Why Olympus or M43 users should keep their gear?


Samsung is a technique called "Pixel Binning". I am not a Tech Pro, so for those who are interested to find out more can read the article below.

Anyway, Sony and Olympus also has a function to generate high res shots (eg. Olympus EM1 mk3 can produce 80mp shots and Sony has pixel shift
to bump up the resolution to 4 times (eg. 242mp on the A7r4).

I wouldn't call it a gimmick as it really works when you try to blow the pictures up to wall posters size.
Of course the 80mp shot from a Olympus cannot match a 80mp medium or large format camera,
but it is a good solution if you only need this once in blue moon.

So how did Samsung manage to get 108Mp into that tiny phone?
 

It's heartwarming to see that Olympus / JIP continue to innovate and support us,
even my very old 60mm Macro lenses get the new feature Focus Stacking :)

Focus stacking is especially great for Macro shots as there are times we want
more parts of a insect or flower to be in focus.

Birds Ai is great, as trying to spot focus on a jittery bird with surround branches is
sometimes a pain and delay us for a few seconds and caused us to miss some shots.
It is especially difficult at 600mm or more.

But I am sad Olympus did not include Birds AI on other cameras except the E-M1x.
If it is on the E-M1 mk 3, I may consider to upgrade, because I really don't like the vertical grip
to be permanently attached, as most of the time, I don't need it and prefer a smaller
camera body by removing it. Olympus / JIP, are you listening?

 

They must have something that sets those cameras apart. Else why but the X is all features are the same across the board? I won't pay for a OMD 1.3 if everything can be found in the OMD 1.2 and i won't pay for an OMD 5.3 if it's similar to a OMD 1.2.
 

I thought of that too. But then, when I look at the A7R4 @ 61Mb, the 20 megapixel M43 sensor is already as dense (based on pixel per sq in).
Anyway, the Full Frame A7R4 has also reach its limits, with some reviewers noted that the noise level is slightly higher at high ISO compared to the 42mp A7R3.
So it looks like it will be challenging for M43 to increase the megapixel beyond 20mp.

Pixel density of a 20MP m43 sensor is equal to 80MP FF. So the A7R4 has less pixel density than 20MP m43 sensors.
But all this is a misnomer. Pixel density doesn't increase the noise levels of an image. It may decrease the signal levels slightly as the pixel walls still occupy some surface area but with BSI and gapless microlenses, these have been non-issues for a long time already.
The differences between A7R4 and A7R3 comes down to how the sensors have been optimised. A7R4 sensor has a larger bandwidth and the need to offload data quicker does increase electronic noise.
But the two sensors occupy the same surface area (the FF frame size) and will perform largely the same regardless of pixel count. The sensor area is the main determinant of how much signal is collected (assuming same sensor QE). Photons shot noise will be the same. Electronic read noise will differ depending on how the sensor is optimised.

WRT to smartphone sensors, the incredible pixel density are real. And generally speaking, the tech on smaller sensors are far more advance and more efficient than large sensors. It generally takes a few years before sensor tech work it's way up to larger sensors.
But all those pixels doesn't mean it is resolving anywhere near it's maximum potential. You've got diffraction rearing it's head and probably most importantly, the lenses in front of those sensors doesn't resolve anywhere near it's maximum potential.
So you can get 100+MP of data from these tiny lensor modules but you're not achieving anywhere near 100+MP of resolution.
But because these sensors are incredibly quick, you can do all sorts of things with that data plus you wouldn't want 100MP files anyways due to storage issues.
Binning is just a way of combining pixels and have been around forever. Nikon's D1X was a binned sensor from 2001.
A 4:1 bin from a 108MP Bayer sensor gets you 27MP images but each pixel now has all the RGB colour information compared to just a regular 27MP Bayer sensor where colour information is interpolated from its neighbour pixels. I think they experiment with various different CFA's such as quad-Bayer rather than regular Bayer.
They can do all sorts of creative methods to improve the final image by starting off with far more sampling (large pixel count) and because the data offload are so quick and you've powerful CPU's working on those data, there's not really any lag penalty and creates better final images of a far more reasonable (for storage) resolution.

In terms of how the results look, forget resolution for a moment and think about magnification.
The main reason larger sensors produce better results when displaying or printing large is because they are magnified much less. If you don't magnify the results much (eg. displaying on a phone or small prints) you just can't see the difference.
When you do magnify the image for display, then resolution starts to matter but this is relative to the amount of magnification.
Your viewing distance is also a factor because how close you view an image/photo is similar to how much you magnify the image. That's why you can have iphone billboard sized images that look just fine as long as they're on a billboard which means you're viewing it from far away.
 

They must have something that sets those cameras apart. Else why but the X is all features are the same across the board? I won't pay for a OMD 1.3 if everything can be found in the OMD 1.2 and i won't pay for an OMD 5.3 if it's similar to a OMD 1.2.
X has dual CPU's. The larger body may also have better thermals.
 

Very old Fuji X-T2 has had focus stacking since May 2018. 2nd hand ones can be had for relatively low price.
No idea why JIP/OM Digital Solutions are being tight fisted about a firmware update in 2020.
This is old hat. This is not First In The World achievement or ground breaking advancement.
Others have had it for YEARS.

Well that may explain why the Olympus camera division was divested.
This kind of policy alienates your most loyal customers.
Hmm.... they may make you PAY for the firmware upgrade - to raise money to achieve profitability in 1 year.
It is not a new attitude. Panasonic makes you pay for some upgrades.
 

Oh dear, Looks like I got to sell my Oly for a Fuji if I want stacking and I need to hunt for a discontinues Casio for the pre capture. I also need to buy a Sony for the small body. Now How can I merge all 3 together??
 

I now have a Sony A7R3 in my house at my disposal as my son just got one.
He use it mainly with primes and vintage lenses.

When I told him I was checking out the Sony Tele lenses, he was hoping that I will get one so he can use it too.
He was disappointed when I brought home a used Olympus 40-150 F2.8 with a TC and he asked me why.

This is what I told him.
1) The Sony 70-300 F4.5-5.6 cannot be used with a Tele-converter. As I plan to do birding in the near future, the Olympus 40-150 F2.8 can be turned into a 160-600mm F5.6 but I cannot do that with the Sony lenses.
2) The Sony 70-200 F2.8 with a 2x TC can only reach up to 400mm, not really enough the reach I want. It also cost a lot more than the Olympus.
3) The Sony 200-600F5.6-6.3 is really too huge and I do not have the flexibility of having the 80-300mm range at F2.8 which the Olympus gaves me when I am not using any TC.

I realized that Sony Full Frame Telephoto lenses are actually quite limited compared to its Primes and Standard Zoom.
Anyway that is where Sony FF strength is, with its high resolution and light sensitivity.

I am glad I kept my Olympus /M43 camera. I probably will keep it for Telephoto to exploit its 2x crop factor advantage,
Just met another friend with 3 Olympus bodies. I asked him his plans now that Olympus has been sold. He said nothing changed,
he just continue using all the gear he has. They continue to work well for him. :)
 

@Pitachu , tell your son to get those kowzeiss himself. $$$ don't grow on trees. hehehe

I share lenses with my dotter who is into photography for her course work. She was so trilled when I brought home a used 100-300. She uses that GX8 with the 12-35 and 35-100. Her GX8 set is an inheritance from my late dad.
 

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Sorry but a 70-200 f/2.8 with TC 2X is 140-400 f/5.6 but with an APS-C crop from an A7R3, it reaches 600mm equivalent with still 18.7MP. By your reasoning that combo in APS-C mode is a 210-600 f/5.6 @18.7MP.

But it’s not because you can’t mix actual and equivalent settings. So the Sony A7R3 with 70-200 f/2.8 w TC 2 in APS-C mode is a 210-600 f/8 equivalent.
Just like the Olympus 40-150 with TC2 is an 80-300 f/5.6 actual or 160-600 f/11 equivalent.

Don’t mix actual and equivalent. You can’t pick and choose. It really doesn’t help the m43 cause by denying equivalence.
If you want to pick and choose then the Sony’s a 210-600 f/5.6 using an APS-C area, which still beats 160-600 f/5.6 using an m43 area.
 

By equivalence, do you mean Depth of Field equivalent to F11 for the 40-150 with TC2?

Because as far as speed is concerned, let say at ISO 200, let say at max. aperture 2.8, I do manage to get a reasonable shutter speed of 1/250 or 1/500
which I cannot with a F11 lenses (after adding a 2xTC on a F5.6 FF lens). So the 40-150 is still a fast lenses for me.

Sorry but a 70-200 f/2.8 with TC 2X is 140-400 f/5.6 but with an APS-C crop from an A7R3, it reaches 600mm equivalent with still 18.7MP. By your reasoning that combo in APS-C mode is a 210-600 f/5.6 @18.7MP.

But it’s not because you can’t mix actual and equivalent settings. So the Sony A7R3 with 70-200 f/2.8 w TC 2 in APS-C mode is a 210-600 f/8 equivalent.
Just like the Olympus 40-150 with TC2 is an 80-300 f/5.6 actual or 160-600 f/11 equivalent.

Don’t mix actual and equivalent. You can’t pick and choose. It really doesn’t help the m43 cause by denying equivalence.
If you want to pick and choose then the Sony’s a 210-600 f/5.6 using an APS-C area, which still beats 160-600 f/5.6 using an m43 area.
 

By equivalence, do you mean Depth of Field equivalent to F11 for the 40-150 with TC2?

Because as far as speed is concerned, let say at ISO 200, let say at max. aperture 2.8, I do manage to get a reasonable shutter speed of 1/250 or 1/500
which I cannot with a F11 lenses (after adding a 2xTC on a F5.6 FF lens). So the 40-150 is still a fast lenses for me.
No, I don’t mean just in terms of DOF.
You can use whatever shutter speed you like with the max aperture you have. You only adjust the ISO as necessary to get the image brightness you want.

Let’s say you’re using your 40-150 at 150mm at f/2.8. Then you add a TC2X. Now you’re at 300mm f/5.6 actual settings (not equivalent).
Now let’s say you need 1/500s to get an acceptably sharp image at 300mm f/5.6 from a motion blur perspective. So 1/500s f/5.6 becomes your exposure setting. You then need an appropriate ISO to get the correct brightness you desire, let’s say ISO 400 for the lighting level of your subject.

Now let’s say your son is using a FF and 600mm f/11 lens. It’s the same angle of view and same subject so you still need 1/500s shutter speed but now your max aperture is only f/11. So your exposure setting is 1/500s, f/11.
To get the same image image brightness as the above scenario you now need an ISO of 1600.

1/500s, f/5.6 and ISO 400 on m43 will get you the same image quality as 1/500s, f/11, ISO 1600 on FF. The images taken from the two setups at the above setting will be identical with respective to noise, DOF, FOV, motion. In other words, the resultant images from both will be equivalent as long as sensor tech from both cameras are roughly equal. And most modern sensors are quite equal pound for pound from a sensor efficiency (QE) point of view.

In your original example, getting the Sony 70-200 with TC2 then cropping to APS-C technically beats the m43 combo (except very slightly less MP). But the price you pay is cost and more bulk. There’re no free lunches.
Also it ignores individual attributes of the lenses such as how well it works with TCs, bokeh quality, sharpness of each lens, how good the IS are, how much CA and other aberration the lens has etc.
 

In theory, your concept of equivalence may work that way.
In practice, if let say on M43, it is 1/500s, f6.7 and iSO 800.

On a FF camera like EOS 5D mk2 which I used,
F13.2 makes the Autofocus barely functional and
1/3200 has so much noise that it is definitely worse than a M43.

Sony has put in more powerful processor with noise reduction
algorithm on its A7R series and make its ISO3200 and 6400 more usable,
but I think the AutoFocus did slow down a little beyond F11.

So its not exactly equivalent, but it is not too far off in half the scenarios with
especially with brighter scenes.
 

In theory, your concept of equivalence may work that way.
In practice, if let say on M43, it is 1/500s, f6.7 and iSO 800.

On a FF camera like EOS 5D mk2 which I used,
F13.2 makes the Autofocus barely functional and
1/3200 has so much noise that it is definitely worse than a M43.

Sony has put in more powerful processor with noise reduction
algorithm on its A7R series and make its ISO3200 and 6400 more usable,
but I think the AutoFocus did slow down a little beyond F11.

So its not exactly equivalent, but it is not too far off in half the scenarios with
especially with brighter scenes.
That's why you must compare sensors of roughly equal generations, or more importantly the same QE (quantum efficiency). If you want to compare an original 5D too or something from 20 years ago, that's also your prerogative but it's not what equivalence is talking about.
You're also introducing another aspect that's outside of what equivalence is comparing, which is AF.
Equivalence compares the resultant image with respect to noise, DOF, AOV (or FOV) and motion.

And you're completely right with respect to AF with regards to the f-number. That f-number specifies the per/unit light gathering capability and that's what is important for AF purposes. You're also mixing apples and oranges by comparing how DSLR and mirrorless AF works. Yes, they're both methods of PDAF but they are completely different.
F/13 is technically unuseable on DSLRs because as far as I know the AF modules bottoms out at f/8 and tops out at f/2.8 for Canon DSLRs. For Nikons they don't use f/2.8 AF points and all AF are calculated at f/5.6 regardless of lens f-number because the AF modules have their own aperture openings set at f/5.6. Certain AF points work down to f/8 but beyond that neither Nikon nor Canon nor any other systems I know are guaranteed to work. That's why lenses for DSLRs generally are not slower than f/5.6. Notice how all the zooms are f/xx-f/5.6 with very few going slower than that except very long superzooms. Its also a reason why with TC combinations, photographers worry about the need to stay about f/8 for any TC combinations for the AF to work properly on DSLRs and even then, there are some limitations to AF modes because not all AF points work down to f/8.

With mirrorless AF it bottoms out much further, around f/11 for Canon's RF system I believe. That's also why you're starting to see zoom lenses for mirrorless have slower maximum f-numbers eg. 24-105 f/4-7.1. It has to do with how the AF system works.
Also AF detection range on mirrorless cameras are rated for a lens' f-number. Eg. -3EV for f/2 lenses. It means if you're using a f/1.4 lens your AF detection range technically goes to -4EV. Whereas on DSLRs it doesn't matter if you're using a f/1.4 or f/2.8 lens. The AF detection range stays the same because AF calculations are done at f/5.6 due to the aperture of the dedicated AF modules.

But back to equivalence, it's just science. It doesn't favour any formats but just keep in mind what it is comparing. If you're using a modern m43 camera like the E-M5III, use another modern FF for equivalence comparisons, preferably with the same sensor supplier. Because on top of camera generations, Canon sensors were behind the tech curve only until recently.
 

PS it has nothing to do with Sony doing NR at high ISOs to cook their results. They may do bits of this and that, maybe the 'star-eater' issue that some astrophotographers have raised. It has everything to do with the total surface area of FF which is 4X larger than m43 which translates to 2-stops.
 

WOW! That is very enlightening :)
Where did you get all this technical knowledge from?
Are you involved in Camera Sensor R&D?
 

Sadly no, but it is an area I have a lot of interest in.
I don't read much fiction but am a bit of a geek at heart so I brush up on technical knowledge and it's just stuff that's accumulated through the years.
There are some very knowledgeable ppl on certain forums. Dpreview, for example is often a horrible place but some experts post there, even the likes of Eric Fossum (the inventor of CMOS) occasionally.
But over the years, I've come to trust the writings of certain posters eg. Bobn2, Jim Kasson, Roger Cicala (lensrental), Bill Claff (photonstophotos), Iliah Borg (Rawdigger software), Brandon Dube, Marianne Oelund among others. They are scientists and engineers who are experts in their field but even among them I've seen a few humorous (to me) quibbles between themselves.
Just read with an open mind. Some of the info freely available out there are quite mind-blowing (at least to me). When I don't understand something, I've engaged some of these folks directly in the past before and they've mostly been very generous in sharing their knowledge, given how busy they must be.
I am by no means an expert at any of this but just passing on info where I see relevant.
 

I am left somewhere in the quantum realms. o_O This stuff is way over my knowledge grade.