kit lens is fine,
if the tutor tell you must get this lens or that lens,
or spend lengthy time telling the students what band of lenses are good and nice,
I'm sure you have enrolled a wrong course.
Where can i take the photography course
- Thread starter XiaoPang10
- Start date
if the tutor tell you must get this lens or that lens,
or spend lengthy time telling the students what band of lenses are good and nice,
I'm sure you have enrolled a wrong course.
Hi,
Just saw this today.
Take a look at this site:
http://www.johnarifin.com/
I've attended courses here. They're good and worth your money.
hi,
u may wanna try photographic society of Singapore. they have several photography courses for different levels at very reasonable rates. i'm also a member of that club. soo hav kinna tested the club out and find it its pretty good and value for money. i understand some newbies a skeptical about joining some 'unknown' courses at rented places, but i can tell u, some of these 'unknown' courses are conducted by professionals. in fact there r lots of them. but for a start... if u r conservative just like me lol, u may try the following club.
the url is http://www.pss1950.org/
any enquires, u can pm me directly.
hope this helps, cheers.
u may wanna try photographic society of Singapore. they have several photography courses for different levels at very reasonable rates. i'm also a member of that club. soo hav kinna tested the club out and find it its pretty good and value for money. i understand some newbies a skeptical about joining some 'unknown' courses at rented places, but i can tell u, some of these 'unknown' courses are conducted by professionals. in fact there r lots of them. but for a start... if u r conservative just like me lol, u may try the following club.
the url is http://www.pss1950.org/
any enquires, u can pm me directly.
hope this helps, cheers.
My gf enrolled me in one of his basic courses without my knowledge as a surprise.
Back then I just started of with my lx3 but i was already reading up alot off the internet about aperture, shutter, iso and all the basics of photography.
It was a 3 days course, after the first day itself i already felt that 90% of what he was teaching i already knew so i approached him after the lesson and told him about it.
I was not being arrogant but told him politely that my gf did not know that i'm already proficient with the basics.
I know it's not his fault that i'm enrolled for the wrong course so I offered to pay him for the 1 day i've attended and be transferred to one of his more intermediate courses. His response was that there are alot of seasoned photographers who think they know alot but after attending the basic course they found out that there's still alot they don't know so i should just stick with the course.
The course was conducted in his house and so his wife was there. I was explaining to them that I'll will be more beneficial for me and there will be more to lean in the advance course. The wife took a look at the small lx3 i was holding and said "how can you know all the basics, you are using just a compact camera!".
I was boiling inside but remained calm and replied her, "I do not think that my knowledge of photography should be judged by the kind of camera that i'm using" and went on to show her my facebook account on their laptop.
it contained image of a skateboarder doing a kickflip frozen in action at 1/2000s, panning of drifting cars, night landscape shots with tripod at 30sec, shallow DOF shots at F2, macro shots and a variety of other shots all taken with the lx3. I'm not saying they're fantastic, I'm just trying to prove to them that i already know the basic and i shouldn't be judged based on the size of my camera
After seeing my pictures, his wife kept quiet about my lx3. Mr Arifin kept silent for a few seconds and told me, ok, next week during the course he'll arrange for something extra for me.
The following week we were supposed to be shooting in botanic gardens for around 4 hours. During the 4 hours, he taught the class how to achieve bokeh, how to pan a person running, how to shoot slow shutter and get the flowy water effect, how to meter, how to get the right exposure. near the end of the lesson, he gave the class some free time and
gave me a 20mins 1-1 lesson on metering, how to read the histogram and interpret midtones, shadows and highlights.
Sadly that was the only useful 15 mins for me on that day.
Throughout the whole course I did not make things difficult for him and only confronted him after the lesson when the other students have already left. I would not have minded so much if my gf had not paid for the course and hoped i'll learn something out of it. I told him and his wife exactly how i felt. His wife even suggested that in order to make my gf happy I should tell her that I've learnt alot from the course so that she won't feel she has wasted her money.
All I asked for was to be transferred to a more intermediate where i can truly learn something, apart from denying the request, she even had the cheek to suggest i lie to my gf about it. i told here there and then that although I want to make my gf happy, i'm not going to lie to her.
I cannot imagine how much money they can lose out on seeing that the classroom was actually conducted in his home and the only materials given out were a few pieces of notes.
As a businessman, yes, it doesn't make economic sense for him to let me transfer, but as a person passionate about photography, this is the way he wishes to treat another person sharing the same passion - by using money as a measurement.
I guess it's business first, teaching second.
Sorry to hear of your bad experience. I do agree that the claimed comments that came from the wife were uncalled for. But seriously he was not obligated to move you to another class. You have to see it from his point of view too. By you attending his beginning session, you already took up one spot, which could have gone to another person. If he lets you do it, he might be afraid that many others start doing it. It will be logistical hell.
Although he could have done it in goodwill, you also cannot fault him for not wanting to do so. In the end, it was your gf who made the mistake of not consulting with you before signing up.
And IMHO being passionate about photography and sharing photography, doesn't mean he has to give up his living too.
hi Daredevil, i understand exactly what you're saying, that he was not obliged to transfer me to another course.
My gf actually spoken to him on which course she should sign me up for and he was the one who recommeded that I go for the beginner course.
Yes, she did not consult me first, as it was meant to be a surprise.
Yes, ultimately she made the decision on the beignnner course, i understand that as well.
I've thought of the possibility of other's follwing suit that was why i only spoke to him after all the other students have left, to keep everything private.
I know i've taken up a spot which could have gone to another person, that was why i offered to compensate a little by paying for the 1 out of 3 days that i have attended.
I'm not looking for a full compensation here, just a win win situation where i'll pay the full amount for the advance course + the 1 day beginner course that i've attended.
The part about "giving up his living" is a little exaggerated in my opinion.
He lives in an apartment in orchard and for that particular course he earned a net profit of 3k plus.
Venue is his residence so no rental for space was incurred.
Cost of agreeing to my transfer was about $200 loss, minus the fact that I was willing to pay the full course fee for an imtermediate course.
I'm not asking him to incur a major loss or give up his living, but to understand that i'm learning almost next to nothing in the basic course and see beyond that $200 profit.
The whole course for me was like watching a movie for the second time.
I know some people who have watched Titanic 7 times, but the only time I paid to watch a movice twice in the cinema, I almost fell alseep.
Am I upset with him as a businessman? No. it doesn't make economic sense to agree to a transfer
Am I upset with him as a fellow human being passionate about photography. Yes, esp when he could see so clearly that i was almost learning nothing from the course.
The reason why i'm publishing all this is cause i do not wish someone who's passionate about photograhy to have to go through the same situation as me.
That was the same thing I told him on the last day of the course.
My gf actually spoken to him on which course she should sign me up for and he was the one who recommeded that I go for the beginner course.
Yes, she did not consult me first, as it was meant to be a surprise.
Yes, ultimately she made the decision on the beignnner course, i understand that as well.
I've thought of the possibility of other's follwing suit that was why i only spoke to him after all the other students have left, to keep everything private.
I know i've taken up a spot which could have gone to another person, that was why i offered to compensate a little by paying for the 1 out of 3 days that i have attended.
I'm not looking for a full compensation here, just a win win situation where i'll pay the full amount for the advance course + the 1 day beginner course that i've attended.
The part about "giving up his living" is a little exaggerated in my opinion.
He lives in an apartment in orchard and for that particular course he earned a net profit of 3k plus.
Venue is his residence so no rental for space was incurred.
Cost of agreeing to my transfer was about $200 loss, minus the fact that I was willing to pay the full course fee for an imtermediate course.
I'm not asking him to incur a major loss or give up his living, but to understand that i'm learning almost next to nothing in the basic course and see beyond that $200 profit.
The whole course for me was like watching a movie for the second time.
I know some people who have watched Titanic 7 times, but the only time I paid to watch a movice twice in the cinema, I almost fell alseep.
Am I upset with him as a businessman? No. it doesn't make economic sense to agree to a transfer
Am I upset with him as a fellow human being passionate about photography. Yes, esp when he could see so clearly that i was almost learning nothing from the course.
The reason why i'm publishing all this is cause i do not wish someone who's passionate about photograhy to have to go through the same situation as me.
That was the same thing I told him on the last day of the course.
At the end of the day. no matter how upset you may be, the fact remains that he is not obliged to transfer you. Like I said before, he could have done it, lose a little profit while gaining a little goodwill. But he is definitely not wrong in not agreeing to do so either. It was his call. Personally, if you were attending my course, I would have let you transfer in light of this situation but that is me. He is not a bad person by not agreeing to do so.
You may feel you have wasted your time, but it was a mistake on your gf's part as she was the actual one enrolling you into the course. My take is, rather than seeing the negativity in this, try to see the positives. that 15mins of info oh how to read shadows, midtones and highlights, is extremely useful and worth its weight in gold. My personal standpoint is if I just walk away from a book or course with just one good thing learned, it would already be worth my time and money.
And seriously, I think neither his personal net worth, nor his cost structure, nor his profit margin matters here. These things has nothing to do with you whatsoever. Something being fair or not has nothing to do with how much he makes. Passion or not, this is a business not a charity. You may think it is fair of you to ask for 2/3 refund of the course fee. Personally I think it is not fair. I would have let you transfer, but will only refund only 50% or less. It is all about opportunity costs my friend.
Sometimes you have to put yourself in his shoes as well. Let's say you are booked to shoot an AD wedding for 10 hours, from morning to night. The bride's brother, who is a very good photographer, came with full gear after the first 3 hours. The couple then tell you that you are no longer needed as their photographer relative is taking over for free, and will be using their wedding for portfolio. They ask you for the photos taken so far in full hi-res format, and wants 2/3 of the money back for the time you have not shot yet. Will you be happy to do it? honestly? It is for the passion of photography too, for someone wanting the experience to shoot a full wedding.
Sometimes, it is not just "us" that matters. We need to think if it is fair to others as well.
And also, the best way to avoid going through the same situation as you, is to know what class you are actually enrolling into.
I feel that your initial statement of "I had a bad experience with him", is extremely unfair to John Arifin. Why? Simply because he did no wrong. And you faulted him for something he did not do that your own gf did in error. Simply put, in raw direct language, you blamed him for something your gf did wrong.
So there. I openly stated my standpoint on this issue.
And do note that I do not know Mr John Arifin personally and have never heard of him before reading this thread. I am not affiliated to him in any way.
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you can get first hand information by checking out their site.
The Photographic Society of Singapore
At the end of the day. no matter how upset you may be, the fact remains that he is not obliged to transfer you. Like I said before, he could have done it, lose a little profit while gaining a little goodwill. But he is definitely not wrong in not agreeing to do so either. It was his call. Personally, if you were attending my course, I would have let you transfer in light of this situation but that is me. He is not a bad person by not agreeing to do so.
Like i've said before, i know he's not obliged to tranfer me, i have never mentioned that he was in the wrong, nor have i said that he was a bad person
You may feel you have wasted your time, but it was a mistake on your gf's part as she was the actual one enrolling you into the course. My take is, rather than seeing the negativity in this, try to see the positives. that 15mins of info oh how to read shadows, midtones and highlights, is extremely useful and worth its weight in gold. My personal standpoint is if I just walk away from a book or course with just one good thing learned, it would already be worth my time and money.
once again, yes, i have aleady acknowledged in my previous posting that it was my gf's mistake to enrol me for the wrong course. i'm not blaming him for me being enrolled in the wrong course, i'm just shocked that he can continue to have a student in the class with the full knowledge that the student is going away at the end of the course with nothing much learnt. Am i saying he is a bad person? No. I'm sayng that my beliefs and his are different.
And seriously, I think neither his personal net worth, nor his cost structure, nor his profit margin matters here. These things has nothing to do with you whatsoever. Something being fair or not has nothing to do with how much he makes. Passion or not, this is a business not a charity. You may think it is fair of you to ask for 2/3 refund of the course fee. Personally I think it is not fair. I would have let you transfer, but will only refund only 50% or less. It is all about opportunity costs my friend.
yes, all that is not my concern. You mentioned earlier that "being passionate about photography and sharing photography, doesn't mean he has to give up his living too." i'm simply stating the fact that $200 is not going to affect his living, Fullstop.
Yes, you may argue that a 50% refund would be fair and honestly, i would have taken it but was i even given a choice?
With regards to opportunity costs, there is zero other than the $200 lost, the class is still going ahead with or without me as all the other students will still be there.
Sometimes you have to put yourself in his shoes as well. Let's say you are booked to shoot an AD wedding for 10 hours, from morning to night. The bride's brother, who is a very good photographer, came with full gear after the first 3 hours. The couple then tell you that you are no longer needed as their photographer relative is taking over for free, and will be using their wedding for portfolio. They ask you for the photos taken so far in full hi-res format, and wants 2/3 of the money back for the time you have not shot yet. Will you be happy to do it? honestly? It is for the passion of photography too, for someone wanting the experience to shoot a full wedding.
Honestly, if they had told me before hand about the arrangement and offered to pay for the 3 hours of service i provided and at the same time arrange for a photoshoot of some sort with the money they have already paid, i'll be ok. Please do note in my case, i was willing to pay for the advance class, i'm not just asking for a refund for the course
Sometimes, it is not just "us" that matters. We need to think if it is fair to others as well
I know it's not only about me and i want to be fair to him as well cos ultimately he still has to make money out of it, but there was no room for any discussion of any sort, no mention of tranfer, no mention of a discount for the advance course, no mention of anything other than i should just live with the fact that my gf enrolled me in the wrong course. i'm not sure how you look at it, but is this fair to me?
Like i've said before, i know he's not obliged to tranfer me, i have never mentioned that he was in the wrong, nor have i said that he was a bad person
You may feel you have wasted your time, but it was a mistake on your gf's part as she was the actual one enrolling you into the course. My take is, rather than seeing the negativity in this, try to see the positives. that 15mins of info oh how to read shadows, midtones and highlights, is extremely useful and worth its weight in gold. My personal standpoint is if I just walk away from a book or course with just one good thing learned, it would already be worth my time and money.
once again, yes, i have aleady acknowledged in my previous posting that it was my gf's mistake to enrol me for the wrong course. i'm not blaming him for me being enrolled in the wrong course, i'm just shocked that he can continue to have a student in the class with the full knowledge that the student is going away at the end of the course with nothing much learnt. Am i saying he is a bad person? No. I'm sayng that my beliefs and his are different.
And seriously, I think neither his personal net worth, nor his cost structure, nor his profit margin matters here. These things has nothing to do with you whatsoever. Something being fair or not has nothing to do with how much he makes. Passion or not, this is a business not a charity. You may think it is fair of you to ask for 2/3 refund of the course fee. Personally I think it is not fair. I would have let you transfer, but will only refund only 50% or less. It is all about opportunity costs my friend.
yes, all that is not my concern. You mentioned earlier that "being passionate about photography and sharing photography, doesn't mean he has to give up his living too." i'm simply stating the fact that $200 is not going to affect his living, Fullstop.
Yes, you may argue that a 50% refund would be fair and honestly, i would have taken it but was i even given a choice?
With regards to opportunity costs, there is zero other than the $200 lost, the class is still going ahead with or without me as all the other students will still be there.
Sometimes you have to put yourself in his shoes as well. Let's say you are booked to shoot an AD wedding for 10 hours, from morning to night. The bride's brother, who is a very good photographer, came with full gear after the first 3 hours. The couple then tell you that you are no longer needed as their photographer relative is taking over for free, and will be using their wedding for portfolio. They ask you for the photos taken so far in full hi-res format, and wants 2/3 of the money back for the time you have not shot yet. Will you be happy to do it? honestly? It is for the passion of photography too, for someone wanting the experience to shoot a full wedding.
Honestly, if they had told me before hand about the arrangement and offered to pay for the 3 hours of service i provided and at the same time arrange for a photoshoot of some sort with the money they have already paid, i'll be ok. Please do note in my case, i was willing to pay for the advance class, i'm not just asking for a refund for the course
Sometimes, it is not just "us" that matters. We need to think if it is fair to others as well
I know it's not only about me and i want to be fair to him as well cos ultimately he still has to make money out of it, but there was no room for any discussion of any sort, no mention of tranfer, no mention of a discount for the advance course, no mention of anything other than i should just live with the fact that my gf enrolled me in the wrong course. i'm not sure how you look at it, but is this fair to me?
Hi,
As I was the one who mentioned that I learnt my basic photography at JohnArifin,
I feel that I should contribute something to this discussion.
1. It was my son who paid for and signed up the course for me at John Ariffin. I do not know him at all.
2. A little similar to kfchrispy, on and off, I was playing with a China Seagull box camera; a Olympus Pen-F and a Pentax ME Super and numerous P&S cams since 1969 - but never spent any useful time understanding the connection between aperture opening, shutter speed and ISO (if I am not wrong - it used to be called ASA). Picture composition is like Russian to me!!
3. After I retired five years ago and while not doing anything useful except helping my wife to take care of our two grandchildren, I bought a dSLR (a cheap one - Lumix G-1) in November last year and started to take up photography seriously. And I attended John Ariffins intermediate photography course.
4. I find the course very useful because I attended with an open mind - just like a sheet of blank white paper. After the 3 day X 4 hour course, I find that I am ready to hit the road and joined Club Snap. And I have been to many group outings. As an elderly man (I am 65 and have 2 grandchildren), I can tell you it takes courage, determination and thick skin to join Cleonbus (Sec2 boy) group in their outings. During the first outing with Cleonbus, and as I arrived early, everyone thought I was Cleonbus the organiser.:bigeyes: Master Cleon had to stand up and tell everyone that he was the organiser!!:bsmilie:
5. Just like any business deal - whether it is buying something or signing up for some courses, there are those who consider themselves to benefit and those who do not agree.
6. After reading the last few threads, I feel that dd123 if he was not a lawyer or mediator by profession should have been one. Although it does not concern him, he contributed a lot of very wise and learned views.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Cheers, God Bless, Keep shooting!
LEW
As I was the one who mentioned that I learnt my basic photography at JohnArifin,
I feel that I should contribute something to this discussion.
1. It was my son who paid for and signed up the course for me at John Ariffin. I do not know him at all.
2. A little similar to kfchrispy, on and off, I was playing with a China Seagull box camera; a Olympus Pen-F and a Pentax ME Super and numerous P&S cams since 1969 - but never spent any useful time understanding the connection between aperture opening, shutter speed and ISO (if I am not wrong - it used to be called ASA). Picture composition is like Russian to me!!
3. After I retired five years ago and while not doing anything useful except helping my wife to take care of our two grandchildren, I bought a dSLR (a cheap one - Lumix G-1) in November last year and started to take up photography seriously. And I attended John Ariffins intermediate photography course.
4. I find the course very useful because I attended with an open mind - just like a sheet of blank white paper. After the 3 day X 4 hour course, I find that I am ready to hit the road and joined Club Snap. And I have been to many group outings. As an elderly man (I am 65 and have 2 grandchildren), I can tell you it takes courage, determination and thick skin to join Cleonbus (Sec2 boy) group in their outings. During the first outing with Cleonbus, and as I arrived early, everyone thought I was Cleonbus the organiser.:bigeyes: Master Cleon had to stand up and tell everyone that he was the organiser!!:bsmilie:
5. Just like any business deal - whether it is buying something or signing up for some courses, there are those who consider themselves to benefit and those who do not agree.
6. After reading the last few threads, I feel that dd123 if he was not a lawyer or mediator by profession should have been one. Although it does not concern him, he contributed a lot of very wise and learned views.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Cheers, God Bless, Keep shooting!
LEW
Yes, know the class you are going for before u enrol to avoid the mess.
and no i don't think my comment "I had a bad experience with him" is unfair. if you read my posting correctly, i am not blaming him for the mistake that my gf made.
I am not slandering him, or maligning him or any sort? No.
I am just stating everything that happened to me during the course.
Am i frustrated at that time, definitely.
Did i have a bad experience with him, yes i did.
Have i said he's a lousy instructor and a bad person? No i did not.
Everyone is entiled to his or her opinion, if you choose to feel that it is unfair to him that i write down my personal encounter, i respect your views as well.
I am glad we are on the same page on this.
Beliefs are different. And yes, there is nothing wrong to have a student in the midst who already knows everything. He is rendering a service which your gf paid for. It is not in his place to decide if you are finally learning it or not. That was your responsibility. It was also your responsibility (or your gf's) to get enrolled in the right class.
You just think of this one case amounting $200. What if this happens to 5 people in the class? 10 people? It will definitely affect his living. This is all about setting precedence. Even if you try to make it low key by waiting till everyone's gone, he did no wrong by not agreeing. It is just him trying to be fair to everyone.
You should also look up online what "opportunity costs" means. Yes, it is that $200 lost. For the greater good, will you give me $200 if I ask you to? I'm serious dude, I will donate it on your behalf. You may think $200 is little money, but some people, who worked from the bottom up, value every cent. Every successful businessman will tell you that, it is in the dime and cents that you build up your business.
And did you tell John beforehand about trying out the class for 1 day first to see how it goes? We all expect people to tell us before hand so we can make plans properly. Not after the fact. I am very sure if the situation is as stated by me, you will be very upset as well. Ok, so what if the couple tell you can leave after 3 hours, and ask you to go back to shoot the birth of their child. Same thing, you will be upset as well, and you will not go back and shoot anything for them.
It is very fair to you and your gf. A commitment is made, a contract signed, an agreement entered. It is binding. If that error is on your part (or on the part of your party), no one needs to pay for that mistake on your behalf. I'll say tough luck. You can hope that the other party will let you off on it, but you have no right to expect or demand for it. There is no room for discussion unless the other party allows it.
It is the same for any classes or university programs you sign up and pay for. After you pay school fees for 1 semester, and attended the first day. Can you walk out, and approach Uni admin as ask for the remainder of your money back, just because you think you already know the stuff?
Dude, I have been very patient with you, but you just cannot see beyond "ME". It is the same whether you pay for a concert ticket, or a course with any school or university, or commercial training, seminar. It is all the same. Just because John Arifin held his course in his home, does not mean you can walk all over him and demand money back. Sorry dude. No can do. :nono: I am definitely not with you on this one.
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What I said was: that first post you posted in this thread is very unfair to him (specifically post #26). If I did not ask what happened, many readers would have walked away with very wrong impressions.
And seriously, it took you a while to see and reply my query. But I am grateful for your reply. Now it clears it up perfectly for me. There is nothing wrong with John Arifin and his courses. And I am impressed by the testimonials folks has been posting about him.
Thanks for that. :thumbsup:
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