Language, remarks, insults, zealots .... Interlorence

[Deadpoet]

do some QC before you post, these shots are crap.

hmm. these pics can be posted in the recycle bin.

The 2 of you let this be a warning to you on your rude post.

Also take note that you do not own this forum and hence do not go around telling members here what to post and what not to.

Critics and insult are totally 2 different thing. In this case these remarks are pure insults!

I have been noticing a rise in intolerance from some mods of what I read as legitimate comments. I do not know TMC nor chrisljh. However, reading their post, I do not see how they can be seen as rude? Granted, their comments are harsh. But, if a picture is that bad, telling the photogrpaher to do some QC first is a legitimite comment. Saying it is crap is a very precise comment, and saying the pics can be posted in the recycle bin is also appropriate if the pictures in question are trash mateiral.

These comments are directed at the pictures. Must we always sugar coat our comments?

Is the mod completely out of touch?

 

[night86mare]

:bsmilie: :bsmilie: Uh oh!

But I agree, unless the photographer whose photos were put up had specifically requested that there be no critique or requested for babysitting comments.

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion. Sure, it is always nice to be civil, but sugar-coating everything will always result in an overly high opinion of one's self, and impede improvement if one has a true heart with regards to upgrading his skill.

I think it is sad that some photographers here think that because there are 8 people who give good comments, their photographs are untouchable already. And because their previous work has been pristine, whatever they post next are godlike. That is wrong. People who are good make mistakes. People who are not so good sometimes produce miraculous shots.

You have my full support with regards to sugar-coating, DP.. With the exception of one thing. While it works that way (i.e. people should be receptive to comments) I think sometimes at least a minimal amount of effort needs to be put in to explain why you have said what you said. If not, you are no better off than the photographer who refuses to listen to harsh critique. =)

I have not followed P&P much, but now and then I see the debates about comments and it amuses me how people love to squabble about the comments itself instead of helping the photographer to learn. And they profess that the critics are not helping the photographers to learn, when the critics have given high quality feedback (complete with reasoning and logic), while the critics of the critics simply just run their mouth about how the critics are always harsh.

And another thing - while photographs can be insulted, I think branches of photography should be treated with what I would term "mutual respect". Just because you have some personal opinions about an alternative branch doesn't give you any reason to allow your comments and judgement be tarred and marred with that personal bias.

As an afterthought, I wonder if that is the reason why the 2 examples above were warned? Perhaps there was no sincerity in their critique, only a perceived interest in doing nothing but slamming the photos?

Cheers!

 

[eikin]

I have been noticing a rise in intolerance from some mods of what I read as legitimate comments. I do not know TMC nor chrisljh. However, reading their post, I do not see how they can be seen as rude? Granted, their comments are harsh. But, if a picture is that bad, telling the photogrpaher to do some QC first is a legitimite comment. Saying it is crap is a very precise comment, and saying the pics can be posted in the recycle bin is also appropriate if the pictures in question are trash mateiral.

These comments are directed at the pictures. Must we always sugar coat our comments?

Is the mod completely out of touch?

CS is a forum with members at all levels with varied aims in their participation in photography.

in such an open forum as this, it's always good to give your benefit of doubt in your first post/first response addressing another's works. there's no need to sugarcoat, in the examples you've raised, we don't even know how much experience the TS of the thread in question has had, at what level are we judging the TS? i've seen the pictures, and i believe they are taken by someone with little photography experience, also getting the hint from the TS's membership status. but that's my believe. base on that, i think the perceived 'lack in quality' is 'fair' and it'll be too much to expect the TS to be showing us fantastic event coverage pictures.

if you want to give feedback on pictures, comment appropriately, in accordance to the other party's experience/level in relation to your own.

i would not be surprised that some recognised portraiture photographers will find that your pictures sucks. but do they need to tell you that they sucks? they might probably just think that you're not engaged in photography at their level, so there's really no need to say such things.

please remember that other than seeking critique and advice, CS is also open for picture sharing. if you think you can contribute something to a picture poster to help him/her improve the shot, just be honest about it, no need sugarcoat, neither is there a need to decorate your sentences with degrading remarks.

 

[ryuggen]

I have been noticing a rise in intolerance from some mods of what I read as legitimate comments. I do not know TMC nor chrisljh. However, reading their post, I do not see how they can be seen as rude? Granted, their comments are harsh. But, if a picture is that bad, telling the photogrpaher to do some QC first is a legitimite comment. Saying it is crap is a very precise comment, and saying the pics can be posted in the recycle bin is also appropriate if the pictures in question are trash mateiral.

These comments are directed at the pictures. Must we always sugar coat our comments?

Is the mod completely out of touch?

Question is, are the comments constructive in any sense? Are the words used can help better a TS's shot?

 

[sbs99]

its tough being a mod.

i was once handed abstracts catergory nong nong time ago...started out really good (clubsnap in its infancy stage), soon it became unmanagable as everybody wanted to post something they think it's "abstract", to the point most shots in there were almost anything goes. I couldn't tell them off to brush up their standards, as some would say im might be bit rigid or strict. End up only giving compliments only to good ones, and keeping quiet for the really bad ones. (as Reno77 think so too, he was a mod back then as well, if i could remember correctly)

As they say, like art, "abstract photography" is very subjective as well. I gave up after a while, it felt like it's as good as not moderating the group at all, practically doing nothing while it ran amok. I gave up showing my own stuff online (till recently). I havent gone in there (abstracts) since...eons ago. (maybe its better now with more capable mods?)
:sweatsm:

goofing off here nowadays seems erm......more enticing. :bsmilie:

 

[eikin]

its tough being a mod.

i was once handed abstracts catergory nong nong time ago...started out really good (clubsnap in its infancy stage), soon it became unmanagable as everybody wanted to post something they think it's "abstract", to the point most shots in there were almost anything goes. I couldn't tell them off to brush up their standards, as some would say im might be bit rigid or strict. End up only giving compliments only to good ones, and keeping quiet for the really bad ones. (as Reno77 think so too, he was a mod back then as well, if i could remember correctly)

As they say, like art, "abstract photography" is very subjective as well. I gave up after a while, it felt like it's as good as not moderating the group at all, practically doing nothing while it ran amok. I gave up showing my own stuff online (till recently). I havent gone in there (abstracts) since...eons ago. (maybe its better now with more capable mods?)
:sweatsm:

goofing off here nowadays seems erm......more enticing. :bsmilie:

there are things everyone cannot stand, that includes the unnecessary sugarcoating some enclaves subscribe to in CS.

anyway there's the critique corner now, anyone seeking critique can to do their postings there, and leave the galleries more for sharing. just don't cry foul when one gets a reality check more than one had bargained for in critique corner, of course personal attacks and degrading remarks are also not allowed there.

 

[Deadpoet]

Is constructive a requirement before we can post? If that is, many of the compliments I seen psoted are definately not constructive whatsoever. So, how? Only criticism needs to be constructive, not compliments?

If a picture is bad, very bad or horrible, telling the psoter that the picture should be trashed, telling the psoter to work on quality control, telling the poster that is its trashed is in itself constructive comments. Why? They are honest comments and hopefully, the psoter can learn of previous mistakes.

 

[Deadpoet]

there are things everyone cannot stand, that includes the unnecessary sugarcoating some enclaves subscribe to in CS.

anyway there's the critique corner now, anyone seeking critique can to do their postings there, and leave the galleries more for sharing. just don't cry foul when one gets a reality check more than one had bargained for in critique corner, of course personal attacks and degrading remarks are also not allowed there.

Well said!!!
But what are the mod's business to be the champion of "sugar coated" comments?

 

[night86mare]

Is constructive a requirement before we can post? If that is, many of the compliments I seen psoted are definately not constructive whatsoever. So, how? Only criticism needs to be constructive, not compliments?

If a picture is bad, very bad or horrible, telling the psoter that the picture should be trashed, telling the psoter to work on quality control, telling the poster that is its trashed is in itself constructive comments. Why? They are honest comments and hopefully, the psoter can learn of previous mistakes.

You see, there are so many ways of telling somebody why his photograph is good. But the idea is improvement. Saying it is good simply lends him support, nothing more. So my view is that there is no real need to really explain why a photograph is good. After all, some people can find absolutely trashy photographs nice sometimes, it is not impossible.

Well, at least here got Kopitiam, the last forums I frequented, no OT allowed, and no chit-chatting. Everything had to be on the subject at hand. Though of course people snuck a few chatty posts here and there, and the admin closed one eye at times.

But why should the photograph be trashed? You see, we assume that the photographer posting his photographs is looking to IMPROVE. There is no other reason why he would want to post them except to see the people's response to them. Positive is just good, and should be taken with a pinch of salt, but critique with sincerity (i.e. not for the sake of nitpicking) should always be taken to heart, there is something to learn from every comment no matter how harsh.

Honest and sincere are 2 different things.

 

[StreetShooter]

Well said!!!
But what are the mod's business to be the champion of "sugar coated" comments?

It's very simple. The mod's job is to keep the peace. Sugar coated comments help to keep the peace.

Brutally honest, raw, abrasive, insulting, non-constructive comments usually create bruised egos and frayed tempers resulting in personal vendettas and pointless arguments.

Hence, it is indeed a mod's business to be a champion of sugar coated comments.

 

[eikin]

Is constructive a requirement before we can post? If that is, many of the compliments I seen psoted are definately not constructive whatsoever. So, how? Only criticism needs to be constructive, not compliments?

If a picture is bad, very bad or horrible, telling the psoter that the picture should be trashed, telling the psoter to work on quality control, telling the poster that is its trashed is in itself constructive comments. Why? They are honest comments and hopefully, the psoter can learn of previous mistakes.

there are all kinds of people. how do you know that your trashing comments will help the picture poster? you can be honest, but there's no need to show contempt.

 

[Deadpoet]

there are all kinds of people. how do you know that your trashing comments will help the picture poster? you can be honest, but there's no need to show contempt.

If I post a picture, and it's sucks, and you said that I shoulod throw it in the trash, how did you show contempt?

Actually, none of us who comments, knows for sure if our comments will be helpful. But honesty is the least we should do.

 

[Deadpoet]

It's very simple. The mod's job is to keep the peace. Sugar coated comments help to keep the peace.

Brutally honest, raw, abrasive, insulting, non-constructive comments usually create bruised egos and frayed tempers resulting in personal vendettas and pointless arguments.

Hence, it is indeed a mod's business to be a champion of sugar coated comments.

Sugar Coating a comment is amount to lying.

Or has CS lowered itself to such low levels?

 

[night86mare]

Hence, it is indeed a mod's business to be a champion of sugar coated comments.

Probably not sugar-coated per se. But at least something which is civil. Of course, if everyone was mature and would really mean it when they ask for honest C&C, then I guess more people will get honest C&C. =)

 

[SilentWave]

CS is a forum with members at all levels with varied aims in their participation in photography.

in such an open forum as this, it's always good to give your benefit of doubt in your first post/first response addressing another's works. there's no need to sugarcoat, in the examples you've raised, we don't even know how much experience the TS of the thread in question has had, at what level are we judging the TS? i've seen the pictures, and i believe they are taken by someone with little photography experience, also getting the hint from the TS's membership status. but that's my believe. base on that, i think the perceived 'lack in quality' is 'fair' and it'll be too much to expect the TS to be showing us fantastic event coverage pictures.

if you want to give feedback on pictures, comment appropriately, in accordance to the other party's experience/level in relation to your own.

i would not be surprised that some recognised portraiture photographers will find that your pictures sucks. but do they need to tell you that they sucks? they might probably just think that you're not engaged in photography at their level, so there's really no need to say such things.

please remember that other than seeking critique and advice, CS is also open for picture sharing. if you think you can contribute something to a picture poster to help him/her improve the shot, just be honest about it, no need sugarcoat, neither is there a need to decorate your sentences with degrading remarks.

BINGO! You hit the nail on the head.

 

[eikin]

Well said!!!
But what are the mod's business to be the champion of "sugar coated" comments?

you are making unfair allegations.

comments that are easy going do not get trimmed because they don't cause rivalry and hate. that doesn't mean that they are always welcomed. specific enclaves can lick up themselves all they want, if they don't improve time will tell.

we are here to share knowledge, and hopefully contribute to raise the standards of the galleries, not here to tell the other person that he/she sucks and don't deserve a place in the forum.

encouraging good postings, giving credits to good shots are the main methods to improve the quality of the galleries.

the problem now is that people just love violence and witch-hunts, as if unloading their daily stresses on the forum, which is unfair to others who are here to really share, not add stress.

 

[night86mare]

If I post a picture, and it's sucks, and you said that I shoulod throw it in the trash, how did you show contempt?

Actually, none of us who comments, knows for sure if our comments will be helpful. But honesty is the least we should do.

Well, in a sense if YOU posted it, YOU would be thinking that there is some merit in it?

By saying that you should throw it in the trash, he would be questioning your taste, indirectly. Whether this is true or not remains to be seen, but the connotations are there. Of course all this would not be applicable in an Utopian world where everyone has an open mind, but unfortunately no such place exists.

 

[eikin]

If I post a picture, and it's sucks, and you said that I shoulod throw it in the trash, how did you show contempt?

Actually, none of us who comments, knows for sure if our comments will be helpful. But honesty is the least we should do.

thanks for giving me your assurance.

but we cannot force others to have the exact same attitude.

 

[eikin]

Sugar Coating a comment is amount to lying.

Or has CS lowered itself to such low levels?

you have raised an issue worth a discussion. but i do not see how going to the other extreme, insulting and degrading the other party is going to help solve the problem here.

 

[Deadpoet]

BINGO! You hit the nail on the head.

Thanks you.

Then let me bring everyone bvack to my original post, are the comments from TMC and chrisljh degrading, insulting and deserved the heavy handed treatment?

I say they are not deserving such treatment. Their statement are not the most eloquent, and they are not diplomatic, which I am almost always guilty of, but they hit it right on the nail. Why should they be warned. I thought their behavior are within tolerance.