Zone System

[yqt]

I know I'm going to regret this and I'm putting my head on the chopping block with this posting but, because of what an old gentleman have told me, I'll take the risk.

I've been reading this thread and I find something very unsettleing here.
No matter how much we may know, I don't think it is proper of anyone to put anyone down in the way you have put others down. Read your own replies to others, IMHO, there is a tone of "upper class superior being" to it. I've talk to others about it and I'm suprised that you have "quite a following" of CSers who will refuse to con't in a thread when you come into it, not because you don't make sense but because of this "upper class " tone of yours.

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against you, in fact, as much as I'm uncomfortable with the tone and length of your postings, I think, you know what you're saying.

Sorry if I've cross you in any way but, to take a leaf out of your posting, it reminds me of something in my early days of photography.

A very old gentleman once told me:
"no matter how much you know,
how much experience you have,
if you put people off with your speech to the point where,
others are put off by you,
all that you have learn will be lost and that,
is the biggest disservice to all those who have help you
and taught you what you know"

I'm not a man of high edu. and do not consider myself as a man with vast experence, I apologize to you, if I've offended you in any way, but take this thread, I was interested to know more about the ZS but I'm starting to be put off by the tone of your postings. I would hate to think that newbies who wish to learn may feel the same.

Of course you have the right to disagreed with what I've said, and brand me as nothing more than rubbish. That is your opinion, you are entitled to it. But I just hope you think about it.

 

[student]

I know I'm going to regret this and I'm putting my head on the chopping block with this posting but, because of what an old gentleman have told me, I'll take the risk.

I've been reading this thread and I find something very unsettleing here.
No matter how much we may know, I don't think it is proper of anyone to put anyone down in the way you have put others down. Read your own replies to others, IMHO, there is a tone of "upper class superior being" to it. I've talk to others about it and I'm suprised that you have "quite a following" of CSers who will refuse to con't in a thread when you come into it, not because you don't make sense but because of this "upper class " tone of yours.

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against you, in fact, as much as I'm uncomfortable with the tone and length of your postings, I think, you know what you're saying.

Sorry if I've cross you in any way but, to take a leaf out of your posting, it reminds me of something in my early days of photography.

A very old gentleman once told me:
"no matter how much you know,
how much experience you have,
if you put people off with your speech to the point where,
others are put off by you,
all that you have learn will be lost and that,
is the biggest disservice to all those who have help you
and taught you what you know"

I'm not a man of high edu. and do not consider myself as a man with vast experence, I apologize to you, if I've offended you in any way, but take this thread, I was interested to know more about the ZS but I'm starting to be put off by the tone of your postings. I would hate to think that newbies who wish to learn may feel the same.

Of course you have the right to disagreed with what I've said, and brand me as nothing more than rubbish. That is your opinion, you are entitled to it. But I just hope you think about it.

Please clarify who you are referring to. Are you referring to me and my postings? Please be clear. If you are indeed referring to me, let me state my position. AGAIN. BTW, I am not and will not be displeased by what you had written. Such pettiness is a bloody waste of time!

I am a relative newbie in photography. In my short journey I had experienced the agonies and difficulties of understanding the art and craft of photography. I had experienced the frustrations of so-called "seniors" who are more interested in their own pockets and "secrets". These I despise. And I decide should I learn something useful, I will share when I can. I am not a professional and have nothing to gain by antagonising another. I am surprise that you mentioned that I have a "following"? God forbid! Take what I have to offer, and move on! There will be a lot of CSers who have more to offer than I! But I do value friends. And true friends are mot made by some inflated bigots making speeches, but by caring and willing to spend time in need.

I have always held the postion of free speech, dissent, and debate.

And I am forthright. I do not bullshit, nor give praise when praise is not deserved. I do not pamper when pampering is uncalled for. When I disagree, I usually state my position clearly. If I think someone has given misformation that can lead another down the wrong way, I will not hesitate to point out and correct in the most direct manner. My wise professor (since deceased) once told me, "Look for the bug, and tackled it in the most unambiguous manner".

Some have called my position "confrontational". If indeed this is the case, I stand guilty (Well, this is not the first time I was told this! So there is likely a great deal of truth in this description). However, I really do not at all feel that I am "superior" nor "upper class". If you have seen my images, you will know that I am not! If someone feels that I look down on them, I apologise. I do not look down on another person. My statements and comments are directed not at people, but at their ideas (sometimes I do err, and if indeed the case, I apologise) But I have little tolerance for those ignorant who had "superior" attitudes and condescending attitudes. I have seen this over and over again in this forum.

Someone who got to know the way I do things had actually mentioned that I should be a politician! Because I could go straight to the point and get things done! How wrong she was! I will never get things done as a politician! A politician I will never be! I do not know the game of politics nor have any inclinations to play the game. I do not call white black, and black white. I am afraid that I have not cultivated the "wise ways" that your exalted elderly gentleman mentioned.

But if, as you "wise" gentleman said that my manner of speech alienates rather than win "friends", then so be it! But I have already won one if not two, arising from this thread. I met a CSer a couple of days ago, and spent time with him. He sent me a PM saying indeed that the ZS can be simple and useful. This Friday I will meet him again, and he will bring a friend.

If people are put off my manner of writing, frankly, I do not care a damn! But do try to see if what I said make sense. If you dissent, so be it! If you have contrary opinion, really I do not care! I will not flinch a single fibre of my eyelid! But this thread started with a person asking about ZS, and he is a newbie! I hate to see the newbie led down the wrong path. If I see "A blind leading a blind" and they are about to fall, I will intervene. Perhaps my intervention may not be the best, but I will take action.

You said that what I wrote do not make sense. What are these? I had only make general statements about the ZS, and had not even begun to talk about the "meat" yet!

And oh! You are not the first, nor will be you be the last, to think that I am a overrated bigot with an inflated sense of cockiness and worth. This is my life. As I had written earlier, this is a "character" flaw that I have not been able to change. And at the half century mark, I doubt I will or can change.

 

[singscott]

I am not happy of what some poeple try to say and defend here. :angry: Student I think greatly contribute to this forum with his good knowledge. What have he done or matter of fact I done? We are just trying to answer a follow photographer inquiry. Discourage misinformention from people who dun have an idea on the topic yet they still want to misled people thinking they know what they are talking about. We even willing to contribut our precious time do a workshop to educate keen photographers who are interested to know zone system. If someone tell me that these are wrong what is right. Respect some one opinion even he wrong is foolish. There have been alot of talks, but how many here can action on what he preach. The worst one are those have only accusations but no real information to share. I am not a saint I have made mistakes or give wrong inform but I took this in stride when I am been corrected because I learn. This I felt is not the case. :nono: Worry and fear is not apart of the learning process. :think:

 

[yqt]

I am not happy of what some poeple try to say and defend here. :angry: Student I think greatly contribute to this forum with his good knowledge. What have he done or matter of fact I done? We are just trying to answer a follow photographer inquiry. Discourage misinformention from people who dun have an idea on the topic yet they still want to misled people thinking they know what they are talking about. We even willing to contribut our precious time do a workshop to educate keen photographers who are interested to know zone system. If someone tell me that these are wrong what is right. Respect some one opinion even he wrong is foolish. There have been alot of talks, but how many here can action on what he preach. The worst one are those have only accusations but no real information to share. I am not a saint I have made mistakes or give wrong inform but I took this in stride when I am been corrected because I learn. This I felt is not the case. :nono: Worry and fear is not apart of the learning process. :think:

singscott
I fully agreed with you. My posting is in no way refering to you. Infact I think you have carried yourself very well with your replies and I applauded you for you time and effort in trying to help others along. From your postings, I can see that your knowledge in the ZS is far more better than my and I've much to learn.

To discourage misinformention is something which I also try to do but, given my limited knowledge, I only do so on issues which I've knowledge on. On this issue of ZS I only came in as I wanted to learn but am starting to feel rather put off by the way some of the postings are done. Again, here, I'm not refering to you.

A very noble act IMO, for you to be willing to spend time and effort to conduct a workshop to help others learn about the ZS. It is only when we have people who have a true passion to help others that we can all progress.

"Respect some one opinion even he wrong is foolish." This is what you have written and I do respect you for praticing what you preach. Take this reply of yours, I sense that you felt offended/uncomfortable with my posting and I apologize if you though that I'm refering to you, but your reply is very much that of a gentleman, you state your point and your stand but you still respect others. Though there may be some typo error in your above statement, but I take it to mean " to respect others even if the opinion is a foolish one " and IMO you have done that.

I'm not here to cast accusation on anyone. I'm only posting because I do feel that both you and student have good knowledge to share. It is such a waste if because of the way some postings are worded, that this knowledge may not be pass down to a greater no of people. What I've learn from my elderly gentleman is what conpell me to post what I have.

"I am not a saint I have made mistakes or give wrong inform but I took this in stride when I am been corrected because I learn." How true. I belive none of us are saints and we have much to learn from this statement of yours.

I'm not posting here to try to butter up anyone. I think in my postings I've given you and other readers the wrong impression that you're the one I'm refering to and feel the need to right that wrong. Even with this posting you have every right to be angry with me as afterall, I'm the one who first cast the stone.

Through my limited edu. and bad composition I hope that I've tried to explain my stand, if not as a gentleman than at least as someone who's trying to be one. I do look forward to your other postings as I belive that you have much to offer. Thank you.

 

[yqt]

You said that what I wrote do not make sense. What are these? I had only make general statements about the ZS, and had not even begun to talk about the "meat" yet!

At this point in time could you please point out which statement that I've wrote that said that you do not make sense?

Infact what I've written is:
"Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against you, in fact, as much as I'm uncomfortable with the tone and length of your postings, I think, you know what you're saying."

Please let me know where is the statement you have accused me of making.

 

[student]

At this point in time could you please point out which statement that I've wrote that said that you do not make sense?

Infact what I've written is:
"Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against you, in fact, as much as I'm uncomfortable with the tone and length of your postings, I think, you know what you're saying."

Please let me know where is the statement you have accused me of making.

Don't be so "jumpy". I am not accusing you of anything. I just want to understand what you are talking about. I had written that I don't offended by such things. Too petty for me.

Just to remind you. In paragraph (2) (#101) you wrote "you don't make sense".

Perhaps I do not understand what you wrote. But if I don't make sense, please let me know specifically what is it that I "don't make sense".

It had been commented sometime ago by another CSer that "why do you always have to win?" Frankly I don't have to "win". I am comfortable with myself and I don't have to prove anything. I put points forth. Sometimes when others could not come up with an answer, the typical reactions are "do you have to win?" Occasionally more childish " your English is bad" or something of that nature. I am not interested in such tirades. Get your points across. It is not a sparring to see who is better or wins. It is a matter of clarifying issues.

Don't read my posts if you are offended by what sounds like austere tone.

 

[yqt]

Just to remind you. In paragraph (2) (#101) you wrote "you don't make sense".

Again, where did I wrote the statement? Please read my posting again. In fact what I've written is:
"not because you don't make sense but because of this "upper class " tone of yours."

The key word here is "not", in other words, you do make sense, But if we take that out, than I do stand guilty.
Any other para. that you might want to point out to me and the rest of the readers here?
Sorry that you have to spend time on such "petty issues" but I've been asked by my friends where is the statement as they could not find it also.

 

[kex]

i hve no problem with student way of communication leh...

wads ur problem yqt?

if u dun like it,dun read lor..u get paid reading ?

if u can't contribute ur knowledge,pls dun dictate the way others do..


World Peace! :heart:

 

[hongsien]

Alamak! Misunderstanding again lah!.........yqt, this is the way internet messages are, they are only words, and these can be perceived differently, don't let be misguided by your emotions........

a very emotional Hong Sien....I am crying to see all this happening....

I have something to add: Zone system is nice and well, but not so practical for a long roll of film as 35mm film is: when you have different images requiring different developments all on the same roll, how are you going to develop them separately? .....think this need to be pointed out.....

HS

 

[yqt]

kex
good for you. you're one of those who are able to learn from student and I wish you all the best :thumbsup: .

at the start, just hoping more can learn from the same source. But now I need to know where have I accused someone of something and offer my apology if I'm wrong. :dunno:

No I don't get paid reading, just like you I read what catches me and those threads that I can learn from.

I don't think I've "detated" how someone can respond. Just a note hoping that more or at least some that I know can enjoy the postings here.

Yes World Peace :heart:

hongsien
Thanks for the reminder man. I'm very calm in my reply and just want to be enlighten. I'm not too well edu. so sometime have problem putting mind to words. Sorry that I make you cry :sweat:

 

[The_Cheat]

Alamak! Misunderstanding again lah!.........yqt, this is the way internet messages are, they are only words, and these can be perceived differently, don't let be misguided by your emotions........

a very emotional Hong Sien....I am crying to see all this happening....

I have something to add: Zone system is nice and well, but not so practical for a long roll of film as 35mm film is: when you have different images requiring different developments all on the same roll, how are you going to develop them separately? .....think this need to be pointed out.....

HS

Think you could always do a mid-roll change after that one exposure that you made which you wanna manipulate with development time and pop in another roll that continue shooting. If not, you can always just develop the whole roll for that one shot. Why be dictated or limited by one of the cheapest component of photography, i.e. the film?

 

[yqt]

I have something to add: Zone system is nice and well, but not so practical for a long roll of film as 35mm film is: when you have different images requiring different developments all on the same roll, how are you going to develop them separately? .....think this need to be pointed out.....

HS

Yes, that's why most of the time, ZS is done on film sheets. When I'm learning about ZS ( or at least trying to learn ), and was too poor to buy film sheets, we either shoot on 120 or 35mm and cut the roll film to do the processing ie: shoot the same on frame 1,2 and 3 and process frame 2 as frame 1 and 3 will most likely be cut. If you're thinking of doing it this way, well it is a very hard way of learning.
Good luck!!

 

[The_Cheat]

... I'm not too well edu. so sometime have problem putting mind to words. Sorry that I make you cry :sweat:

OT mode on...

Seriously that's like one of our top all time excuses from people in the Ivory Tower. "Don't bully me hor, cos I don't study a lot!" :bsmilie:

OT mode off...

Hey yqt, I doubt that you're the first, nor would you be the last person, who have problem with student's "tone" in the forum. But have you really think about what your posts have just achieved? Frankly, nothing.

Already this thread has already been littered full of misconceptions of ZS and as far as I'm concerned, not a single one that actually talk about what the ZS is and how it's used. Another friend of mine who was trying to know more about the ZS, read this thread and told me simply that there's a war going on in the thread, without anybody actually explaining what the ZS is. How true it seems.

Your post, yqt, have re-ignited the dying flame in this thread, not to the benefit of anyone who wanted to come in here to know what the ZS is about. Rather, it's directed to one individual who'd contributed greatly to my understanding of ZS.

Given that this thread serve no other purpose right now than degrade into a flaming war between you and student, I think it's only right to close this thread. If you have anymore things to say to student, please do so by PM.

And for the rest of the newbies out there who're interested in learning more about the ZS, I would urge you to go for the workshop that would be conducted by student and singscott, hopefully in the near future.