What's the Law?


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lancey

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May 8, 2008
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#1
i encountered a strange case recently. I dropped my glasses on a public road one day and went back searching for it. As I was approaching to retrieve it, a 4-5 yr old boy approached it first, saw it and STAMPED his feet crushing it, on purpose. The parent of the kid was with him and so were other passerbys and they all saw it. The kid ran behind the father and the father kept quiet. They were tourists btw.

I approached the father and ask if he would pay for the damage or foot the optometrist bill for repair(it was found out it was beyond repair later). A new one costs $380.

Ok, so the father asked me to go to his hotel because he had no $ or passport as they were following a tour. He would not give me his name btw

There were 2 tour guides with them, one local and one foreign of the father's origin(the country from which i would not reveal). The local(spore) tour guide said "not my problem, u tok to him lor". The foreign tour guide gave me a vacant hotel room number by i managed to jot down his name tag. One tour member offered to pay me $4.

I called the police but they said "this is not police case" "u try toking to the hotel manager""we can't do anything"

i was thinking to myself, that's it. case close..

i went down to the hotel, left a message (together with the repair bill) to the foreign tour guide with his name and asked the manager to call me if and when she can get hold of the bunch.

Later that nite, the manager called me and said :" they say they r not responsible for the damage"

so i said thank u and had a good nite's sleep...knowing btw the bunch is flying off the next day..adios!

but then i woke up at 3am sweating and asked myself :" WHAT'S THE LAW?"

my next alternative is to start a civil case but then i dun even have the name of the child's father! The good news is i had a spare glasses at home but i had 5 hrs of blurred vision.
 

Del_CtrlnoAlt

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Feb 15, 2003
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#2
i encountered a strange case recently. I dropped my glasses on a public road one day and went back searching for it. As I was approaching to retrieve it, a 4-5 yr old boy approached it first, saw it and STAMPED his feet crushing it, on purpose. The parent of the kid was with him and so were other passerbys and they all saw it. The kid ran behind the father and the father kept quiet. They were tourists btw.

I approached the father and ask if he would pay for the damage or foot the optometrist bill for repair(it was found out it was beyond repair later). A new one costs $380.

Ok, so the father asked me to go to his hotel because he had no $ or passport as they were following a tour. He would not give me his name btw

There were 2 tour guides with them, one local and one foreign of the father's origin(the country from which i would not reveal). The local(spore) tour guide said "not my problem, u tok to him lor". The foreign tour guide gave me a vacant hotel room number by i managed to jot down his name tag. One tour member offered to pay me $4.

I called the police but they said "this is not police case" "u try toking to the hotel manager""we can't do anything"

i was thinking to myself, that's it. case close..

i went down to the hotel, left a message (together with the repair bill) to the foreign tour guide with his name and asked the manager to call me if and when she can get hold of the bunch.

Later that nite, the manager called me and said :" they say they r not responsible for the damage"

so i said thank u and had a good nite's sleep...knowing btw the bunch is flying off the next day..adios!

but then i woke up at 3am sweating and asked myself :" WHAT'S THE LAW?"

my next alternative is to start a civil case but then i dun even have the name of the child's father! The good news is i had a spare glasses at home but i had 5 hrs of blurred vision.
all i can say, suck thumb... just treat it like you have lost that pair.
 

headfonz

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Apr 6, 2006
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#5
Mischief - S425, Cap224
Whoever, with intent to cause, or knowing that he is likely to cause, wrongful loss or damage to the public or any person, causes the destruction of any property, or any such change in any property, or in the situation thereof, as destroys or diminishes its value or utility, or affects it injuriously, commits “mischief”.
Explanation 1.—It is not essential to the offence of mischief that the offender should intend to cause loss or damage to the owner of the property injured or destroyed. It is sufficient if he intends to cause, or knows that he is likely to cause, wrongful loss or damage to any person by injuring any property, whether it belongs to that person or not.
Explanation 2.—Mischief may be committed by an act affecting property belonging to the person who commits the act, or to that person and others jointly.

Punishment for committing mischief - S426, Cap224
Whoever commits mischief shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to one year, or with fine, or with both.

That said..

Act of a child under 7 years of age - S82, Cap224
Nothing is an offence which is done by a child under 7 years of age.
 

raptor1988

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Jul 19, 2006
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#6
so the boy being too young is under the law.. :think: how abt his dad? he din stop his son.

or we can take things in our own hands..

 

Del_CtrlnoAlt

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#7
so the boy being too young is under the law.. :think: how abt his dad? he din stop his son.

or we can take things in our own hands..

but its not like they went to the shopping centre which have a sign which says, once broken considered sold...

the dad probably think the kid is just stepping on some trash along the road.

the kid, being a kid, does not know the value of items on the floor... all things on floor are equal, only some are more equal than others cos they belong to someone else.
 

Tupi Guy

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Jan 6, 2003
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#8
i encountered a strange case recently. I dropped my glasses on a public road one day and went back searching for it. As I was approaching to retrieve it, a 4-5 yr old boy approached it first, saw it and STAMPED his feet crushing it, on purpose. The parent of the kid was with him and so were other passerbys and they all saw it. The kid ran behind the father and the father kept quiet. They were tourists btw.

I approached the father and ask if he would pay for the damage or foot the optometrist bill for repair(it was found out it was beyond repair later). A new one costs $380.

Ok, so the father asked me to go to his hotel because he had no $ or passport as they were following a tour. He would not give me his name btw

There were 2 tour guides with them, one local and one foreign of the father's origin(the country from which i would not reveal). The local(spore) tour guide said "not my problem, u tok to him lor". The foreign tour guide gave me a vacant hotel room number by i managed to jot down his name tag. One tour member offered to pay me $4.

I called the police but they said "this is not police case" "u try toking to the hotel manager""we can't do anything"

i was thinking to myself, that's it. case close..

i went down to the hotel, left a message (together with the repair bill) to the foreign tour guide with his name and asked the manager to call me if and when she can get hold of the bunch.

Later that nite, the manager called me and said :" they say they r not responsible for the damage"

so i said thank u and had a good nite's sleep...knowing btw the bunch is flying off the next day..adios!

but then i woke up at 3am sweating and asked myself :" WHAT'S THE LAW?"

my next alternative is to start a civil case but then i dun even have the name of the child's father! The good news is i had a spare glasses at home but i had 5 hrs of blurred vision.
Really what a luck to kana this kind of thing! At least u have home safely.
 

lancey

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May 8, 2008
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#9
It's not about the child. I dun blame the child. But as a parent, we must set good example to our children. The father should have offered an apology or an offer to send it for repair or leave a contact. Nothing. The whole bunch just walked off when i said I'll let the police mediate. It's about basic social responsibility and attitudes. And the attitude of the local tour guide was a total disgrace to our local tour industry.

"not my problem, u tok to him lor". This is the person who will guide u in a foreign country. This is the person that represents our country in our country.
 

Del_CtrlnoAlt

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#10
It's not about the child. I dun blame the child. But as a parent, we must set good example to our children. The father should have offered an apology or an offer to send it for repair or leave a contact. Nothing. The whole bunch just walked off when i said I'll let the police mediate. It's about basic social responsibility and attitudes. And the attitude of the local tour guide was a total disgrace to our local tour industry.

"not my problem, u tok to him lor". This is the person who will guide u in a foreign country. This is the person that represents our country in our country.
no harm knowing where they come from, but more or less i probably know already... esp when u said someone offered you 4 bucks... :bsmilie:
 

denniskee

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Oct 26, 2003
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#11
where law cant do anything, u can cross ur finger that the parents drop something $$$, than u step on it and walk off lor.
 

Astin

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#12
I have seen some Singapore kids much worse than that, and their parents turn a blind eye to their kids, even the kids run around and knock someone down, they just dont care.
 

Del_CtrlnoAlt

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#13
where law cant do anything, u can cross ur finger that the parents drop something $$$, than u step on it and walk off lor.
怨怨相报何时了?

so someone step on yours, u wait and bio to step on another person's one? trying to re-energize the recession also not like that lor...
 

V

vince123123

Guest
#14
As with most legal disputes, there are two fronts:

1. Criminal Liability - unfortunately for Singaporeans, the police, when faced with minor offences, invariably tells the public that "it is a civil offence"; even when it is a criminal offence.

Take a look at the provisions posted by headfonz - you can see clear criminal liability there. Of course there is the general exceptions for infancy - but trust me, the police are not aware of this when they tell you its a civli offence; it is merely their standard taichi.

I always advise people when calling the police, to have the criminal provisions at the ready. So that when the police say "its a civil offence", you can then say "no leh, it is a criminal offence, see Seciton XYZ of ABC Act". In which case they wlll probably change tack and now tell you "file a magistrate's complaint".

In any case, for your particular case, it may be harder since as headfonz has extracted, the defence of infancy will apply.

2. Civil Liability - in theory, you can sue for damage to property; but in my view, your glasses, being worth S$380, is not worth going to court over. Further, such cases fall outside the jurisdiction of the Small Claims Tribunal, and hence even that route is not avaialble to you.

3. Worsening Factors - if this situation was done by a local, I'll say that you alraedy have problems as outined above. It is now made worse by the fact that it is committed by a foreigner. After he leaves Singapore, you will face the added difficulty of extradition (for criminal liability) or service out of jurisdiction (for civil liabilities). Hence, your obstacle course just got made a whole lot bigger.

On balance, I will say that you pretty much are screwed, as some members have put it (although I have elaborated why in more detail above) and I'd say that your options for recourse are very limited, and most defnitely, not economically viable.

Unfortunately, that's the state of the law in Singapore - most small cases or small people are not protected.





i encountered a strange case recently. I dropped my glasses on a public road one day and went back searching for it. As I was approaching to retrieve it, a 4-5 yr old boy approached it first, saw it and STAMPED his feet crushing it, on purpose. The parent of the kid was with him and so were other passerbys and they all saw it. The kid ran behind the father and the father kept quiet. They were tourists btw.

I approached the father and ask if he would pay for the damage or foot the optometrist bill for repair(it was found out it was beyond repair later). A new one costs $380.

Ok, so the father asked me to go to his hotel because he had no $ or passport as they were following a tour. He would not give me his name btw

There were 2 tour guides with them, one local and one foreign of the father's origin(the country from which i would not reveal). The local(spore) tour guide said "not my problem, u tok to him lor". The foreign tour guide gave me a vacant hotel room number by i managed to jot down his name tag. One tour member offered to pay me $4.

I called the police but they said "this is not police case" "u try toking to the hotel manager""we can't do anything"

i was thinking to myself, that's it. case close..

i went down to the hotel, left a message (together with the repair bill) to the foreign tour guide with his name and asked the manager to call me if and when she can get hold of the bunch.

Later that nite, the manager called me and said :" they say they r not responsible for the damage"

so i said thank u and had a good nite's sleep...knowing btw the bunch is flying off the next day..adios!

but then i woke up at 3am sweating and asked myself :" WHAT'S THE LAW?"

my next alternative is to start a civil case but then i dun even have the name of the child's father! The good news is i had a spare glasses at home but i had 5 hrs of blurred vision.
 

Xtol19

New Member
Dec 13, 2008
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#15
Well, it's not a seizable offence, what do you expect the police to do?

As with most legal disputes, there are two fronts:

1. Criminal Liability - unfortunately for Singaporeans, the police, when faced with minor offences, invariably tells the public that "it is a civil offence"; even when it is a criminal offence.

Take a look at the provisions posted by headfonz - you can see clear criminal liability there. Of course there is the general exceptions for infancy - but trust me, the police are not aware of this when they tell you its a civli offence; it is merely their standard taichi.

I always advise people when calling the police, to have the criminal provisions at the ready. So that when the police say "its a civil offence", you can then say "no leh, it is a criminal offence, see Seciton XYZ of ABC Act". In which case they wlll probably change tack and now tell you "file a magistrate's complaint".

In any case, for your particular case, it may be harder since as headfonz has extracted, the defence of infancy will apply.

2. Civil Liability - in theory, you can sue for damage to property; but in my view, your glasses, being worth S$380, is not worth going to court over. Further, such cases fall outside the jurisdiction of the Small Claims Tribunal, and hence even that route is not avaialble to you.

3. Worsening Factors - if this situation was done by a local, I'll say that you alraedy have problems as outined above. It is now made worse by the fact that it is committed by a foreigner. After he leaves Singapore, you will face the added difficulty of extradition (for criminal liability) or service out of jurisdiction (for civil liabilities). Hence, your obstacle course just got made a whole lot bigger.

On balance, I will say that you pretty much are screwed, as some members have put it (although I have elaborated why in more detail above) and I'd say that your options for recourse are very limited, and most defnitely, not economically viable.

Unfortunately, that's the state of the law in Singapore - most small cases or small people are not protected.
 

V

vince123123

Guest
#16
For non-seizable offences, the police should advise the complainant to make a magistrates' complaint, and not say "its is a civil case" or "it is not a police case".

It is not a civil case.

After the magistrate's complaint, the magistrate may direct the police to investigate, at which point, it becomes a police case.

I'm just saying that the police are often, very clueless about the legal process.

Well, it's not a seizable offence, what do you expect the police to do?
 

luntut

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Oct 19, 2007
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#17
It's not about the child. I dun blame the child. But as a parent, we must set good example to our children. The father should have offered an apology or an offer to send it for repair or leave a contact. Nothing. The whole bunch just walked off when i said I'll let the police mediate. It's about basic social responsibility and attitudes. And the attitude of the local tour guide was a total disgrace to our local tour industry.

"not my problem, u tok to him lor". This is the person who will guide u in a foreign country. This is the person that represents our country in our country.
example?

plenty of parents nowadays let their kids run amok in public.. running around tight confined places, knocking down things and DONT EVEN BOTHER turning around to pick them up.. bang into people dun say sorry.. delibrate mischief in the watchful eyes of their parents, who just smile at them and whisper to their spouses how cute their kids are in doing so.....

seriously, dun blame the kid. blame on those dumb parents, whose education doesnt seem to help at all in enlightening them that those actions done are extremely wrong. my mum would have stripped me naked, strapped me to the water pipe outside my house and whipped the living daylights out of me, if i had done such things in the past (and she did exactly that to me before). I sure became a good boy after that.
 

lancey

Deregistered
May 8, 2008
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#18
The police did not mention anything about filing a magistrate's complaint. Yes i know im screwed but im just dissapointed with our current situation as far as basic civilian rights are concerned, not to mention the lack of basic human decency locally or otherwise.
 

Jan 20, 2009
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Singapore
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#19
i tink if its a kid who spoiled it, then u suck thumb liao.
if the parents argue they nvr see the moment their kid step on the spec, then u cannot fault them for not stopping it. they also don't hv to pay since they couldn't had stopped their kid.

yes the tour guide is simply :thumbsd: he shld at least try to mediate the situation ma.
 

V

vince123123

Guest
#20
These kids who run amok - if they ever run into me, I normally just (lightly) kick them aside :) I don't see any need to handle them with kids gloves since their parents are not even interested in their safety.

example?

plenty of parents nowadays let their kids run amok in public.. running around tight confined places, knocking down things and DONT EVEN BOTHER turning around to pick them up.. bang into people dun say sorry.. delibrate mischief in the watchful eyes of their parents, who just smile at them and whisper to their spouses how cute their kids are in doing so.....

seriously, dun blame the kid. blame on those dumb parents, whose education doesnt seem to help at all in enlightening them that those actions done are extremely wrong. my mum would have stripped me naked, strapped me to the water pipe outside my house and whipped the living daylights out of me, if i had done such things in the past (and she did exactly that to me before). I sure became a good boy after that.
 

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