Clubsnap magazine

[Atarandas]

Hmm I buy Digital Camera , Malaysian Edition monthly. I think its a good read . It has a mix of local articles and some foreign ones that can be found in Digital Camera ( UK edition).

If there will be a CS magazine , I will probably buy it . But I think its probably not going to work out in the long run as it takes alot of effort , money and people to get it running on a consistent basis.

Unless its the owner that start to do all these , members will lack all the motiviation needed to keep the magazine afloat.

With the internet media , I think the current clubsnap format has been excellent. Its much more informative and interactive than any other magazines on sale now. You get updates instantly to your queries. There are interesting posts from a myraid of individuals , theres much more freedom in expressing your views and opinions compared to a printed medium.

I find it strange that no Mods has spoken yet haha , or I have missed their replies. Maybe untill the Council has spoken , any discussion would be in vain.

 

[auralasia]

whether we used clubsnap for branding will depending on whether there is value in the brand. and if there is, is the marginal recognition worth paying for? if not, the magazine should be independent. personally i am for an independent magazine.

Absolutely agreed. CS is not, IMHO, a brand with any value outside of what it currently is: a killer forum for the exchange of photographic ideas, comments, classifieds, etc. I do not see how this can translate into a magazine with CS branding: as a physical magazine (which I don't think will work, I am only in favor of staying current and doing this electronically), the CS name means nothing to the photography enthusiast in a bookstore, and by the deafening silence of no mods commenting on the CS brand ownership issue, I am only interested in an independent magazine.

So - let's move forward and organize a sit-down for those who are interested, and we'll take things further in a real-time discussion. I foresee perhaps 4-6 people getting together who have either entrepreneurial experience, are full-time photographers, have experience in ad sales / marketing in the magazine or media fields or are experienced writers. There's an old phrase, "too many cooks spoil the broth", which means having too many people making decisions rarely works, so I'd suggest we keep things tight and small in this opening stage.

Please PM me if you're interested!

 

[laposto]

Please PM me if you're interested!

now were talking. lets meet and sit down together. pm sent!

 

[laposto]

anyone else wanna meet with us? :dunno:

 

[NeTHaCk]

anyone else wanna meet with us? :dunno:

time and place .. and location ?? haha

 

[laposto]

time and place .. and location ?? haha

so far we are only two as of the moment.. we are still planning.. probably we can have a dinner so we can sit and talk about magazine business. please PM auralasia

 

[Jed]

Okay no doubt for a variety of reasons this thread has slipped in under my radar and today is the first time that I've seen it.

I think it's a very good idea and something I would be massively interested in, but... and this is a big but... it's not as easy or as straightforward as it sounds, as some people have already pointed out.

One big stumbling block is market; Singapore is a very small market, there's no getting away from that. I believe that while we have a massive ratio of people owning cameras, at the end of the day there are only so many Singaporeans around.

While you might have designs on broadening out regionally and eventually maybe globally, you have to do well enough locally first, and if you can't do that then you're not going to be able to make the next step.

Ask yourselves how many of you have heard of the foreign Asian magazines that ed9119 has brought up? That will be the same impact that any new magazine we start up will have on people overseas.

Second, photography magazines in this part of the world are not entirely new. I remember having a discussion with Lance Lee about this when I was working with him at Asiaphoto.com prior to CS being formed. In those heady .com days we had a staff and a payroll and an office for the website, so magazines weren't that far fetched. The fact is Photo Asia had been around and Photo Asia had died out. And from what I remember of the magazine it wasn't bad, if maybe not particularly stunning either.

But therein lies the very real danger. Lots of you have pointed out that all the major magazines are foreign. Here's the bottom line; to succeed, any new magazine must 1 be better than them 2 be different from them. It might be possible to succeed just on the basis of point 2, but you have to have sufficient difference to merit that.

Let me explain that further from a different perspective. If you're a punter at the newstand, are you going to buy a good, established, foreign magazine? Or are you going to buy a new local magazine that's just started up that does what they do, just not as well (we haven't got the budget, for starters)? You can't blame the vast majority of people from picking the foreign equivalent. Not to mention they have arguably nicer scenery, nicer wildlife to showcase (compared to Singapore anyway).

That's why to succeed you need a certain amount of differentiation; in other words, you have to offer things the foreign magazines don't. What, is the difficult part. Once upon a time publicising local events would have been a big factor, but these days that role has fallen to websites such as this. Add in the fact that Singapore doesn't really have a massive "local event" scene for photography.

You can factor in local photographers. We have a few world class ones, but after a while they'll run out. And again the question goes, if you were a punter would you rather read about the best local photographers or the best photographers in the world (which the foreign magazines tend to offer), and you cannot fault the average punter for choosing the latter. If you start including the best photographers in the world, then the problem of differentiation comes back in again - why should I buy this when there are X, Y and Z that have been doing it very well for any number of years now?

Please do not take this as a damp squib, think of it more as pointing out hurdles that will need to be overcome.

As I said right at the beginning, it's something that I would be greatly interested in working on as it's right up my street. I can bring a strong writing background to the table with sound photographic knowledge and almost ten years as a working photographer, in addition to a Masters degree in the photographic image.

 

[auralasia]

Excellent points by Jed, although I do think we should watch very carefully what happens at the 26th January Apple event where they are certain to announce their 10" multitouch tablet that is rumored to have deals in place with New York Times, Sports Illustrated and others to bring publications to readers in a wholly new and digital format. There will always be a place for hard copy magazines, but launching a printed magazine seems to not take advantage of a fast-moving technology that is going to make digital magazines that much more compelling.

Right now, only Laposto has PM'ed me about getting together, would love to be more than an army of 2 in this adventure!

 

[laposto]

Excellent points by Jed, although I do think we should watch very carefully what happens at the 26th January Apple event where they are certain to announce their 10" multitouch tablet that is rumored to have deals in place with New York Times, Sports Illustrated and others to bring publications to readers in a wholly new and digital format. There will always be a place for hard copy magazines, but launching a printed magazine seems to not take advantage of a fast-moving technology that is going to make digital magazines that much more compelling.

Right now, only Laposto has PM'ed me about getting together, would love to be more than an army of 2 in this adventure!

very nice points for both of you.

Since singapore is a tech country and most of the people are techy savvy and surronded by toys and gizmos we can take a portion of this advantage. I was thinking about a magazine that will consume its pages in reviews, toys & gizmos related to photography like wacom tablets and claening kits and camera cases and starps, events (workshops or exhibits), featured photographers (foreign or local) and the the most valued part of this is... the reviews has the start price of the new items based in Asia Pacific Market. Some people travel to asia just to buy this stuff because asia is producing them much inexpensive than other country (there are some parts in europe that are cheap also).

The notion is very much considered.. appreciate some points being posted in this thread and we can apply these ideas to reduce our inequities.

 

[Jed]

I was thinking about a magazine that will consume its pages in reviews, toys & gizmos related to photography like wacom tablets and claening kits and camera cases and starps

The problem is, as I said, currently the market is already saturated with magazines that cover these areas. It's like in any area of business, you have to have something to bring to the market. You could do reviews, toys and gizmos better than the established magazines, but that's a very, very tall order, starting out from scratch.

events (workshops or exhibits)

This is, as mentioned before, limited by the fact that magazines suffer from lead times and don't get published more often than once a month in general. This is something that ClubSNAP will always do better than any print medium, for example.

and the the most valued part of this is... the reviews has the start price of the new items based in Asia Pacific Market. Some people travel to asia just to buy this stuff because asia is producing them much inexpensive than other country (there are some parts in europe that are cheap also).

Several points. Camera gear is now markedly cheaper in the US and HK, amongst several other places. Even the UK which is notoriously expensive even amongst European markets, is only maybe 10% more than Singapore now, and for certain less common products (ie not the major camera brands) they are actually more expensive in Singapore than the UK, nevermind say the US or HK.

Second, again you're going to struggle because of the Internet. Granted it takes 2s to find out the price of something in the UK because everything is online, and nothing in Singapore is (the whole e-quote thing is sketchy at best, and that's being polite), but at the end of the day a quick pop into various online forums will provide a good answer to cost, and arguably a more accurate answer because of the next point.

Third, what price are you going to put down? RRP is a fairly useless starting point. Half the shops in Singapore will quote different prices based on whether you ask online, walk into the shop, how you dress, whether you are local or foreign, whether you have a cheap or expensive camera hanging off your shoulder, and whether they know you or like you.

Again, this is just open dialogue. I'm totally happy to be convinced of the feasibility of this, but these are issues that need to be addressed before money is poured into it.

 

[cavemonkey]

I have a pointer for the floor to ponder on.

I myself have bought several western photography magazines but I realise that they all have 1 thing in common. The topics that are published are always in repetition. Exposure, composition, lighting, FOV, etc...
So if one would just buy 1 yr of that magazine, he can forget about buying it after that. Cos it just repeats over and over again.
Thus, if ever this magazine is going to be published, this might need to be avoided.

And also do take a look at our asian magazines. I would actually prefer getting our own magazines if not for the fact that I take a REALLY long time just to read finish 1 chinese article. The contents that they have are a lot more refreshing and a lot more closer to us. It relates better to us as it is so much closer to us.

And also I know there are ppl out there trying to weigh the pros and cons of this magazine. It is good. At least it is an all-rounder thought. But wouldn't it be better if every person just contribute 1 positive suggestion into this. I mean this thread would have 111 positive suggestions by the time I post this.
At the end of the day I believe it is the way of thought that influence a move. And ultimately it is one's own passion that fuel this way of thought. So how strong is your passion?

Oh can I be part of this? I just pmed auralasia. I will try to be of help some way or the other.

 

[Jed]

I myself have bought several western photography magazines but I realise that they all have 1 thing in common. The topics that are published are always in repetition. Exposure, composition, lighting, FOV, etc...
So if one would just buy 1 yr of that magazine, he can forget about buying it after that. Cos it just repeats over and over again.
Thus, if ever this magazine is going to be published, this might need to be avoided.

That's a good point yes, but I think that's vaguely hamstrung by the fact that photography is, well, photography! The same types of things are going to come up.

I'll be amazed for example if a local photography magazine didn't publish a fireworks article to co-incide with national day. You can of course publish *different* types of fireworks articles, that's down to the editorial team. But after a few years, the average reader will think... another fireworks article.

There are some magazines that do have niche roles; some try to focus more on the business side of things for example, while others do location recommendations better than others.

As I said before, I would love to be involved if we can get this off the ground.

 

[ClipperSG]

Hi All

I've been following this thread since it started, and I must say its been interesting discussions for now. But there are some key overlooked points in the thread.

I've been in the press and printing industry for 16 years, doing everything from prepress to postpress. In my later roles as management, I've also seen and interact with hundreds of clients who have ideas which they try to bring to reality. Today, I'm in Business Development with a MNC in the industry, and I interact with the company's customers who utilise their print infrastructure investment to have their expected ROI.

This magazine idea seems a very straightforward one on the surface..but scratch a little deeper and you are going to be opening a Pandora's box of potential and definite issues. I've seen this before in so many magazines and publications, that its always amazing when history repeats itself. Its like nobody ever bothers to take note of it, and the same mistakes are committed again.

Allow me the chance to put forward some of my own experiences and observations so that, hopefully, it might survive longer than most.

1) PASSION DOESN'T FILL YOUR STOMACH
The above statement is self-explanatory. While you can go on about your interest, your passion and your desire to write/shoot/edit/buy kopi/print for the magazine, the cold hard reality is that everything is a job. It is a job which will requires money to be procured, in order to be disbursed as a salary.

Like it or not, anybody that wants to get involved in the magazine, will have to regard it as a job..a paid job no less. Anything else is pure delusion.

2) HATE IT OR LOVE IT...MONEY TALKS
This is a real world that we live in..not Second Life. So money talks. You want to register as a company for the magazine..pay. Intending to buy your first set of stationery..pay. Want to print your first 50 debut copies..pay. Need a designer..pay. Buying kopi for everybody..pay. So the first thing on everyone's agenda should be money.

3) A MOUNTAIN CAN ONLY HAVE ONE TIGER
I see from msg #59, a tentative list of names and positions have been suggested. Bravo to that. Now the acid test, who's the tiger? Who's going to be the one to call the shots? Who's going to take both the glory and crap that comes along with each decision? And most important, will the other mini-tigers listen..or are they going to form another sub-committee to agree to disagree? Remember, there can only be one General...the rest are soldiers...like it or not.

4) IS IT YOURS?
For all the discussions in the thread, there is still one important issue, which was rightly pointed out by auralasia. Is the name Clubsnap even yours to begin with? If it is not, all the discussions are moot.

Perhaps the most practical idea would be to just do an independent magazine, and check later if CS would lke to be included as the title placeholder. However, be aware that if CS decides to take over the magazine, the committee will no longer have any say..refer to point 3.

5) READERSHIP MARKET
This is very important as the magazine will be in a public space. Some of you have argued for a "not another basic exposure article" sort of magazine. Whether you realise it or not, if you want to even have a shot at survival, you have to appeal to the mass market. The regular Joe in the street is the one that's going to pay for the magazine's cost, not the professional photographer. This is one time where the "20% = 80% of business" concept doesn't work.

A lot of magazines always have lofty ideas about appealing to a very specialised niche market, and trying to avoid being "common". This is a guaranteed self-destruction idealogy. Name any magazine that has managed to stay "niche" for their entire life. Sooner or later all magazines start to be the same. If you are lucky, some big company may absorb it and it will have another shot at survival. If not, be realistic and accept that there is a beginning and an end.

6) CONSISTENCY
This is the heart and soul. There is already talk about being a 36pp 4/4 magazine at 2000 copies, etc. I'm sorry to say but this is jumping way ahead of the bandwagon. Its nice to be enthusiastic and daring...its another to be blindly charging in.

In the magazine survival game, one factor that is often overlooked is consistency. This is so overlooked that it is a foreign concept to most. Let me try to give a simple example of this consistency factor.

Say, someone comes to me and wants to do a new music magazine, and he wants to start the 1st issue as a 48pp, 4/4, 157gsm gloss-coated magazine. You know what my advice would be? Start with a 24pp, 1/1 on 54gsm newsprint. You might ask "Why would you even suggest that?"

Because if I had gone along with his initial idea, and after 3 issues, the advertising dropped out or didn't materialised...what happens? I would be forced to downgrade from a 48pp, 4/4 to a 32pp, 4/4, to even 24pp 2/2. I might also have to reduce the quality of the paper used, cut back on the articles, and start cutting corners.

But if I started with the second plan, and stayed consistent, I could grow to a point where I might have a 4/4 cover, and maybe a 2nd or 3rd spot on selected pages, and even add some pages as the advertising or articles grew. The readers will start to have that bit of perception in wondering what surprises the next issue holds.

The key issue in consistency is that the public perception of your magazine will begin to fade if you start on a high note and start cutting back. They will definitely feel letdown and the potential advertiser's trust in it will erode. And in today's multi-facted media industry...the perception and trust fades faster than you can say "Canon". Think like the tortoise rather than the hare.

A few of you have mentioned about your academic credentials in marketing, photography skills, etc. While this is good, everybody has forgotten the most important credential...being a realist.

Today's local and global business environment is highly dynamic. What you read in your marketing text books no longer hold any water. At every corner, someone is coming up with a new way of marketing themselves. Think social media marketing (Twitter, Facebook), trust economy marketing (eBay, Yahoo auctions), viral marketing (Youtube), community marketing (blogs).

Proven methods like The Black Swan, The Long Tail, Wisdom of Crowds, Six Pixels of Separation, Viral Expansion, Faith-Based Economy and C-2-C are now being used by companies and entrepreneurs in selling and marketing.

If you can't even begin to tap into these avenues, but still stick to traditional media channels for the magazine, then I'm afraid its going to be at best, a short-lived experiment in how not to do a magazine.

I'm sure I've given most of you enough headaches and bursting brains trying to digest what I have just written. So I've better sign off now. But I'll definitely be following this thread as I'm interested to see how it all turns out.

Make Mine Excelsior!

 

[Jed]

Good points ClipperSG, and ones I agree with.

1) PASSION DOESN'T FILL YOUR STOMACH

Absolutely, and in essence I've already tried to make this point by stressing that the magazine will have to be a success and that there are plenty of hurdles to overcome before it will be.

Like it or not, anybody that wants to get involved in the magazine, will have to regard it as a job..a paid job no less. Anything else is pure delusion.

Absolutely, as am I, except I think you're giving the idea more credit than it's due; I don't think we're that far along yet as I don't think we've made any sort of decision about whether to even pursue it beyond a random chat on a forum - there hasn't even been a first meeting ^.^

4) IS IT YOURS?

Personally I'm not sure how important the ClubSNAP title is. You're right, we don't own it, and the admins are largely busy with life outside of the Internet forum. But I haven't really focused on this point because I'm not sure how integral it is to the success or failure of any venture.

5) READERSHIP MARKET
This is very important as the magazine will be in a public space. Some of you have argued for a "not another basic exposure article" sort of magazine. Whether you realise it or not, if you want to even have a shot at survival, you have to appeal to the mass market. The regular Joe in the street is the one that's going to pay for the magazine's cost, not the professional photographer. This is one time where the "20% = 80% of business" concept doesn't work.

Hmm, I hope you're not referring to my comments, because this is not what I'm implying. I stress again, absolutely as you say that you have to cater to the mass market, but you also have to offer something else. Otherwise there are plenty of established titles run by people with far more experience and far more resources and far more connections in the industry, already catering to the mass market, that if that's all you did then you would fail. The emphasis on this being something local, although I'm not sure there's enough local around.

A lot of magazines always have lofty ideas about appealing to a very specialised niche market, and trying to avoid being "common". This is a guaranteed self-destruction idealogy. Name any magazine that has managed to stay "niche" for their entire life. Sooner or later all magazines start to be the same. If you are lucky, some big company may absorb it and it will have another shot at survival. If not, be realistic and accept that there is a beginning and an end.

Again, I hope you haven't drawn this idea from my comments. Perhaps when I mentioned "niche roles" in my previous post I could have used a different phrase, but the further explanation in there explains my point. There are magazines that do the mass market absolutely, but they have things they focus on a little bit more.

6) CONSISTENCY
This is the heart and soul. There is already talk about being a 36pp 4/4 magazine at 2000 copies, etc. I'm sorry to say but this is jumping way ahead of the bandwagon. Its nice to be enthusiastic and daring...its another to be blindly charging in.

Agree completely which is why I've been bleating caution in posts almost as long as yours

 

[pokiemon]

guys - my take i repeat.

1. do an independent mag - there's no need to use CS name.
2. form a committee - there will always be believers and non-believers. work with believers and take the feedback of non-believers.

i think the next step is to form a committee and to meet up. pm each other your mobile. you can continue to generate ideas from this thread.

anyways, from the thread i have identified:
1. laposto - main contributor
2. shutterooz - design and adv
3. whizzard - ?
4. aidil omar - marketing and business mgmt
5. pokiemon - strategic marketing and finance
6. auralasia - ?
7. siandy - contributor
8.

once committee is formed, we can brainstorm for USP, distribution method, medium etc.

 

[ClipperSG]

Jed

I can assure you that my points were definitely not in response to your points made. It was more of a general opinion from my POV.

I have my thoughts as to how the magazine should be done too..but until the basics are settled, its a moot discussion.

There are many ways to have a magazine in the public space, and they don't have to involve printing or even a pricing model. But I guess being creatures of habit, most would feel comfortable with traditional methods.

 

[astroboy]

Scrolling quickly down the thread (due to time constraints), I think auralasia, Jed and ClipperSG have some sense of what's going on.

It's certainly a nice idea and easy to get excited about.

But I think if someone bother to draw up a Business Plan and start to fill in the dollars & cents, it would tell something about the viability of this project.

Not to sound like I am pouring cold water but look at past local mags of this genre. Grain folded after, what, 1 year? There was another one, can't remember the name, later headed by Julian W, which folded as well. Then Photo-I-whatever which was on the brink of collapse but saved by Hardware Zone, who in turn is owned by someone else... I think SPH? Can't remember. Many others came and went. Even in a larger market like the US, JPG mag folded for a few months but was later revived thanks to a sponsor?

If you look at the local mags currently out there, they are mostly owned by a giants like SPH Magazines, etc. They go by economies of scale, meaning one mag lose money, another one covers for it.

A company with just one title would find it harder to survive. The main income would be from advertising revenue. And who would advertise in a photography magazine? Canon? Nikon? They are all pretty stretched out in terms of budget. And it's their ad/media agencies who plan their ad spending. Media buyers are not stupid, they have a series of formulas for calculating whether your mag will be the appropriate media vehicle for them to reach out to the target audience (eg cost per thousand etc).

Even if you do get someone who knows someone to pull some strings, let's say Canon, to commit to be anchor advertiser, say for 12 issues, after that what? They are not going to support you for life. And you cannot just bank on 1 or 2 big advertisers.

Now think of the costs. The killer would be:
- printing costs
- distribution costs
- wages (no one works for free)
- overheads (rental, etc)
- equipment costs (PCs, cameras, etc)

Without strong advertising support, no way Singapore's small readership can support a magazine, especially if it caters to a small niche market like photography. If you do a random survey, most mags on the shelves are for mass audience eg bridal/wedding (who doesn't get married?), home/decor (who doesn't get an apt eventually?), lifestyle, men, women, etc. The only hobby mags that make it are the international ones and they have the worldwide readership to support them.

But nothing is impossible. There are some ways to go about it. But it's getting late and I am getting tired.

PS: I am just talking about print. I let someone else talk about the viability of online.

 

[geeteethree]

Better of doing a web podcast. whether it is a video/audio. something with some news, tips that is updated every two weeks. Costs next to nothing to make and something you can do with a passion without it hurting financially.

 

[ClipperSG]

I think geeteethree should be in the committee.

He has completely understood and applied the full concept of consistency with regards to the proposed magazine.

And, whether he realises or not, he has also incorporated the Wisdom of Crowds and Viral Expansion marketing methods, which are essentially the successful types of online marketing for any product or service.

This was what I meant by non-traditional media channels. It is really the only way to start without having to rob a bank to fulfill the financial element.

 

[auralasia]

Monday January 18th - 8pm - Location TBA

Who's available to have an informal chat about turning this into a reality? It may be that I'm barking up the wrong tree, but I do sense that there are number of posters in this thread who do like the print format (hey - I buy a load of photo-related magazines every month, so it's not as if I don't like having something in my hand to hold while reading) and may want to pursue going down that path, but it's not a format that I would consider investing my time & money into, although I wish any committee looking at a print magazine every success.

So, I'm proposing a sit-down this Monday evening, which I know is short notice but we live at Internet speed anyway, Monday evening is 55 hours away as I write, based on what I think is an interesting format being:

1. an independent publication
2. online, not print
3. innovative / fresh approach
4. Singapore slant

I'm looking through some of the previous posts and there are many posts that are very well written and have, IMHO, been written with a business perspective in mind and grounded in reality. I'll PM those members, and also keep in mind those who have PM'ed me, and we'll try to see if Monday evening (which I am hoping is a slow night for most of us and for which we could fit in a dinner / coffee on short notice) is workable.