps or 30fps) onto the screen. More power = more batt consumption = more expensive parts. Also, MORE ram is needed to process and provide this preview.
Like what sony's R1 did. You want APS-sensor with live preview? No problem: No penta-prism/mirror no TTL viewfinder; no shiok
rebbot said:
Looks like 20Da implementation is better
http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/eos20da/catalog/index02.html
It is in colour and you can take pic in live preview mode
http://www.telescopes.net/canon_eos_20da_digital_slr_cam.html
Canew said:cheersjy,
From dpreview: "The R1 doesn't have a mirror or a prism so the only possible implementation of a viewfinder must be the electronic variety."
Sorry, but the Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 is not a DSLR.
I see :bsmilie:
But well, it doesn't matter to me as long as it serve the same purpose - to capture the image
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