WHATS NEXT FOR M43, after Olympus, what future is left?

[Pitachu]

I have Canon EF and EFS system and I dont find it practical to use EF lenses on EFS Cameras.
And same for my friend with Sony A7 and 6500.

Physically you can do it, but why would you pair a lenses meant for a larger body on a more compact one,
unless you are using the compact body as a back up.

eg. I would use a 18-135 lenses on my EOS 80D (which is pretty small).
THis is equal to about 24-200 on my FF EOS 5D.

But it is ridiculous to put a EF 16-35mm to get about 24-50 (although you can)
or a 24-105 lens which gives you 36 - 150mm? I find it hard to find a focal range
I am used to when I put my EF lenses on EF-S camera.

To me, there is no point having a 1-Mount system for different sensor size.

*cough Leica M9 2009, FF and mirrorless *cough
*cough Sigma fp.. it's tiny and FF *cough

Anyways, the 33MP 8K sensor in the Sharp implies it is in 16:9 for the m43 diagonal. So it'd only be suitable for other video m43 cameras rather than stills unless you don't mind shooting all your stills in 16:9 too.
But other 4:3 8K capable sensors exists eg. https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX492LLJ_LQJ_Flyer.pdf
This takes the pixel density way out in front equal to approx 164MP FF, 73MP 1.5X APS-C and even slightly more than the current 20MP 1" sensors. So m43 could maintain their niche pixel density advantage with such a sensor for applications such as macro's and wildlife.

As for Panasonic, reiterating what I wrote previously I think there's a good chance they might bring APS-C to L-mount.
It's just more economical if they're playing in more than one sensor format and more importantly their existing partners in the alliance already offer APS-C products for the L-mount.
But I can still see ways Panasonic m43 can progress, either via adapters or just co-developing identical cameras in both L and m43 mounts using the same APS-C sensor.

 

[swifty]

I have Canon EF and EFS system and I dont find it practical to use EF lenses on EFS Cameras.
And same for my friend with Sony A7 and 6500.

Physically you can do it, but why would you pair a lenses meant for a larger body on a more compact one,
unless you are using the compact body as a back up.

eg. I would use a 18-135 lenses on my EOS 80D (which is pretty small).
THis is equal to about 24-200 on my FF EOS 5D.

But it is ridiculous to put a EF 16-35mm to get about 24-50 (although you can)
or a 24-105 lens which gives you 36 - 150mm? I find it hard to find a focal range
I am used to when I put my EF lenses on EF-S camera.

To me, there is no point having a 1-Mount system for different sensor size.

For the consumer it’s more so for the telephoto ranges.
For telephoto lenses the bigger determinant of size is the actual focal length and f-number. Eg. a 300mm f/4 lens will be similar sized no matter if it’s built for m43 or FF (not counting special lens tech eg. Canon’s DO or Nikon’s PF elements).
I agree on the wider end it’s beneficial to have separate lineup for different format sizes especially for zooms.

For the manufacturer, I think there are cost advantages to maintaining less vs more mounts.
Generally there would also be less confusion about what lens is for what system and you do away with adapters.
That’s why I think Canon will default to RF Mount for APS-C, FF as well as moving their Cine line which might include other standards like Super35 to the same RF mount.

For Panasonic, like I said b4 there are other factors particularly the fact that their alliance partners already offer APS-C products in the same mount so they’re somewhat tied to APS-C one way or another. Otherwise I agree that m43 sensor size is a better spacer to FF.
In an ideal world I think m43 would be in L-mount with 2 format sizes spaced 2 stops apart.

 

[Pitachu]

What will happen to the Olympus brand is no longer relevant.

Olympus users now know that they can use their current equipment for at least the next 3 years.
In fact, telephoto shooters have rushed to buy the newly launched 100-400mm lenses (first batch sold out).
Any time longer is a bonus. And as long as the equipment is not dropped or malfunction, it will probably
last much longer.

By then, nobody can predict what happens.....
Canon may have done away with EOS-M and Pentax may call it a day too.....

For Current M43 users or even new M43 users, enjoy what we have at the moment if we
think M43 is the system most suitable for us..........

For me, FF is not for me and smaller formats like EOS-M has no guarantee that it will last
longer than M43.

What will become of the Olympus brand?

AK: Yes, our camera brand names such as "OM-D", "PEN, and "ZUIKO," will continue to be used. In terms of Olympus brand name, it is currently under discussion but there is no plan to stop the Olympus brand immediately after the transfer.

Observations:

Olympus brand name on camera and lens products will not immediately cease after transfer to JIP.
How long will it remain? 1 week or 1 month or 1 year?
Don't know.

In the longer term it may cease.
Just as the Vaio (Visual Audio Intelligent Organizer) computers now sold by JIP do NOT have the "Sony" brand name on it.
Likewise it is expected that Olympus will NOT allow JIP to use its main brand name "Olympus" on products made by JIP.
However sub-brand names like "OM-D", "PEN, and "ZUIKO" may be allowed to be used by JIP.

 

[Blu-By-U]

Why are you comparing Top of the range to a bottom of the range?

Entry level EM10 mark iv @ US 799 for a kit.

 

[swifty]

m43 has never really been considered mass-market. Ok.. at its peak (which was a bubble market frankly) it can probably be considered mass-market but m43 has always been a bit more niche. As long as they play to their strengths there will be niche buyers who like what they cater to. They may loose out in a general all-types-of-photography sense but targeted products should mean they do better at their targeted niche.

Some possible areas:
- High performance, high on features (all the bells and whistles) and high pixel density but they still need to find a way to keep a lid on the cost/price.
- Macro
- better heat dispersion for the same size body (becoming an issue as video specs advance)
- smaller IBIS mechanism for the same stabilisation performance leading to smaller bodies with good IBIS.
- videography
- Absolute system size. There's no advantage for equivalent gear but not everyone wants the FF equivalent or the fastest system possible so m43 can still cater for a smaller system on a practical basis.

 

[Pitachu]

This is not the first time ricohflex used the E-M1x to compare with budget DSLRs.
His intention and prejudice against M43 is clear.

The Canon new entry level Full Frame RF is targeted towards EM10 Mk4 users.
I won't be able to say which is better, I guess for me it still depends on lenses
and features avaiable and choose the one most suitable for me, if I am hunting
for a new camera.

But a few years ago, I did balked at the Canon RF system for their lack of lenses
even though their first few lenses and the body are damn good.

New trend in cameras - MUCH bigger sensor + MUCH cheaper priced entry level body

Olympus OM-D E-M1X introduced in February 2019 had a launch price tag of US$2,999

The Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark III price tag at launch in Feb 2020 was US$1,799

{Rumour only}
Canon new entry-level Full Frame EOS RF mount camera would be announced in 2021 with a price tag that comes in under US$999.

This is an incredibly smart thing to do. Most important factor is that it must be CHEAP.

Never mind if it does not have all the bells and whistles - like 20 frames per second.

It has potential to attract legions of consumers into the Full Frame RF mount system.

Sony and Nikon probably have roughly similar ideas.
Sony plans a very small and light Full Frame that may not be cheap. But it may be successful.

If Panasonic MFT bodies (GH series) continue to be big and expensive, they could be in trouble.

 

[ricohflex]

A correction on my post about the interview of Yosuke Yamane by by Dave Etchells.
Although the date of the Publishing of the interview was 20 Aug 2020.
The actual interview was conducted in March 2020. (He said so in the article). Most likely 25 March 2020.

But why would a reporter hedge an interview for so long and only much later publish it?
Have to ask David Etchells. We cannot read his mind and know what was his motive.

The timing has significance.
If you did not read the details, and just roughly browse the main items, you would have gotten the assumed impression.
That Panasonic director Yosuke Yamane has the opinions stated about MFT in that March 2020 interview --- AFTER 24 Jun 2020.

The truth is Panasonic's stance and mindset about MFT after 24 Jun 2020 is NOT known.

 

[one eye jack]

Sony is helping consumers to break out of their mental prison - that full frame must always be big and heavy.

Dear Ricohflex,
Sorry to say you are mistaken, back in film days Olympus and Pentax were the champions of miniturisation of 35mm full frame cameras. In fact Olympus based their marketing on the idea so did Pentax.

I know you feel passionately about digital fullframe but back in filmdays you were not considered a professional if you did not use a medium format camera ala 6X6 cm and it's variants. The more pro use 4X5 and 8X10 in. In fact during the rise of cinema during the 1930s 8X10 was the industry standard.That is why you can't really replicate the look of the photographs taken then. Just imagine the size of the film negative even medium format is no fight!

Let's be rational people have money despite the merits of fullframe the overriding criteria is convenience so the smartphone camera is king for the masses but for serious amateur photographers there are formats that suit particular genres of photography. If you asked me, if one is serious about shooting portraits I would recommend going fullframe for obvious reasons of dreamy or shallow depth of field which can be done in certain situations using smaller apsc or m43 cameras. Only knowledge and skill is needed. Please remember during film days everybody is using fullframe 35mm. Why? Because that's what the industry produces for the common people as film was the only technology AND the processing and printing was done by industry standard machines and format of the common print sizes that most people wanted and could afford which was the ubiquitous 3 or 5R size prints.

Coming back to digital I would say amateur photograpers have many options which suit their budgets and the type of photography they want to shoot. Just enjoy what market offers, no need to pigeon hole what is better or what which bring me to offer an amusing story of video recorders which was won by Panasonic because it was the first mover in intoducing it's VHS tape format although SONY later introduced it's much superior quality sony betamax tape format but unfortunately the US consumer had already plenty of panasonic recorders in their home who did not want to spend money on another system even if it offered better quality viewing on their tv set. So there sometime the manufacturer that does things first gets the marketing advantage. Personally all the attention on gear does not make one a better photograher but it helps I admit when technology improves that help the photographic situational needs.

Edit: Oh I forgot to mention that the first film camera that was used on the moon was a specially
modified medium format 6X6 Hasselblad. Do you think a heavily gloved hand of a astronuat can easily manipulate a 35mm leica even if it is superior in photographic quality?

 

[ricohflex]

Two companies that had the vision and guts to make a small SLR camera body and yet be able to handle the full 36x24mm frame, in the film era.
Unfortunately in the digital era, they seem to have lost their panache.
Unable to make a small Full Frame ILC mirrorless digital camera.

Credit for image : imagingpixel.com

Credit for image : commons.wikimedia.ord

 

[Pitachu]

To bring back the subject of this thread.....

Interview with JIP manager: We will mantain the Olympus brand and focus on video and high end business – 43 Rumors

www.43rumors.com

 

[one eye jack]

As always one has to read between the lines. Tokyo kezai is equivalent to our local business times. It would indicate that JIP is confident of it's takeover citing JIP has not lost money with 30 investments before Olympus but this is like saying Warren Buffet has not made a bad investment. On the optimistic side JIP wants to " revive" Olympus by retaining the brand name unlike sony's PC business.

Leveraging on Olympus' unique technologies and using the Vietnam manufacturing facility JIP plans to revamp Olympus brand by adding a new videocentric emphasis which olympus did not have or concentrated before. JIP plans to introduce consumer video and business products like surveillance cameras. It said MFT will not be abandoned which means it will take on Panasonic GH series cameras or at least use MFT sensors in consumer video cameras. There is a cautionary reminder by Mr. Hewlett of HP during it's early startup when he said " Do not take on an industry big boy incumbent (refering to an american electronic instrumentation company ) as you will lose." Fortunately HP prevailed and went on diversifying into the PC business.

With regards to sourcing talent from Olympus itself talks are underway so are the new products already slated for market which JIP said they will not abandon olympus overseas market mainly in europe and not US which has been bitching about olympus..haha. All the best to JIP I certainly wish them success but JIP are hard headed business people which I have no doubt that said they hope to make profit in their first year of takeover.

Applause!!! My own take is they really need a smart and photographic visionary (yes a pun) to take Olympus forward.

 

[ricohflex]

Panasonic is a giant conglomerate and its camera business is a tiny part of its overall enterprise.

One could say that Panasonic does not depend on its camera business to survive as a corporation.

However, each subsidiary or sub-component company within Panasonic still has to account for its financial performance, within the enterprise.

In that light, it has been reported that Panasonic Camera Business is not doing well in 2020.

Uh oh! After Olympus was sold only a few months ago, could Panasonic be next?

Apparently Panasonic is considering restructuring its camera business after a loss of 2.5 billion yen from April–June

www.digitalcameraworld.com

According to estimates by Ryusuke Katsura, the senior analyst at SMBC Nikko Securities, Panasonic's camera business had a loss of 2.5 billion yen in the period of April–June 2020, which is approximately US$23,544,812.

That is a loss of US$23 Million in 1 Quarter.
If this is consistent for the whole year that means a loss of 4 x US$23 Million = US$92 Million.

Can Panasonic's camera business continue to lose tons of money for many years?
The answer is Yes.
Because its parent company is mega rich.

But does the Panasonic parent company want to allow this situation to persist?

Does this mean that Panasonic L mount full frame mirrorless cameras (lousy autofocus) are not selling well?

Does this mean that Panasonic MFT mirrorless cameras are not in favour anymore with consumers?

Panasonic has been silent on its attitude to MFT after 24 Jun 2020.

Although some articles (with dubious headline titles) have been published (based on outdated interviews done 5 months ago) to give the false impression that Panasonic has declared (AFTER 24 Jun 2020) it will never give up MFT.

 

[Pitachu]

That is a loss of US$23 Million in 1 Quarter.
If this is consistent for the whole year that means a loss of 4 x US$23 Million = US$92 Million.
>>> This is peanuts. In the fiscal year of 2020, Panasonic's sales revenue came to around 70.4 billion U.S. dollars (or 7.5 trillion Japanese yen), a decrease of five billion U.S. dollars compared to the previous year.

Can Panasonic's camera business continue to lose tons of money for many years?
The answer is Yes.Because its parent company is mega rich.
But does the Panasonic parent company want to allow this situation to persist?
>>> Of course not....but having build the Panasonic Imaging Business for a number of years,
Panasonic should hold on thru this pandemic and see how the business go in a few years time.

Does this mean that Panasonic L mount full frame mirrorless cameras (lousy autofocus) are not selling well?
>>> Maybe, but this can be easily resolved if they want to, by adapting another AF system. But I heard that their DFD is actually better for videos.

Does this mean that Panasonic MFT mirrorless cameras are not in favour anymore with consumers?
>>> Nope, but it is a niche market, mainly vidoegraphers.

Panasonic has been silent on its attitude to MFT after 24 Jun 2020.
>>> Of course, times are uncertain and every company is now on a Wait & See situation.

Although some articles (with dubious headline titles) have been published (based on outdated interviews done 5 months ago) to give the false impression that Panasonic has declared (AFTER 24 Jun 2020) it will never give up MFT.
>>> As long as there are enough sales to cover costs, I dont think there is a need to give up MFT.

 

[Pitachu]

Panasonic made a name for itself with the GH series for M43 in the video world because it was a blue ocean years ago.

Panasonic is still struggling to establish itself in the Full Frame World.

No one can predict the future. It is sad that M43 was caught in between small formats of Mobile Phones and larger formats,
although for those of use who love the format, there are not enough users like us.

If Panasonic is being pressured to shift to the APS format, it does not mean that it is easy sailing.
Fujifilm, Sony, Canon and Nikon already has tons of Camera bodies and lenses to entice users.
Panasonic really has to think of something special.

Panasonic should come out with a new APS-L line to test market first before dropping its cash cow GH series.

At last it seems the big ship is changing its course. To avoid slamming into the obvious iceberg.

Panasonic might change their mind and do APS-C L-mount cameras afterall – 43 Rumors

www.43rumors.com

Panasonic may actually be considering APS-C L Mount cameras - DIY Photography

Well, this is interesting… and odd. According to a report on 43Rumors, Panasonic is actually considering an entry-level APS-C camera system based around the Panasonic L-Mount. This would be a big concern for a lot of existing Panasonic (and Olympus) customers who’ve locked themselves into the...

www.diyphotography.net

I have always wondered about CEOs of subsidiary companies, who were happy to lose many millions of $ of other people's money for years, by clinging on to their vanity pet projects.

Well it would be a different story if those obstinate CEOs were to lose that kind of money out of their own pockets.

A doting and forgiving parent company tolerates this lavish squandering of money - for years.

But even doting parent companies have a limit to their patience, in the face of a sea of red ink and angry protests from powerful big stake shareholders.

On 24 Jun 2020, Olympus parent company said enough is enough, to its Camera Division CEO.

Now Panasonic is learning from the mistake by Olympus.

 

[Pitachu]

This is a more logical business decision.

Panasonic can continue to venture into other formats like Canon on the M-Series.
But it should retain its strengths for the time being.

Panasonic director says “we will continue to develop products for Micro Four Thirds” – 43 Rumors

www.43rumors.com

 

[ricohflex]

Sony shows Full Frame can be small and light. (same size as 6600 body). A bit costly for a start. Prices may drop after a while.

Rumour only - Canon plans a Full-Frame EOS R Camera costing below US$1,000.

For Olympus it is a moot point after 24 Jun 2020.
The attitude is "Not my problem anymore - I don't care" since it threw in the towel and gave up.

For Panasonic - more reason to be silent on whether to continue making MFT equipment.
No need to commit the company, after 24 Jun 2020.
If Panasonic announces introduction of APS-C camera body, then the answer is known.

 

[Pitachu]

The Sony 7c is a good camera if all you want is to use the 28-60mm F4.0-5.6 kit lens and use it like an advanced point and shoot.
The moment you attach other Sony FE lenses on it, it is no longer a light weight system.

Don't keep focusing on size and weight of FF camera bodies, forgetting that you need to pair it with lenses as well
Medium Format Lenses are always larger and heavier than FF lenses and
FF lenses are always larger and heavier than M43 lenses (law of physics)

The difference in body weight between FF and M43 may only be 100-200 grams
but the difference in size and weight of their lenses can be a few times more!
A Sony 90mm Macro Lenses weights 602g and is 8.2" long.
A Panasonic 90mm equivalent Macro lens weigh 250g and is only 2.5" long.
Is the Sony 7C system still as portable when you need to bring an extra 1 or 2 lenses
on an Outdoor Trip?

I am not against Full Frame systems. By all means go for a FF System if you really need
the extra resolution and dynamic range. But do yourself justice,
get the A7 Mk3 or Mk4, plus invest in their superb G-Master or Zeiss Sonnar series.

Don't delude yourself and talk about some small size range finder full frames cameras
with a kit lenses and think that it is a cheaper and much superior portable system than M43.

Sony shows Full Frame can be small and light. (same size as 6600 body). A bit costly for a start. Prices may drop after a while.

Rumour only - Canon plans a Full-Frame EOS R Camera costing below US$1,000.

For Olympus it is a moot point after 24 Jun 2020.
The attitude is "Not my problem anymore - I don't care" since it threw in the towel and gave up.

For Panasonic - more reason to be silent on whether to continue making MFT equipment.
No need to commit the company, after 24 Jun 2020.
If Panasonic announces introduction of APS-C camera body, then the answer is known.

 

[Pitachu]

It's interesting that the latest Sony 7c copied the Panasonic GX7 (released in 2013).
As mentioned in my earlier post, once you starting using Sony huge FE lenses on it,
it will not not be the same lightweight portable system like the Panasonic GX series
with is M43 lenses.

New Sony A7c looks pretty close to the Panasonic GX7 – 43 Rumors

www.43rumors.com

 

[JW73]

It’s good that Sony is bringing out “new” concept.

Small digital ff concept was there many years back with RX1. But it is a fixed 35mm lens.

If Sony new FF A7C system (we talk abt system when talking about interchangable lens cameras) wants to remain small, they can bring out more prime lenses . Just like the old film days. If still using the same FF tele -zooms (<f5.6), the size saving will not be significant unless they want to come out lenses like 600mm f11 or f8 just like Canon did.

M43 has 100+ lenses (if I am not wrong) in the system. The future new development will be slow (IMHO, due to covid & falling in sales for ALL cameras brands ) but I feel m43 will still have a share in the photography /Video world. Remember to buy what you need and intend to do with the system.

 

[JW73]

What‘s so scary about MFT that Sony is so desperately wants to kill off? Any facts to it?

There are stronger competitors out there.