How How to win arguments and influence people in CS?

[Limsgp]

I feel the important thing is to focus on subject matter and refrain from using insulting remarks just trying to "win".

A says he saw a tiger in the sky. B accuse A of "story-telling" and/or "unsound logic" w/o trying to confirm/verify the details/facts or asking how did the tiger end up in the air. And then clinging on to the mistaken belief that if the tiger can be up there, then elephants can too.

In some cases, win or not is never the key point. But throwing insults and sarcastic remarks will definitely attract further responses to disperse the accusations and insults by way of material evidences.

So, if all parties focus on subject matter right from the beginning and not degrade to insults or personal attacks and such, the discussions will end short and simple.

Simple CS T&C/guideline. Be civil.

 

[night86mare]

haha. i sense danger in this thread again. soon!

i always tell this story about the old and the young monk.

there was once a young monk who was the disciple of an old, wise monk. naturally, part of the rules given to the young monk was to never touch a woman.

one day, there was a big downpour and the river broke its banks. the old and young monks were walking along the streets when they came across a flooded passageway, with a beautiful young woman pouting there. she asked them if they could help her cross by carrying her. the young monk hesitated, but the old monk just nonchalantly carried her across, wading through the waters.

they then proceeded on. the young monk was a bit uneasy about the incident that had just happened. finally he broke his silence and asked the old monk: "Wise Master, we are not allowed to touch women, why did you carry her?"

the old monk said: "i have carried her for a while. i put her down long ago, quite a way back. you are still carrying her."

another problem about arguing on the internet is that when people's feelings get hurt, they will go out of their way to take everything else you say as targeted at them. then they will try to appear wherever you are, get obsessed with you, bring up grandmother, grandfather story at every turn and it is troublesome. best to walk away and put it down. :bsmilie:

 

[Limsgp]

When you realize your line of argument doesn't hold water anymore, and cannot put down the "face" to apologize for the unwarranted insults, it's good exit strategy to "put it down" and just "let it pass", and still pretend to stand on "moral high ground".

Just a POV. No right or wrong no need to argue.

 

[night86mare]

When you realize your line of argument doesn't hold water anymore, and cannot put down the "face" to apologize for the unwarranted insults, it's good exit strategy to "put it down" and just "let it pass", and still pretend to stand on "moral high ground".

Just a POV. No right or wrong no need to argue.

you know, i'll say this once, and then continue ignoring your attempts at getting attention from me. you will not get it.

Grow Up.

stop acting like a spoilt 12 year old kid who couldn't get ice cream, so he goes around yammering to everyone and anyone that he can't get ice cream. do you notice that no one bothers? please spend your time and energy on better things in life.

cheers.

 

[allenleonhart]

and yep. war is coming. again!

chill out u 2. dun think so much already. go relax, have a cold beer and cool down...

 

[night86mare]

and yep. war is coming. again!

chill out u 2. dun think so much already. go relax, have a cold beer and cool down...

relax, i am trying to end this quickly. i don't think it'll work though. :bsmilie:

 

[Limsgp]

and yep. war is coming. again!

chill out u 2. dun think so much already. go relax, have a cold beer and cool down...

You see? Say it's water under bridge but when other hit the nail on the spot and somehow they cannot "move on" and let it pass. And the only comments available is that the other party is 12yo kids or something like that. No substantial subject material but only degrading remarks.

Same patterns everywhere.. short of throwing insults in a discussion.. what else is he capable of? Wonder who is acting like 12yo kid.. :bsmilie: Anyway, I guess I have already made my point. Probably will just try to let it pass unless something new pop up that warrant any attention..

 

[night86mare]

i think, i shall just refrain from replying to avoid unnecessary verbose declarations of affection.

apologies for all this display of nonsensical behaviour, i'll be out of here shortly.

 

[Canonised]

you know, i'll say this once, and then continue ignoring your attempts at getting attention from me. you will not get it.

Grow Up.

stop acting like a spoilt 12 year old kid who couldn't get ice cream, so he goes around yammering to everyone and anyone that he can't get ice cream. do you notice that no one bothers? please spend your time and energy on better things in life.

cheers.

I hope i don't appear to be personal, but IMHO, some of the things "the others" commented on you and your comments did look and sounded fair to us "watchers".

Personally, you write very well and many times your views are logical and philosophical :thumbsup:, abide long winded, many a times.

One thing that you may not realize is that some people, (i am one) see in your writing are that you always want to have the last say, and you tend to accuse others' actions without realizing that you were committing the same actions, and you never believe that others have their own views and ideas from their own experiences in life, which are vastly difference from yours or mine :dunno:

Please pardon me if I am too direct.

 

[night86mare]

One thing that you may not realize is that some people, (i am one) see in your writing are that you always want to have the last say, and you tend to accuse others' actions without realizing that you were committing the same actions, and you never believe that others have their own views and ideas from their own experiences in life, which are vastly difference from yours or mine :dunno:

Please pardon me if I am too direct.

fair enough - i acknowledge that and i'm moving away from that - hope you can see that. i don't find any need to have the last say here. just thought there was no need to start a fresh squabble - especially when i had walked away from the last one, some people just keep persisting. the comments made here were wholly intended to be general, but i don't know why people seem to think that it was made when there was no specificity in terms of pointing to any person, or any vague reference either.

i think to be fair to me, you and i have disagreed before, but have i ever been any less cordial when it came to a new subject? each issue should be taken separately, just because two people disagree on one subject doesn't mean that you have to go out of your way to make your own life miserable by trying to kamikaze the other person to death because he hurt your precious feelings by disagreeing.


cheers, and thanks for your honest comments. :thumbsup:

 

[Yappy]

Look at issue, be fair and no personnal attack!

对事不对人

 

[9V-Orion Images]

A says he saw a tiger in the sky. B accuse A of "story-telling" and/or "unsound logic" w/o trying to confirm/verify the details/facts or asking how did the tiger end up in the air. And then clinging on to the mistaken belief that if the tiger can be up there, then elephants can too.

If tigers were meant to fly, they would be born with wings. ;p

 

[kwttan]

Look at issue, be fair and no personnal attack!

对事不对人

'对事不对人' :thumbsup:.
During any discussion or dispute, need to be factual and if the person is a mediator, he/she needs to stay neutral.

 

[Limsgp]

precious feelings by disagreeing.

Text crop out to keep the post neat and focus on main item.

Disagreeing and insulting others is 2 different things. "Are you a dog?" is not a very civil way of putting across the message either. Especially in heated arguments. You'll only attract a similar treatment.

Disagreeing a topic and unwarranted accusation of others of "unsound logic", is 2 different things.

Don't twist the facts.

My PoV is that disagreeing is fine, as each is entitled to their own opinions.

You "disagree" that cats is more nuisance than dogs is ok. Nothing wrong. You put examples of dogs executing some stunts. Ok too, if it supports your argument. I have no issue with your arguments of dogs = cats when causing nuisance in public areas, ground floor. I don't counter your comments on this aspects.

But when others relate their encounters of cats stealing food in high rise HDB flats, you dismissed it as myth and issued insulting or ridiculing remarks w/o verifying whether or not the cats is really capable of doing it.

You assumed that "if the cats can do it so can the dog" blindly. look at the various cats videos posts, can a dog really capable of doing all that?? be objective and reasonable.

I replied becoz your account of "others unable to accept disagreements" is WRONG. it is never about disagreements, it is about unwarranted insults and accusations. Please get this straight.

 

[Limsgp]

If tigers were meant to fly, they would be born with wings. ;p

Saw that article.. that provided the inspiration of using tiger....

 

[allenleonhart]

You see? Say it's water under bridge but when other hit the nail on the spot and somehow they cannot "move on" and let it pass. And the only comments available is that the other party is 12yo kids or something like that. No substantial subject material but only degrading remarks.

Same patterns everywhere.. short of throwing insults in a discussion.. what else is he capable of? Wonder who is acting like 12yo kid.. :bsmilie: Anyway, I guess I have already made my point. Probably will just try to let it pass unless something new pop up that warrant any attention..

well. i have to put in a fair word here. as far as concerned with regards to the whole issue, the person who raised the argument on cats> dogs was you initially. burden of proof falls onto you, where u have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that cats are more agile, steals food more, makes more noise than dogs.

perhaps its your personal experience with cats that may have led to your perspective, that i could accept. yet you have to prove your point to us, which i felt wasn't strong. the only real form of statistics you have raised would be the one on 10k complaints, yet you cant draw a sole comparison with that. prejudice often comes in play and as such i understand how you may feel. but pls be aware that what you feel may not always be the case. night86mare doesnt have to even lift a finger if he finds ur evidence lacking.

as for nightmare, often you are direct:bsmilie: too direct, as from my previous clashes with u with regards to the education system and principals. may sometimes come across as dominating. as far for the logic, i have to say its clear as day. i understand that you often wish to get your message across in the most direct manner, but may come across as dominating.

so now both bros, take a chill pill. dun need to continue already. relax a bit and let this pass. we are here to learn more about photography, and not fighting with keyboards. i have learnt much from both of you and i dun wish to see anyone kenna dereg due to small matters such as this. it would mean we have lost 2 outstanding members to learn from.

hope this helps.

ps: thought might wanna add this. its actually closely based on the US court system, where burden of proof falls on the prosecutor aka the person accusing. defense attorney need not raise any objections or counter arguments if he feels that prosecutor cant prove his case beyond reasonable doubt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof#Beyond_reasonable_doubt

 

[Limsgp]

Look at issue, be fair and no personnal attack!

对事不对人

That is what I'm advocating too..

When I post, I ask myself, did I cross that line.

I try not too..

But then, if I encountered such an attack.. I admit that I may not restrain myself from "礼尚往来”, to serve others their own medicine in the replies.

 

[Yappy]

That is what I'm advocating too..

When I post, I ask myself, did I cross that line.

I try not too..

But then, if I encountered such an attack.. I admit that I may not restrain myself from "礼尚往来”, to serve others their own medicine in the replies.

Ha ha ... can get warning when you cross the line! :bsmilie::bsmilie::bsmilie:

 

[Deadpoet]

Why is there always a need to win and agguement?

Do we have to always have the last word?

Influencing people is not winning an arguement, it is much more complicated than that.

Anyway, back to the first half of this question, does it really matter to win all arguements?

 

[Limsgp]

well. i have to put in a fair word here. as far as concerned with regards to the whole issue, the person who raised the argument on cats> dogs was you initially. burden of proof falls onto you, where u have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that cats are more agile, steals food more, makes more noise than dogs.

perhaps its your personal experience with cats that may have led to your perspective, that i could accept. yet you have to prove your point to us, which i felt wasn't strong. the only real form of statistics you have raised would be the one on 10k complaints, yet you cant draw a sole comparison with that. prejudice often comes in play and as such i understand how you may feel. but pls be aware that what you feel may not always be the case.

1. I didn't say cats make more noise than dogs. (just clarifying)

2. I mentioned cats have the ability to steal food, in situations that is unlikely for dogs (dogs part is implied).
I put up video links to display the agility of cats, and what the cats capable of.

If you say it is not "beyond reasonable doubt" that cats are more agile than dogs, and that cats are capable of what dogs are not capable of, despite the evidences, it's fine. I have no issue with that.

3. I suggest that cats are more nuisance than dogs in initial post. Later, I put up the link showing the stats of cats complaint in SG context. A google search shows no similar stats results for dogs. I infer from there that Cats is of more problem than dogs in HDB estates.

If you say that it is not a "strong" supporting point. that is fine. No issue with that. These article for for pple to see and judge themselves. You can raise your opinions, comments, and I may or may not counter or further extend my arguments.

The important thing is, it is never about winning the argument. It is just presentation of opinion and fact to support one's argument only.

4. I presented unpleasant encounters of cats stealing food. You don't believe, ok. You request more evidence than words, fine. I may not may not provide more evidences to make it more convincing, depending on whether I want to convince you.
You can say it is isolate incident, not applicable to general sense. that is fair too.

But, If you accusing me of telling "stories", that is not right. It is akin to accusing of someone telling lies, a defamation of one's character.

Finally, there is no need to issue offending insults/accusations in a discussion. I feel. Unless provoked in such said fashion.