Your views on the current surging property market

[goon]

Yes, hdbs are still affordable. Important thing is you must have the right expectation. If you want to stay near town then be prepared to pay more. If you want cheap housing then look for the more ulu places but still near mrt like pioneer or sengkang. If that is still too expensive then look for those super ulu places like maybe teban where there is no mrt nearby. Even super ulu places willbe within an hour from the cbd (take bus then train), this is not too bad compared to places like KL, London or HK where many ppl take an hour to get to work.

Many of those who complain about prices being too high are those looking for flats in hot areas like queenstown, toa payoh but only willing to pay sengkand prices.

I think most people would choose or prefer to stay in a more central location because ( needless to say la) of acessibilty. Suppose u stay in Bukit panjang (like me) n work in the CBD area,it will take from 1hr 15min- 1hr40min spent on a bus ( depending on traffic) so that means everyday u spend an average of 3 hrs gettin to work UNLESS u travel during the off peak period which most don;t have the luxury.I know most of us spend that amount of time every working day.

A cab to work during the peak hrs cost S$20 ++ !!! Of coz that is for emergency only .Crux of the matter is the transport system haven;t been able to cope with the growing population incl. the current influx of FT n new PR's. Hence , choosing a central location to stay sometimes may not be just some 'fantasy dream' but of a practical nature to name just one ( as above).

If I work in Tuas ,would I still want to find a central place to stay? Of course no la.

Lastly ,if u have much younger colleagues who's a diploma holder,the starting pay is still S$1.6-1.9 K per month- sama sama as more than 10 yrs ago so needless to say the balance of affordability of HDB flats n our 'gross average pay' is totally lop sided as compared to many developed countries.

 

[diver-hloc]

I didn't miss your point; if you want to say it, then mean it. Else retract what you said. Saying "you win" is no point. Hence, I prefer to choose to read your statement as an admission that you realise the Govt is at fault. No point to patronise if you dont mean it.

I guess scanner and I belong to the group who prefers to see long term changes, ie tackling the root cause rather than the symptoms; whilst you are the group who prefers to tackle the symptoms on a short term immediate basis, preferring a shot in the arm to fight the immediate fire; rather than a long term cure. On top of that, you prefer to give yourself the shot in the arm, rather than asking the person who created the pain, to be responsible for it.

Its okay, I now understand where you are coming from.

What you "prefer to choose".... DOESN'T make it so. Most thing in Life isn't just Black or White.... Good or Evil.... but many shades of grey inbetween

Because I believe that you can't clap with one hand only... thats why I said I don't believe the fault lies with the Govt ONLY. The same could be said of Cash Rich investor who play the market... or house owner who ask for too high a price. Take your pick..... but if you consider that is patronising... then its up to you.

But answer this question.....

What advise would/could you give to someone who need to buy a House within the next 2years... wanting, but yet can't afford, the price of housing in some Hot Mature Estate ??


* Wait for both You & Scanner to "tackle the root of the problem".... before the 2years is up. :bsmilie:

* Hope that we have a change in Govt at the next election ?? but if not... wait another 4years ??

* Hope that some Home Owner take pity on you and sell the flat cheap ??

* Sit on your A**... Bit*h & Complaint & Point Fingers till something happens ??

* Just continue to live in your parents property even in your mid/late 30s ??

Or FACE REALITY and get the best deal you could afford even if you have to lower your expectation.... if lowering you expectation only gets you a mud hut.... At least that IS YOUR mud hut... and who knows, 10-15years later, your Mud Hut could also be worth more than twice the price you paid for.... much like my ULU Woodlands 4Room.


While it is 'Nice' of you to think of 'long term changes' & 'tackling the root cause rather than the symptoms'..... I'm afraid many can't wait till your 'grand plan' comes to a happy ending. And life is too short to just Sit & Bit*h till something happens :nono:

 

[vince123123]

I now take it that you withdraw your earlier statement and still maintain the Govt is in the right and has not contributed to the runaway rise in HDB housing prices.

For someone who says things are not in black and white, why don't you see the gray?

Simple answer to your hypothetical? For someone who needs something now, take measures to get it now, including but not limited to the measures you have suggested.

But, that does not mean that everyone should stop lobbying for a long term change. And everyone does not mean "scanner and me" alone.

If you are content to stick yourself in a rut, go ahead

I guess you are used to seeing things in black and white, despite what you say.

Oh and before you decide to rebutt, how about this; since you like to think in terms of win or lose; and like to hear you win; tell you what, YOU WIN! Hence, I get to make mypoints about without rebuttal since I gave you what you want to hear; YOU WIN!

What you "prefer to choose".... DOESN'T make it so. Most thing in Life isn't just Black or White.... Good or Evil.... but many shades of grey inbetween

Because I believe that you can't clap with one hand only... thats why I said I don't believe the fault lies with the Govt ONLY. The same could be said of Cash Rich investor who play the market... or house owner who ask for too high a price. Take your pick..... but if you consider that is patronising... then its up to you.

But answer this question.....

What advise would/could you give to someone who need to buy a House within the next 2years... wanting, but yet can't afford, the price of housing in some Hot Mature Estate ??


* Wait for both You & Scanner to "tackle the root of the problem".... before the 2years is up. :bsmilie:

* Hope that we have a change in Govt at the next election ?? but if not... wait another 4years ??

* Hope that some Home Owner take pity on you and sell the flat cheap ??

* Sit on your A**... Bit*h & Complaint & Point Fingers till something happens ??

* Just continue to live in your parents property even in your mid/late 30s ??

Or FACE REALITY and get the best deal you could afford even if you have to lower your expectation.... if lowering you expectation only gets you a mud hut.... At least that IS YOUR mud hut... and who knows, 10-15years later, your Mud Hut could also be worth more than twice the price you paid for.... much like my ULU Woodlands 4Room.


While it is 'Nice' of you to think of 'long term changes' & 'tackling the root cause rather than the symptoms'..... I'm afraid many can't wait till your 'grand plan' comes to a happy ending. And life is too short to just Sit & Bit*h till something happens :nono:

 

[alan1996]

I think most people would choose or prefer to stay in a more central location because ( needless to say la) of acessibilty. Suppose u stay in Bukit panjang (like me) n work in the CBD area,it will take from 1hr 15min- 1hr40min spent on a bus ( depending on traffic) so that means everyday u spend an average of 3 hrs gettin to work UNLESS u travel during the off peak period which most don;t have the luxury.I know most of us spend that amount of time every working day.

People starting a family would want to live near parent to help take care of the baby. This area are mostly expensive area. HDB grant of $10000 for living near parent does not cover the price of the resale HDB in that area.

The reason I think why some people ask for high COV?

1. People who need to sell their HDB to get a new one need the COV to pay for the other HDB with high COV.
2. If they are not buying a bigger HDB from your current one, they need to get bank loan. No HDB loan. HDB rule, of the 10% down payment, 5 % must be in cash if use bank loan. For resale HDB from bank loan, after 1 yr. can sell it. HDB loan (I think) is after 5 yrs.

One more thing, if get HDB loan, HDB will use ALL the money in CPF OA to pay the HDB and all amount not cover by your CPF OA will be the loan amount. So, no job no money in CPF OA to pay. Others CPF account cannot be use to pay HDB house.

 

[scanner]

What you "prefer to choose".... DOESN'T make it so. Most thing in Life isn't just Black or White.... Good or Evil.... but many shades of grey inbetween

Because I believe that you can't clap with one hand only... thats why I said I don't believe the fault lies with the Govt ONLY. The same could be said of Cash Rich investor who play the market... or house owner who ask for too high a price. Take your pick..... but if you consider that is patronising... then its up to you.

The key is who is the main cause of this issue. With the tightly control of supplies, long waiting time for new flat and influx of FT, it causes a hugh demand, skyrocketing the housing prices. In the end, who suffer?

But answer this question.....

What advise would/could you give to someone who need to buy a House within the next 2years... wanting, but yet can't afford, the price of housing in some Hot Mature Estate ??


* Wait for both You & Scanner to "tackle the root of the problem".... before the 2years is up. :bsmilie:

* Hope that we have a change in Govt at the next election ?? but if not... wait another 4years ??

* Hope that some Home Owner take pity on you and sell the flat cheap ??

* Sit on your A**... Bit*h & Complaint & Point Fingers till something happens ??

* Just continue to live in your parents property even in your mid/late 30s ??

Or FACE REALITY and get the best deal you could afford even if you have to lower your expectation.... if lowering you expectation only gets you a mud hut.... At least that IS YOUR mud hut... and who knows, 10-15years later, your Mud Hut could also be worth more than twice the price you paid for.... much like my ULU Woodlands 4Room.


While it is 'Nice' of you to think of 'long term changes' & 'tackling the root cause rather than the symptoms'..... I'm afraid many can't wait till your 'grand plan' comes to a happy ending. And life is too short to just Sit & Bit*h till something happens :nono:

Remember what happened in 1998, with the change in housing policy, HDB price decreased which averted a housing bubble before the Asian crisis. That is the magic of policy at work.

The problem is caused by the policy maker, they have to solve it themselves. What is the purpose of getting millions of dollars per annually, but not able to resolve problem? I will stop there, as the topic should be focus on housing and property prices.

Last but not least, Please do not drag me in the argument.

I will only welcome healthy exchange of views.

 

[diver-hloc]

I now take it that you withdraw your earlier statement and still maintain the Govt is in the right and has not contributed to the runaway rise in HDB housing prices.

For someone who says things are not in black and white, why don't you see the gray?

Simple answer to your hypothetical? For someone who needs something now, take measures to get it now, including but not limited to the measures you have suggested.

But, that does not mean that everyone should stop lobbying for a long term change. And everyone does not mean "scanner and me" alone.

If you are content to stick yourself in a rut, go ahead

I guess you are used to seeing things in black and white, despite what you say.

Since you are the one that add Scanner in your posts... its only correct for me to answer to your post as 'You & Scanner'.....

While you and others prefer to 'talk' THEORY & PHILOSOPHY, and there's nothing wrong in that.... but many living in the Real World have to make do as well as they could and can't always wait for some 'Internet Prophecies'' to happen before carrying on with their lives....

So.... thxs for admitting that 'Lowering Your Expectation' is not so laughable or hard to 'endure' when the sh*t hits the fan and you need a house here and now. :thumbsup:

 

[vince123123]

Since you like to hear "YOU WIN" so I say "YOU WIN" to you lor Grin . The admission is mutual I just don't want to waste time on an unproductive discussion which adds no new points, so yah, I'll say "YOU WIN" again

And you totally missed the point on "me and scanner". Read again.

Since you are the one that add Scanner in your posts... its only correct for me to answer to your post as 'You & Scanner'.....

While you and others prefer to 'talk' THEORY & PHILOSOPHY, and there's nothing wrong in that.... but many living in the Real World have to make do as well as they could and can't always wait for some 'Internet Prophecies'' to happen before carrying on with their lives....

So.... thxs for admitting that 'Lowering Your Expectation' is not so laughable or hard to 'endure' when the sh*t hits the fan and you need a house here and now. :thumbsup:

 

[vince123123]

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Its okay, some do not prefer to have an exchange of ideas; just want to solve everything himself, one man hero That's why bad policies continue to be gotten away with; because there are too few people wanting to speak up against bad policies.

If people shy away even from speaking up; we can't even cross the threshold of trying to actually make something happen. Lobby groups always start with talk, creating awareness, and gathering mass; and with critical mass, pressure and then action can follow.

The key is who is the main cause of this issue. With the tightly control of supplies, long waiting time for new flat and influx of FT, it causes a hugh demand, skyrocketing the housing prices. In the end, who suffer?


Remember what happened in 1998, with the change in housing policy, HDB price decreased which averted a housing bubble before the Asian crisis. That is the magic of policy at work.

The problem is caused by the policy maker, they have to solve it themselves. What is the purpose of getting millions of dollars per annually, but not able to resolve problem? I will stop there, as the topic should be focus on housing and property prices.

Last but not least, Please do not drag me in the argument.

I will only welcome healthy exchange of views.

 

[diver-hloc]

Last but not least, Please do not drag me in the argument.

I will only welcome healthy exchange of views.

I didn't drag you into any argument.... you should ask why vince123123 decided to add your name into his post (Post #193).

But if you are offended.... I apologize :embrass:

 

[vince123123]

How come you dont post your counterview to the more substantive parts of his post? :bsmilie::bsmilie:

I didn't drag you into any argument.... you should ask why vince123123 decided to add your name into his post (Post #193).

But if you are offended.... I apologize :embrass:

 

[scanner]

I didn't drag you into any argument.... you should ask why vince123123 decided to add your name into his post (Post #193).

But if you are offended.... I apologize :embrass:

I guess, I've make myself clear, the intention is to have a healthy debate.
I accepted your apology.

Thanks

 

[alantkh]

The point is, there are people who feels that hdb is still affordable. It all depends on where the flat is and how big.

I am one of them. There are others like me. The government feels that way too. It all depends on the population. what are the percentage of people who wants lower hdb prices and who feels that current status quo is good.

There are a LOT of people who don't want a property market crash. Similarly, a lot of people don't want runaway prices. The whole point is getting to prices to move up gradually which is tough.

One FACT to note. You guys keep saying the recent property price increaase is a government policy problem. Have you guys read the news? Everywhere else in Asia from china, to Seoul to hongkong the property prices are going up at the same rate if not faster? Do they have the same governments as us?

why can't this increase be just a normal market movement? People think that Asia property is going to boom?

This increase in property price is not a "singaporean" problem.

you guys expect the Government to fight against global forces and force the property prices in singapore down relative to its Asian neighbours?

The key is who is the main cause of this issue. With the tightly control of supplies, long waiting time for new flat and influx of FT, it causes a hugh demand, skyrocketing the housing prices. In the end, who suffer?

Remember what happened in 1998, with the change in housing policy, HDB price decreased which averted a housing bubble before the Asian crisis. That is the magic of policy at work.

The problem is caused by the policy maker, they have to solve it themselves. What is the purpose of getting millions of dollars per annually, but not able to resolve problem? I will stop there, as the topic should be focus on housing and property prices.

Last but not least, Please do not drag me in the argument.

I will only welcome healthy exchange of views.

 

[vince123123]

Before you launch into the "compare with other countries" argument, have you also done similar research on the level of income and spending power, as well as its rise over time, in these other countries?

Comparison can only be validly made not just based on one factor, but all related factors.

The point is, there are people who feels that hdb is still affordable. It all depends on where the flat is and how big.

I am one of them. There are others like me. The government feels that way too. It all depends on the population. what are the percentage of people who wants lower hdb prices and who feels that current status quo is good.

There are a LOT of people who don't want a property market crash. Similarly, a lot of people don't want runaway prices. The whole point is getting to prices to move up gradually which is tough.

One FACT to note. You guys keep saying the recent property price increaase is a government policy problem. Have you guys read the news? Everywhere else in Asia from china, to Seoul to hongkong the property prices are going up at the same rate if not faster? Do they have the same governments as us?

why can't this increase be just a normal market movement? People think that Asia property is going to boom?

This increase in property price is not a "singaporean" problem.

you guys expect the Government to fight against global forces and force the property prices in singapore down relative to its Asian neighbours?

 

[alantkh]

Before you launch into the "compare with other countries" argument, have you also done similar research on the level of income and spending power, as well as its rise over time, in these other countries?

Comparison can only be validly made not just based on one factor, but all related factors.

??????????

faint... I am not replying to any of your posts anymore. it is just pretty pointless..... this is an online forum. You are asking me to validate my point with ALL RELATED FACTORS????? get a life.... do you personally do that for all arguements u make?

 

[alan1996]

The point is, there are people who feels that hdb is still affordable. It all depends on where the flat is and how big.

I am one of them. There are others like me. The government feels that way too. It all depends on the population. what are the percentage of people who wants lower hdb prices and who feels that current status quo is good.

There are a LOT of people who don't want a property market crash. Similarly, a lot of people don't want runaway prices. The whole point is getting to prices to move up gradually which is tough.

One FACT to note. You guys keep saying the recent property price increaase is a government policy problem. Have you guys read the news? Everywhere else in Asia from china, to Seoul to hongkong the property prices are going up at the same rate if not faster? Do they have the same governments as us?

why can't this increase be just a normal market movement? People think that Asia property is going to boom?

This increase in property price is not a "singaporean" problem.

you guys expect the Government to fight against global forces and force the property prices in singapore down relative to its Asian neighbours?

HDB house is public housing not private housing and it is high. Asia property booming but not their public housing. GOV said HDB price is Ok, using the monthly loan repayment over income and match it with what other country loan repayment size. I do not think the loan repayment and income rate that they talk about are base on public housing. HDB price cannot be the same as normal property property. HDB do not bid for the land and most of their office cost or rent and salary are from Tax Payer.

 

[scanner]

HDB house is public housing not private housing and it is high. Asia property booming but not their public housing. GOV said HDB price is Ok, using the monthly loan repayment over income and match it with what other country loan repayment size. I do not think the loan repayment and income rate that they talk about are base on public housing. HDB price cannot be the same as normal property property. HDB do not bid for the land and most of their office cost or rent and salary are from Tax Payer.

Yes, good point. :thumbsup:

 

[alantkh]

HDB house is public housing not private housing and it is high. Asia property booming but not their public housing. GOV said HDB price is Ok, using the monthly loan repayment over income and match it with what other country loan repayment size. I do not think the loan repayment and income rate that they talk about are base on public housing. HDB price cannot be the same as normal property property. HDB do not bid for the land and most of their office cost or rent and salary are from Tax Payer.

mm.... on the surface it looks like a GOOD thing to seperate public housing price and private housing price.

Seriously, think about it a little bit more. That is what hong kong did I think in the past. The public housing cannot be sold on resale so there is no VALUE in it. Thus the prices can be kept artificially low. no matter how much the private property is booming, public housing is always controlled.

u think that is good? Basically, u end up like hong kong. pubilc housing is worthless and you have a section of poor citizens who have no capital assets. Imagine, two families, one bought a private property for 100k 20 years ago and another who bought a public housing for 50k. now the private property is worth 500k....

It all just doesn't make sense to me. Can someone tell me how it is going to work?

PLEASE don't say, hey I am not paid to do this. if u want to offer a suggestion, makes sure it is workable.

 

[diver-hloc]

I guess, I've make myself clear, the intention is to have a healthy debate.
I accepted your apology.

Thanks

I thank you for accepting my apology... and I mean it :thumbsup:

While it may be true that we are doing nothing more than having a 'Healthy Debate'.... I'm just telling people that there are WAYS which they could still own their house without COV or selling off their kidneys.... if they really need their house soon.

But you must remember YOU can't have everything YOUR way.... Theres no place on Earth that you can stay in Prime Location and yet pay peanuts (not the $600K type of peanuts). You get what you paid for.... if you doesn't need a House now and can wait.... feel free to sit and debate till the Cows come home.... But if you need your own place asap, example - Getting Marry, but your new Wife/Husband isn't willing to stay with the in-law... your Parents intent to sell and downgrade so that they have money for retiredment and ask you to look for your own place... You, at last, wants your own place soon to spread your wings.... etc

Debate debate debate.... and praying doesn't means that Policy or Govt could change in time to benefits you. But lowering your expectation and getting by with what you could afford, surely WILL.

THEORY & PHILOSOPHY is good.... but we can't all Sit & Wait can we ?? :think:

I, myself, is a good example.... I just got out of the Navy and is at a new job during the 98-99 Asia Finance Crisis. My new pay is only $1200+.... my parents need to sell off their 3Room AMK flats because like everyone else, we have money problems. I'm left with few choices.... get a $200+K Resale flat at AMK with all its Mature Estate 'Hot-ness'.... or get a cheaper but bigger 4Room flat at Woodlands for $112-6K. Btw Woodlands isn't Ulu even when i moved in in 1999.... MRT station is just 5-7minutes from my place, already up and running on the day I move in.... plus a big Mall nearby (Causeway Point) within 1-2 years. And now, 10+years later.... my unit is worth $240-$300K (High Floor).

If I die die buy Resale in AMK.... perhars the unit would have 'Earn' more by now... but I can't Afford/Get a loan with my low income. So, I did what i had been telling EVERYONE HERE.... I lower-ed my expectation and get a flat that I could afford.... not sit and complaint why I can't get this or that, how come this how come that....

When Sh*t hits the fan... you can duck for cover, or get hit by it.... THEORY & PHILOSOPHY was no help to me then... and is no help to people who face my problems from 10years ago now.

HDB housing IS affordable..... but only if you have the correct expectation.

 

[vince123123]

Nope, I'm pointing out the flaws in your argument using comparison with other countries as a basis.

There is simply no basis for comparison. For example, in HK, starting graduates in my industry earn 3X what they earn in Singapore. Do housing prices rise 3X as fast as in Singapore?

Cheers!
Vince123123

??????????

faint... I am not replying to any of your posts anymore. it is just pretty pointless..... this is an online forum. You are asking me to validate my point with ALL RELATED FACTORS????? get a life.... do you personally do that for all arguements u make?

 

[vince123123]

I'll just like to expand a bit on this.

Consider this scenario,

MRT fares rise towards say, S$10 a trip due to policy factors. Bus fares, remain the same, but over time, becomes erratic and buses only arrive once an hr (to maintain the price)

Now, on the one hand, we can say public transport is not affordable. On the other hand, we can also say we can lower our expectations and take the bus instead of the MRT, waiting for 1 hr and waking up early; instead of complaining that the public transport is no longer affordable. For me, I will prefer to lobby against the rise to S$10, whilst for you, you prefer to lower the expectation and take the bus. Both are fine approaches.

I do understand where you are coming from, and I think you also do understand my views. Unfortunately, both views, whilst equally valid, can't really gel with one another. But at least after some to and fros, I think both parties now understand each other's points fully and I'm glad that is achieved in this discussion.

Cheers!
Vince123123

HDB housing IS affordable..... but only if you have the correct expectation.