Bernice Wong in Bungalow

[Canonised]

Personally I think DP's concept of "no messy hair" in posed portraits is right in most situations, and most of us, newbies should take good note of. Many times a photo will be more perfect if not for those hair at the wrong place. Through him, I have learned to be a bit more careful with the hair of a model and i think it is the right move. But Doc loves for messy/natural flowing hair concept is not wrong either. The photo will looks more natural but only on certain situations where "natural" posing is wanted.
Also not all models look nice in "messy hair", especially the chinese models. Gong Li, Zhang ZiYi, etc .... imagine how they look if their hair are messy ...
But model like Farrah Fawcett will look very natural in messy format. Even that, many of her Charlie's Angels promotional posters have her in neatly placed hair in her "messy" hair style.
Please Doc, learn to let go. You are not wrong, but others are not wrong either. :think: Accept and believe that there are many rights in a wrong and many wrongs in a right.
Don't shoot me, i am just a piano player ........ :cry:

 

[student]

I still hate messy hair.

But I wonder, did I mentioned messy hair in Joe's thread?

Sorry Joe, I am going to OT in your thread.

I have said it before, I won't start a fight, but I will finish any fight anyone drag me into. Right now, it looks to me, someone is picking a fight. Better back off!

Rest assured I will give a reply tomorrow.

 

[student]

Personally I think DP's concept of "no messy hair" in posed portraits is right in most situations, and most of us, newbies should take good note of. Many times a photo will be more perfect if not for those hair at the wrong place. Through him, I have learned to be a bit more careful with the hair of a model and i think it is the right move. But Doc loves for messy/natural flowing hair concept is not wrong either. The photo will looks more natural but only on certain situations where "natural" posing is wanted.
Also not all models look nice in "messy hair", especially the chinese models. Gong Li, Zhang ZiYi, etc .... imagine how they look if their hair are messy ...
But model like Farrah Fawcett will look very natural in messy format. Even that, many of her Charlie's Angels promotional posters have her in neatly placed hair in her "messy" hair style.
Please Doc, learn to let go. You are not wrong, but others are not wrong either. :think: Accept and believe that there are many rights in a wrong and many wrongs in a right.
Don't shoot me, i am just a piano player ........ :cry:

I will reply to you tomorrow.

 

[Canonised]

I will reply to you tomorrow.

PLEASE DON'T ...... :sweat:
NO NEED ...... :sweat:

I will get nightmare tonight ......

 

[Deadpoet]

Rest assured I will give a reply tomorrow.

Why are you replying? No need and I wont be holding my breath. But if you insist, I cannot and will not stop you.

 

[student]

Why are you replying? No need and I wont be holding my breath. But if you insist, I cannot and will not stop you.

You can't stop me even if you wanted to. Absolute freedom of speech remember?

 

[student]

I still hate messy hair.

But I wonder, did I mentioned messy hair in Joe's thread?

Sorry Joe, I am going to OT in your thread.

I have said it before, I won't start a fight, but I will finish any fight anyone drag me into. Right now, it looks to me, someone is picking a fight. Better back off!

I am not God Almighty and I do not know if the "someone" you are referring to is me. I assume it is me, because I am the only one who gave a "lengthy" comment on messy hair in this thread.

You said that you do not want to start a fight, but your tone is extremely confrontational.

"Better back off".

And in another thread, you wrote "Gloves off".

Since I do agree with you on the freedom of speech and expression, these repeated threats of yours appear to me to be inconsistent with freedom of speech. You want to sock me with your bare knuckles? I had not taken up the challenge the previous round, but here you issued a threat again. This time, I will oblige you.

Now let me get back to this thread.

My post here was a reply to Joe because of what he wrote

"I KNOW, MESSY HAIR"

In writing this, Joe gave an impression that messy hair was a NO NO! Why did he say that?

It takes no imagination to know that there is someone here on a crusade against messy hair. And Joe was so cowed that he was almost "apologetic" and "fearful" that he wrote, "I Know, messy hair".

Now where did that arise from? Was Joe's apologetic statement necessary?

So I set out to explain. And since you replied, obviously to what I wrote, and warned me to "Better back off", I ask you, which of my comments were out of line?

Is it wrong to say that critiques reflect on the person giving the critique?

Is it wrong to say that critiques are not gospel truths?

Is it wrong to say that it is OK for the person to dislike messy hairs?

Is it wrong to say that it is not OK for any person to push his opinions on messy hairs as if the opinions were like "photography commandments"? This is precisely what had happened with Joe writing this way.

Is it wrong to say that images are visual communications? And the author alone should decide how he wants to communicate?

Is it wrong to say "hear what others say, but do not be apologetic about what you are trying to communicate"?

Is it wrong to show and inform that great photographers had made great images of supermodels with messy hairs?

Is it wrong to say that those images with messy hairs (stage or "accidental") work because those photographers knew what they want to communicate?

Is it wrong to suggest to Joe to look at lots and lots of images, and learn from their imageries?

And if Joe study these images, he will soon realise that these great photographers break so many of your "rules" and your likes and dislikes.

Now then there is a dilemma. Who should Joe listen to -if he were given conflicting opinions?

You? I do not want to assume you know little about photography. You might be a great photographer. But I have no means to assess your worth as a photographer. And as far as I am concern, the few images you showed in this forum suck. And since your images suck, I conclude you have little credentials as a photographers. I conclude your crusade against messy hairs and other issues, have that hollowness to it.

You are like a cartographer telling a sailor how to sail.

So Joe has a dilemma.

Who should he listen to? Whom should he take advice from?

A sailor? Or a cartographer?

Oh, and did I tell Joe that his images must have messy hairs?

 

[teckyy]

And as far as I am concern, the few images you showed in this forum suck. And since your images suck, I conclude you have little credentials as a photographers. I conclude your crusade against messy hairs and other issues, have that hollowness to it.

So do yours, as far as I am concerned. So maybe you should stop commenting as well?

 

[Deadpoet]

You can't stop me even if you wanted to. Absolute freedom of speech remember?

Actually, you have all the rights to say whatever you feel like. I am not going to stop you. But, time and time again, you drag me into threads and discussion I am not part of, now I am responding.

I hope I am being confrontational. I don't want you to misread my intention.

I am putting you on the ignore list. I have no time to read your post. Why? Simple. I have no time for insecured photographers who have to repeatedly quote other established photographers to justify his existance.

 

[student]

Personally I think DP's concept of "no messy hair" in posed portraits is right in most situations, and most of us, newbies should take good note of. Many times a photo will be more perfect if not for those hair at the wrong place. Through him, I have learned to be a bit more careful with the hair of a model and i think it is the right move

I am not on a crusade to make CSers here take pictures with messy hair. I do not comment on images unless specifically asked for. I do not tell peole how to take photographs.

Images are visual comunications, whether these images are posed, in studio, out of studio, is of secondary importance.

Who is to decide whether messy hair is appropriate or not? The photographer and his intended viewers. And in many several acknowledged fine art photographers, the viewers do not even come into the equation.

The viewer can only say whether they like it or not. But the photographer alone decides. I am of course talking about "pure photography". Not taking passport and convocation images in HDB studios

But Doc loves for messy/natural flowing hair concept is not wrong either. The photo will looks more natural but only on certain situations where "natural" posing is wanted.

Also not all models look nice in "messy hair", especially the chinese models. Gong Li, Zhang ZiYi, etc .... imagine how they look if their hair are messy ...
But model like Farrah Fawcett will look very natural in messy format. Even that, many of her Charlie's Angels promotional posters have her in neatly placed hair in her "messy" hair style.

Listen to yourself. Why do you say that FF looks very natural in messy format? And GongLi and Zhang Ziyi might be different?

Sadly, you are a victim of propaganda, and you do not even know about it. These images are crafted by promoters to create a certain image. And they succeeded in brainwashing you for you to make these statements.

People here want to talk about creativity?

How in the world can anyone talk about creativity when you have the idea that certain things can only be done in a certain way? How can there be creativity when there are so many rules?

I will not name names. But there is a certain individual here who wrote to me, lamenting his images after he saw mine. He wanted to "experiment". But knowing this individual now a little better - how he set up fences aroung himself - he will have a very hard time to try to be creative.

Thankfully, I did not have "gurus" like DP to give me "advice" when I started. Thankfully, my mentors instilled in me a concept of trying to work with the "third eye". Damn difficult, because humans like rules.

My images may suck, but at least, in Pablo's eyes, my images resulted in him saying in response to my image of Asheigh, "appreciating styles I would not have been taking notice of".

Please Doc, learn to let go. You are not wrong, but others are not wrong either. :think: Accept and believe that there are many rights in a wrong and many wrongs in a right.
Don't shoot me, i am just a piano player ........ :cry:

Of course there are many ways to see things. Of course you are right to say "learn to let go"

Why don't you tell that to DP?

In imageries, I had NEVER tell someone that things should only be done in a certain way. Show me one. But if you are consistent with yourself, tell DP to "learn to let go", because he is the one who writes in to tell people what to do - and in very strong uncompromising tones!

Please realise that in the various threads where I took issues with different people, the issues are never about imageries. In the issue with ZC it was about unfair insinuations. In the issue with szekiat it was about using the right equipment for the right job.
In the issue with Littlewold (now where is little wolfie - disappeared and reincarnated with another nick?) it was about how to make proper exposures.

Never about esthetics, because I know esthetics are so subjective.

 

[syl]

Alamak! No fight ah. And we were all waiting with bated breath to witness tne Mother of All fights!:sticktong

(I'm on your side, PN, if you.ii have seconds :thumbsup: )

 

[teckyy]

My images may suck...

Then by your definition, "And since your images suck, I conclude you have little credentials as a photographers. I conclude your crusade against messy hairs and other issues, have that hollowness to it."

Enough said?

 

[Wisp]

Then by your definition, "And since your images suck, I conclude you have little credentials as a photographers. I conclude your crusade against messy hairs and other issues, have that hollowness to it."

Enough said?

Honestly teckyy, could you try not to be a know it all? *sigh* One student and one deadpoet is enough for this forum to handle.

Look up the dictionary meaning of power play. Student and deadpoet has more than enough credentials. Ever wondered why they could get away with their words for so long?

As for views on student:
Not that I like all his images mind you. Or I'm a follower/admirer of his. None of that. He follows his own path, I follow mine. I've long ago decided to seperate his on line personality with his real life personality.
And like I said before, I find him to be a rather friendly guy, an antithesis of his online personality.

I have been keeping quiet for a while, and personally I have come to this conclusion. As long as the new guys aren't subjected to any sort of reprisals, I would let things be. The only item of my concern would be the new guys get properly inducted so they won't fall into the 'saving face' and 'equipment madness syndrome'.

 

[joeteh]

Hi, all,

Thanks for the replies.

Just a simple clarification about messy hair. It is not meant to aim at anyone. My mentor had once told us that messy hair should normally be avoided. However, I do agree with Student and others that sometimes, messy hair put character in the subject. In my case, I told that the pic would look nicer if it is not "messy".

Enough of my say.

Joe

 

[student]

As for views on student:
Not that I like all his images mind you. Or I'm a follower/admirer of his. None of that. He follows his own path, I follow mine. I've long ago decided to seperate his on line personality with his real life personality.
And like I said before, I find him to be a rather friendly guy, an antithesis of his online personality.

There was once a guy from Ukraine who requested certain assistance, and asked if I could give him some articles through email. However I felt that digitalised information scanned from an old book will not be ideal. So I had the articles photocopied and sent to him!

And if you were to look at my history, you will find that I am very patient to give detail explanations to those who requests help.

But why this other side of my personality? Idiots and morons.

Why do I bother with idiots and morons? Actually I will be very happy to leave these idiots and morons to rot.

But the problem is that these idiots and morons keep on giving misleading and false information.

And yes, it is a character flaw I have.

I just do not tolerate fools!

I have been keeping quiet for a while, and personally I have come to this conclusion. As long as the new guys aren't subjected to any sort of reprisals, I would let things be. The only item of my concern would be the new guys get properly inducted so they won't fall into the 'saving face' and 'equipment madness syndrome'.

Wisp.

You just might be a little naive here.

Do you think this guy teckyy is a "new member"? This guy registered on 22 June 2006 and immediately launched a series of attacks on me.

Do you really think he is new? Or an old nut coming up with a new nick?

There are a number of people whim I had confronted, and to their credit, they remained themselves, such as Terence, ZC, szekiat.

Remember one who called himself littlewolf? After the roasting I gave him on Bobman's thread on Zone System, he became very quiet. He had no more replies to my dissection of his arguments. His last post was on 12 June 2006.

Then came 22 June and this teckyy came.

What do you think?

 

[waileong]

It's not a given that he was "cowed". It could also he knew it was a given that someone might say "messy hair" and so he did it as a sarcastic first strike. Just like you did in some of your titles "apololgies for messy hair, out of focus, etc". It's just a way of letting DP know that we are tired of his messy hair comments.

And if joe was not "cowed", then this whole episode was unnecessary here-- although I'm sure another occasion could have arisen for such an exchange to take place.

Wai Leong
===

It takes no imagination to know that there is someone here on a crusade against messy hair. And Joe was so cowed that he was almost "apologetic" and "fearful" that he wrote, "I Know, messy hair".

 

[student]

It's not a given that he was "cowed". It could also he knew it was a given that someone might say "messy hair" and so he did it as a sarcastic first strike. Just like you did in some of your titles "apololgies for messy hair, out of focus, etc". It's just a way of letting DP know that we are tired of his messy hair comments.

And if joe was not "cowed", then this whole episode was unnecessary here-- although I'm sure another occasion could have arisen for such an exchange to take place.

Wai Leong
===

Read what I wrote again please.

I had said that I hope it was written in jest.

But whatever the motive, it was written, and in response to earlier statements of messy hairs.

 

[student]

Actually, you have all the rights to say whatever you feel like. I am not going to stop you. But, time and time again, you drag me into threads and discussion I am not part of, now I am responding.

I hope I am being confrontational. I don't want you to misread my intention.

I am putting you on the ignore list. I have no time to read your post. Why? Simple. I have no time for insecured photographers who have to repeatedly quote other established photographers to justify his existance.

Wonderful!

After issuing threats and throwing challenges, you are backing off the fight? You wanted a fight, and I gave you one. I thought you said you will finished any fight?

What is wrong to learn from established photographers? Actually I do not even have to quote established photographers. The fact is that your credentials as a photographer is at best suspect. You had chosen not to show your images but rely on the "absolute right to free speech". But you want to talk like an authority on photography.

Wrong to listen from experts? Wiser to listen to you? Only fools will ignore counsel from experts and take advice from those with little credentials.

Come on! Tell me what was wrong with my comments to Joe. The reasons for your threat.

 

[teckyy]

Student and deadpoet has more than enough credentials. Ever wondered why they could get away with their words for so long?

.

Why? ?

 

[teckyy]

The guy has admitted his own photos suck but continue to say the same thing about others. So tell me why Wispy?