Radiation from Router

[Kermitfm]

We are talking about different types of radiation here (re: Giorgio's post). Ionising radiation (x-rays, CRTs etc) are more harmful as it is established that they cause cell damage and mutation which may lead to cancers. Wireless access points, handphones and microwave ovens emits electromagnetic radiation (RF - radio frequency) which are non-ionising radiation. Microwave ovens emits high power - 600W to > 1KW for it to work. For comparison, microwave transmitters used for long distant communication emits between 5 to 50W. The emmission from household and consumer portable devices is much,much less so should be 'safe'.

However the jury is still out on the health impact due to long term exposure to low level RF radiation. The FCC guidelines which stipulates limits to the RF emission power is to prevent interference between devices and is not health related. Personally, I prefer to to be safe than sorry. I use handsfree headset as much as possible and switch off wireless routers when not needed (save a few cents also).

 

[LittleWolf]

We are talking about different types of radiation here (re: Giorgio's post). Ionising radiation (x-rays, CRTs etc) are more harmful

You cannot generalise like that, as it depends, among other things, on the dose.

I'm nowhere claiming that radio devices are evil killing machines, but one cannot claim they are completely harmless either. It always depends on a lot of parameters.

as it is established that they cause cell damage and mutation which may lead to cancers.

For that matter, it is equally established that you can generate carcinogens by frying/roasting or even microwaving food. And getting exposed to sunlight causes some nasty photochemistry that has also mutagenic potential.

The FCC guidelines which stipulates limits to the RF emission power is to prevent interference between devices and is not health related.

I'm not sure why you bring the FCC in but you are wrong. The FCC has been stipulating RF safety requirements for quite some time. In fact, even entry-level FCC licensed amateurs (and amateurs in other legislations too) have to assess their installations and determine controlled access zones based on RF exposure limits. Incidentally, it is no problem whatsoever to exceed safe limits even with a low-power transmitter.

 

[CYRN]

Just got the wireless N Linksys router.

Wonder if anyone sitting near the router for a few hours would get too much radiation.

The signal strength seems to be very strong. Using my notebook, I could detect the signal even 2 door away and still get 4bars out of 5bars.

Just as a precaution, I place it at least 3metres away from anyone.

In the first place, you should have gotten a a/b/g router instead....

the N standard defines increased range and speed. Of course you'll get 4 bars even when you are further away.

*edit* you should be more concerned about the one transmitting at your lap. :devil:

 

[Giorgio]

You cannot generalise like that, as it depends, among other things, on the dose.

I'm nowhere claiming that radio devices are evil killing machines, but one cannot claim they are completely harmless either. It always depends on a lot of parameters.



For that matter, it is equally established that you can generate carcinogens by frying/roasting or even microwaving food. And getting exposed to sunlight causes some nasty photochemistry that has also mutagenic potential.



I'm not sure why you bring the FCC in but you are wrong. The FCC has been stipulating RF safety requirements for quite some time. In fact, even entry-level FCC licensed amateurs (and amateurs in other legislations too) have to assess their installations and determine controlled access zones based on RF exposure limits. Incidentally, it is no problem whatsoever to exceed safe limits even with a low-power transmitter.

I don't know why are you arguing here.I'm telling you,and so are the others too,that radiation is a very BIG AND DANGEROUS word to many GENERAL PEOPLE.They think that radiation is big nuclear bomb kind of stuff that cause cancer.
While radiowave is a radiation,so is your laptop screen and the microwave that cooks your food.
There are many kinds of radiation in the electromagnetic specrum.It ranges from your 'harmless' microwave to your gammarays.
Microwave can be harmful and cause cancer scienctifically but that is a very idealised scenario.Many things can cause cancer too and even a higher chance.

You don't believe why i say when many people see radiation is a big word?The truth is they are ignorant.Nope,don't argue,it's the truth.
I've told you that everything around us,the table,grass outside yourwindow,every god dam thing and not just carbon-12 alone.
carbon-12 is merely a single radioisotope out of the many radioisope.

And since everything decay,everything around your is decaying every second and we call it half life.
Half life is the time taken for half the atom in a sample to decay and in this case,the atom refers to anything around us since everything around us is made of atoms.
Now whenever anything decay interms of nuclear physic,they emit radiation.
Thus,everything is emitting radiation every second.
Maybe the table made out of wood you bought has a half-life of 100 years.Nope,the time it starts decaying doesn't commerence at the time you bought it.It starts at the time this tree was grew,planted,alive.So maybe,tmr is it's 100years.
You are getting too hype on on the sterotypical and ignorant views of radiation.Just because some sciencetist or some article says radiowave causes cancer,you freak out.
It's suppose to read in the scientific context,theorectically under all favourable conditions for cancer to occur.
They might say exposure to radiowave increases chances of getting cancer by 10000 times..haha...well yea it will.Mathematically correct only.
People are just too focused on the cause of cancer due to radiation.They think that radiation is the main culprit and once u mention this name,every other cause of cancer fade into the bg.They seem to forget certain food causes cancer too.Funny but we see people eating it too,like BBQ and deep fried food.

Now,do you take airplane?The exposure to UV rays on the plan atop the high altitude is few hundred times higher than when you are on the surface of the earth.
Or simply put,the higher you climb or the higher you live on the HDB,the more exposed you are to UV radiation and boy UV rays have many times higher electron volt as compared to radiowaves.
Are you going to avoid the sun?For a start,maybe try living underground,the earth is thick enough to prevent penetration of the gamma rays since gamma rays can only be stop by thick concrete or lead.
Many things are more dangerous and require more attention like being careful when crossing the road,not drink driving,have better road sense etc etc.
Yet we don't see people being careful with those but here they are trying to freak out because of a radiation when stuff like what i mention can end one's life immediately.
I'm a material science student and have used UV-spec and Fourier transform irfrared before.These instrument utilised UV rays and IR to detect quality and quantities of certain compoud in a sample and these instrument is the size of a small mini hi fi and lies directly infront of me and we use it hands on.Is anyone freaking out?

 

[ArchRival]

There is not a single mechanism for mutations. RF exposure can also result in mutations. The most direct effect of RF is heating of tissue, which can knock the biochemistry out of its normal regime, which can potentially lead to mutations as well.

:bsmilie::bsmilie:
Very good, so your mechanism is radio waves -> heat tissue -> screw up biochemistry -> cause mutations

So please to elaborate what is the typical rise in human tissue temperature when exposed to hp radio waves?

 

[sammy888]

I don't know why are you arguing here.I'm telling you,and so are the others too,that radiation is a very BIG AND DANGEROUS word to many GENERAL PEOPLE.They think that radiation is big nuclear bomb kind of stuff that cause cancer.
While radiowave is a radiation,so is your laptop screen and the microwave that cooks your food.
There are many kinds of radiation in the electromagnetic specrum.It ranges from your 'harmless' microwave to your gammarays.
Microwave can be harmful and cause cancer scienctifically but that is a very idealised scenario.Many things can cause cancer too and even a higher chance.

You don't believe why i say when many people see radiation is a big word?The truth is they are ignorant.Nope,don't argue,it's the truth.
I've told you that everything around us,the table,grass outside yourwindow,every god dam thing and not just carbon-12 alone.
carbon-12 is merely a single radioisotope out of the many radioisope.

And since everything decay,everything around your is decaying every second and we call it half life.
Half life is the time taken for half the atom in a sample to decay and in this case,the atom refers to anything around us since everything around us is made of atoms.
Now whenever anything decay interms of nuclear physic,they emit radiation.
Thus,everything is emitting radiation every second.
Maybe the table made out of wood you bought has a half-life of 100 years.Nope,the time it starts decaying doesn't commerence at the time you bought it.It starts at the time this tree was grew,planted,alive.So maybe,tmr is it's 100years.
You are getting too hype on on the sterotypical and ignorant views of radiation.Just because some sciencetist or some article says radiowave causes cancer,you freak out.
It's suppose to read in the scientific context,theorectically under all favourable conditions for cancer to occur.
They might say exposure to radiowave increases chances of getting cancer by 10000 times..haha...well yea it will.Mathematically correct only.
People are just too focused on the cause of cancer due to radiation.They think that radiation is the main culprit and once u mention this name,every other cause of cancer fade into the bg.They seem to forget certain food causes cancer too.Funny but we see people eating it too,like BBQ and deep fried food.

Now,do you take airplane?The exposure to UV rays on the plan atop the high altitude is few hundred times higher than when you are on the surface of the earth.
Or simply put,the higher you climb or the higher you live on the HDB,the more exposed you are to UV radiation and boy UV rays have many times higher electron volt as compared to radiowaves.
Are you going to avoid the sun?For a start,maybe try living underground,the earth is thick enough to prevent penetration of the gamma rays since gamma rays can only be stop by thick concrete or lead.
Many things are more dangerous and require more attention like being careful when crossing the road,not drink driving,have better road sense etc etc.
Yet we don't see people being careful with those but here they are trying to freak out because of a radiation when stuff like what i mention can end one's life immediately.
I'm a material science student and have used UV-spec and Fourier transform irfrared before.These instrument utilised UV rays and IR to detect quality and quantities of certain compoud in a sample and these instrument is the size of a small mini hi fi and lies directly infront of me and we use it hands on.Is anyone freaking out?

THANK YOU > THANK YOU > THANK YOU. you put that together better then I ever could. :thumbsup:

 

[Giorgio]

:bsmilie::bsmilie:
Very good, so your mechanism is radio waves -> heat tissue -> screw up biochemistry -> cause mutations

So please to elaborate what is the typical rise in human tissue temperature when exposed to hp radio waves?

Whoever said that cancer is due to heating of tissue?
I'm not a bio person.My bio knowledge has been returned to the teachers but vaguely i tell.
Tissues are produce by codes in the DNA.
Different tissues have different DNA buildup.Meaning to build/create that particular tissue,there has to be a particular DNA sequence.
In the presence of radiation,the radiation will screw the DNA blueprint and when the blueprint of a particular tissues goes wrong,wrong cells are being produce.In this context,the wrong cell is being known as abnormal cells and what is cancer?Simply abnormal cells.


Haha and ironical,the cause of cancer by radiation is also being treated by radiation itself.
Boron-10 has 2 isotopes,boron-10 and boron-11
When boron-10 enters the body,it 'attached' with thermal neutrons to form boron-11 which is high unstable.boron-11 will then 'explode',causing alpha particle to be release and this alpha partile is VERY IONISING.It kills both healthy and cancerous cells.

 

[deancool335]

Wow really interesting stuff here. I think i'll learn more from this topic then in school ;p.

 

[LittleWolf]

I don't know why are you arguing here.

I'm trying to avoid the spread of misinformation, e.g. that the FCC would not stipulate RF safety (demonstratably wrong, see e.g. OET bulletin no. 65), and the fallacy "ionising radiaton==bad, nonionising radiation==harmless". It is not that simple.

As a materials science student you should be able to understand that most things are too complex to fit into a simplistic black-or-white world view. (And, btw, you also seriously need to revise your flawed concept of "half-time".)

You are getting too hype on on the sterotypical and ignorant views of radiation

I don't think so. In all modesty, I can claim to have a fairly good understanding of electromagnetic radiation, and I don't believe I'm "getting too hype" (or its English equivalent) on anything. Maybe your problem is that you read things into my words that I never wrote?

 

[Giorgio]

I'm trying to avoid the spread of misinformation, e.g. that the FCC would not stipulate RF safety (demonstratably wrong, see e.g. OET bulletin no. 65), and the fallacy "ionising radiaton==bad, nonionising radiation==harmless". It is not that simple.

As a materials science student you should be able to understand that most things are too complex to fit into a simplistic black-or-white world view. (And, btw, you also seriously need to revise your flawed concept of "half-time".)



I don't think so. In all modesty, I can claim to have a fairly good understanding of electromagnetic radiation, and I don't believe I'm "getting too hype" (or its English equivalent) on anything. Maybe your problem is that you read things into my words that I never wrote?

Nope.There's nothing wrong with what i mentioned about half-life.[It's half-life btw]
All radioactive materials have half life and since almost all life on earth is carbon base,Carbon-12,everything is radioactive and known as background radiations
By the same measure,our body contains potassium and so,we are a source of radiation as well and we like other living things contribute to background ionizing radiation.
When I say people are all too hype over EMW is because,they seem to think the worst of EMW.RF is harmful to an extend but the fact that people are crying cries
that EMW exposure will give them cancer is really disbelieving.
AS i said,it can cause cancer but those are just theorectical figures!
Figures that will come true under the perfect ideal control scenarios.
Eg. placing you in a vacum tube free from all outside influencing factors and subjecting you to RF waves 24/7.
But in real life,out hp switches on and off and other factors like diet take role in causing cancer too.

I don't care what is FCC nor do i know what it is.It's not even me who brought up that point.

 

[CYRN]

mind if I kpo a little more...

I'm not sure of the whole thing myself... but here's my own thoughts....

If it's absolutely harmless, why then does the industry consider it a hazard to be near a transmitter such a navigation radar? Or put it to those who says it's harmless, would you even want to try to stand infront of a transmitting radar?

I think what's debatable isn't the potential of harm but rather the dosage vis-a-vis "safe level"... IIRC something like rad/kg of body mass or something like that... I believe the main debate is regarding the level of ssafe dosage.

that being said... those wi-fi and cell phones are considered very low-powered, thus (I think this is what Giorgio is trying to point to) is below the "safe-level" and people are just being overly excited... just because 10Kg of TNT can cause some destruction, it dosen't mean that your matchstick is a bomb.

 

[kiwitan]

why worry about this and worry about that... place too much stress on yourself and maybe even shorten your lifespan by a few years.

Just be happy .

Just got the wireless N Linksys router.

Wonder if anyone sitting near the router for a few hours would get too much radiation.

The signal strength seems to be very strong. Using my notebook, I could detect the signal even 2 door away and still get 4bars out of 5bars.

Just as a precaution, I place it at least 3metres away from anyone.

 

[Pablo]

I think the radiation from this thread is frying my brain :bsmilie:

 

[CYRN]

I think the radiation from this thread is frying my brain :bsmilie:

:faint::faint::faint:

 

[Quest]

I think the radiation from this thread is frying my brain :bsmilie:

to avoid frying your brain, dont go to near the monitor - unless, u r trying to promote a new delicacy.kekeke.

 

[ArchRival]

Whoever said that cancer is due to heating of tissue?

:bsmilie::bsmilie:

LittleWolf said that.

"Classical example, from a post above, is a handphone in the car - the RF energy gets largely trapped in the metal chassis, increasing exposure of the driver/passengers. On top of that, the phone will increase its transmission power to stay in contact with the base from which it is shielded by the car."

"There is not a single mechanism for mutations. RF exposure can also result in mutations. The most direct effect of RF is heating of tissue, which can knock the biochemistry out of its normal regime, which can potentially lead to mutations as well."

So i'm interested to know how much of a rise in temp radiation from handphones will cause. Just trying to see if there's any logical reasoning in his statements, or are they just disinformation in the form of vague opinions.

 

[David Kwok]

How a microwave over works is purely based on conversion of RF energy into heat.

Aaaaaa... It's based on resonance.

 

[Giorgio]

You see this is the funny part.

I did not know there is a co-relation between temperature and radiation.However,ther eis a relation between energy and wavelength.
The shorter your wavelength[uv,x-ray and gamma] the more energy it posess and therefore.

We all know that handphone emit EMW in the range of radiowave,300–3000 MHz and at
1 metre – 100 millimetre.
Now do you think it is possible to increase the frequency os this radiowave?Technically it is possible but increasing it would mean higher frequencies and therefore shortening the wavelength,being promoted to higher energy EMW such as infared,visible light and UV.
But that means,the HP would no longer be functioning because it cannot communicate with the base station that relates using radiowave.In short,different frequency.

Microwaves has many emitter that emits IR.Think of it this way.A 'ray' gun that shoots IR to cook food.In the case of micro-oven,it has many 'ray' guns to heat the food.
I believe that he brought this concept over to the hp in the car.The handphone emitting radiowave and causing the radiowave to be trapped inside the car.But ask,how many hp are there in the car?
Furthermore,not 100% of the radiowave emitted are trapped within.There will be some that escape.
UV and gamma rays that enter earth,a percentage is being reflected back into the cosmo.Some are absorbed by particles/compoud in the sky and some absorbed by ozone layer.

And i already did say,mutation is not the result of heating of cells.Mutation/caner is the result of the alteration of DNA blueprint.
Think of DNA as a set of instructions and mRNA[messenger RNA] that reads the DNA.
EMW will cause DNA to be alter and when alter,intstruction changes for the production of tissues[depending on what tissue's blueprint is altered].
mRNA will continue reading the DNA,not the original DNA but the altered one.thus resulting in mutation which is cancer.
Heating of cell may kill cells.If heating of cells if the baseline for mutations,then what happens when we are close to a source of heat?What about fever?

 

[deepashes]

woah.. technical..

my brain gets scrambled faster by reading thru this than by sitting next to my wireless router..

 

[CYRN]

You see this is the funny part.

I did not know there is a co-relation between temperature and radiation.

We all know that handphone emit EMW in the range of radiowave,300–3000 MHz and at
1 metre – 100 millimetre.
Now do you think it is possible to increase the frequency os this radiowave?Technically it is possible but increasing it would mean higher frequencies and therefore shortening the wavelength,being promoted to higher energy EMW such as infared,visible light and UV.
But that means,the HP would no longer be functioning because it cannot communicate with the base station that relates using radiowave.In short,different frequency.

Microwaves has many emitter that emits IR.Think of it this way.A 'ray' gun that shoots IR to cook food.In the case of micro-oven,it has many 'ray' guns to heat the food.
I believe that he brought this concept over to the hp in the car.The handphone emitting radiowave and causing the radiowave to be trapped inside the car.But ask,how many hp are there in the car?
Furthermore,not 100% of the radiowave emitted are trapped within.There will be some that escape.
UV and gamma rays that enter earth,a percentage is being reflected back into the cosmo.Some are absorbed by particles/compoud in the sky and some absorbed by ozone layer.

And i already did say,mutation is not the result of heating of cells.Mutation/caner is the result of the alteration of DNA blueprint.
Think of DNA as a set of instructions and mRNA[messenger RNA] that reads the DNA.
EMW will cause DNA to be alter and when alter,intstruction changes for the production of tissues[depending on what tissue's blueprint is altered].
mRNA will continue reading the DNA,not the original DNA but the altered one.thus resulting in mutation which is cancer.
Heating of cell may kill cells.If heating of cells if the baseline for mutations,then what happens when we are close to a source of heat?What about fever?

woah.. technical..

my brain gets scrambled faster by reading thru this than by sitting next to my wireless router..

wack theory with more theory... cuz Giorgio has gone wack wif wat he's posting.... :nono: (I underlined the parts I dun agree)


Relation between radiation and heating of water....(do remember humans are 70% water)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_absorption

Microwave absorption in Human.... tat is if you can absorb wat they write in the first place :bsmilie:
http://personal.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/D.Jefferies/antennexarticles/mwabsor.htm

As to cellphone (and similarly wifi radiation) see 4th para of the answer
http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/page1.php?QNum=1516


But good Giorgio brought up DNA... I can't confirm it atm, IIRC DNA is somewhat affected by radiation energy (ionising or not) but biologically speaking there's somewhat a built-in checks to overcome errors and omissions, that's why we are largely unaffected... that being said, naturally, there's a limit to everything.... juz dun do stupid things like standing in front of a transmitting AEGIS radar.

*edit* okie found the link to DNA thingy... take note that it is on ionising radiation
http://www.e-radiography.net/radsafety/rad_biology.htm

finally found about the biological effects of NON-ionising radiation.... everone seem to forget UV light is non-ionising.
http://www.environmental-expert.com/resultEachArticle.aspx?cid=8909&codi=35&idproducttype=6