WHATS NEXT FOR M43, after Olympus, what future is left?


ricohflex

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2005
3,629
38
48
sing
As promised, the video link is deleted, after a short while.

Nothing bad about the possibility that Sony A7c may supersede the market for MFT. The A7c being Full Frame and yet so small and light.

This is in the ordinary course of events in product development.
Where one product supersedes another.

Just as when 3½ inch floppy disks were introduced, it superseded the market for 5¼ inch floppy disks.

Just as when transistor radios were introduced, it superseded the market for valve tube radios.

Just as when Compact Discs were introduced, it superseded the market for cassette tapes.

All this is normal.
It is called progress.
 

Last edited:

Pitachu

Member
Sep 18, 2019
208
19
18
54
Looks like Panasonic is going to adopt a Multi Prong approach like Sony.
Panasonic released the S5 for Full Frame, the G100 and probably GH6 for M43
and rumored that it is also venturing into APS-C.

But in the near future, there is no reason why Panasonic will stop the M43 line.
It has already been reported that the G100 sales is encouraging and there is
a lot of pent up demand for the GH6.
 

swifty

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2004
612
23
18
davophoto.wordpress.com
Still rather expensive although pricing for FF are definitely coming down.
Don't get me wrong, Sony cameras are the masters of miniaturization. You just have to look at the RX100 series as examples but it all comes at a price.

M43 has had combo's like the GX9 (or something similar) with eg. a 20mm f/1.7 or 14mm f/2.5 for a long time and for absolute size, what's there to challenge it? You can use GM1 if you want something absolutely tiny, too tiny IMO but unfortunately Panasonic has discontinued the GM series.

Sure you can now have a A7c and the smallest FE lens I could find is the Zeiss 35mm f/2.8 which isn't much bigger whilst faster (after equivalency) but what's the cost? Well it's $800USD for the Zeiss 35mm f/2.8 so it'll still set you back considerably more for the combo. But of course there may be cheaper options that I'd happily consider except I'm not that familiar with the FE system.

And this is nothing new in FF BTW. We've had the Sigma fp with a 45mm f/2.8 for almost a year now.
Probably the best deal recently was (is?) when the S5 was launched with a free 45mm f/2.8 when you pre-ordered but I think this deal was only in the US.

Even as FF prices are coming down (likely due to better yields on those FF sensors), they'll still command a price premium over other smaller formats. It has to unless you believe FF sensor prices will drop so low as to become an irrelevant cost of componentry. So a market will always exist below FF.
If you believe that FF prices can drop this low, then all the FF makers bet wrong and should've gone small medium format, like Fujifilm.
 

Castor Troy

Member
Oct 28, 2009
421
4
18
Possible the Oly 17mm f1.2 & 25mm f.95 Voltlander (not really a fair equivalents as this is a manual lens) .
The sizes are also bigger with the m43 lenses
 

JW73

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2003
1,325
5
38
46
Singapore
www.pbase.com
The sizes are also bigger with the m43 lenses
Agreed. In term of equivalent of amount of light to let in, there are smaller lenses (w same aperture) from m43 .But in terms of depth of field equivalent, the lenses are bigger(like the ones i mentioned).:)


Most M43 users I believed know what we are getting. If looking for great creamy background or shooting in worst lighting, FF system anytime:) But m43 system not too bad either with the suitable setup:)
 

Last edited:

Pitachu

Member
Sep 18, 2019
208
19
18
54
Yeah, to be as portable as M43, you need to pair the Sony 7c with the 35mm or 50mm prime lenses
or the Kit Lens 28-60mm F4.0 to 5.6. Sony is aware of its shortcomings ant that is why this new kit
lens is introduced. This may work for a lot of casual photographers.

The Sony 7C as a FF system, do offer slightly better resolution, dynamic range and noise levels,
but it cannot be as portable the moment you need to pair with various lenses.

For photographers like myself who lit to fit an appropriate lens for various types of photographer,
eg. Fisheye, Macro, Tele etc and remain lightweight and portable, we are better off with a M43 system.
 

  • Like
Reactions: JW73

swifty

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2004
612
23
18
davophoto.wordpress.com
Indeed once you factor in equivalence, to get to the same portability as m43 you'd be using some fairly slow lenses in FF.
So you'd have to ask yourself why am I paying more to have the same portability as m43, after factoring in equivalence.
The answer of course is, you wouldn't unless you're already in that FF system and you were looking to have some portability options and you don't want to pay for another new system.

For m43 owners it won't make any sense to pay more for largely the same. So if m43 already delivers adequate performance, there's no advantages to switching to FF. Many (most?) m43 owners understand this.
Similarly there are those that like to use the extreme examples in m43 as illustrations of m43's failings eg. the f/1.2 Olympus primes or the E-M1X. These are not products to entice other system users into m43. These are products for m43 users as options so they don't have to purchase another system.
Of course, if your primary uses are at the extremes of m43, you'd have to ask youself if m43 is the right choice for you and the answer is likely no.
 

  • Like
Reactions: JW73

ricohflex

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2005
3,629
38
48
sing
When you look at the Sony A7c, who does it remind you of?

The legendary designer Yoshihisa Maitani.

Does Olympus have the engineering capabilities to make a small size Full Frame mirrorless ILC camera before 2020 - if they wanted to?
Of course.

So why did Olympus not do it and ended up having to Transfer its Camera Division to JIP?

This is the importance of having the right leader in charge.

Olympus camera division CEO was fixated in his vain pot obsession to MFT.
He ignored humongous financial losses for many years and abdicated his responsibility to his thousands of employees.

This is wrong on so many levels.

Sony A7c is physical proof of what might have been, if Olympus Camera Division had a different leader.

Things may have turned out differently.

It is a crystallization of what Olympus was capable of; and should have done.
 

Pitachu

Member
Sep 18, 2019
208
19
18
54
As someone who have started from using film camera with 35mm and medium format, having used Nikon, Canon, Fujifilm, Sony and Olympus DSLR, I dont think the Sony A7c as a camera that Olympus should have designed instead of its M43 system.

As mentioned in my previous post, currently Sony is not even able to provide FF lenses that are as small as M43 lenses and have to specially design a 28-60mm F4-5.6 kit lenses to make the system look small enough to be compared to a M43 system. And probably 2 small primes 35mm and 50mm.

The moment you want to upgrade to something better eg. a 2.8 zoom lens or a telephoto lenses, you find that the portability is not there anymore,
and you will be disappointed you did not choose a more capable A7r3 or choose a more portable system like M43.

I dont think it's possible for any manufacturers to design FF lenses that match the range, size and weight of M43 lenses (law of physics).

Full frame does offer higher resolution, better dynamic range and noise levels, but it is not very often you can strength beyond the slightly smaller envelope provided by M43. Just look at all the photos taken by professionals using the M43. They are definitely more than acceptable to most people.

M43 are probably for users who prioritize portability over the slightly larger envelope of Full Frame. And I think Olympus and Panasonic made the right choice at that time. There is really no reason to believe that they would have done much better had they chosen to produce APS or FF instead.

When you look at the Sony A7c, who does it remind you of?

The legendary designer Yoshihisa Maitani.

Does Olympus have the engineering capabilities to make a small size Full Frame mirrorless ILC camera before 2020 - if they wanted to?
Of course.

So why did Olympus not do it and ended up having to Transfer its Camera Division to JIP?

This is the importance of having the right leader in charge.

Olympus camera division CEO was fixated in his vain pot obsession to MFT.
He ignored humongous financial losses for many years and abdicated his responsibility to his thousands of employees.

This is wrong on so many levels.

Sony A7c is physical proof of what might have been, if Olympus Camera Division had a different leader.

Things may have turned out differently.

It is a crystallization of what Olympus was capable of; and should have done.
 

Last edited:

ricohflex

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2005
3,629
38
48
sing
Quote from casualphotofile.com in an article about Maitani

Quote{
He fought for over a year to convince those in the sales and manufacturing departments that Olympus needed to not only build their own full-frame SLR, but to also build a type of SLR that no one had ever built before; a tiny SLR that sacrificed none of the durability or capability of the competition’s bulky and heavy professional SLRs.
}EndQuote

That was in 1967 when Maitani started designing the OM-1. By 1972 Maitani produced a masterpiece. The camera was initially named Olympus M-1.(The M refers to Maitani). Later renamed OM-1 after protests from Leica because their cameras were named M1 (made in 1959), M2, M3, M4, etc....

In 1967 Olympus already insisted upon FULL FRAME. Even in the film era days.

From 2008, the Camera Division has by adopting the MFT format, strayed away from the true design spirit of Olympus as espoused by Maitani.

And by 24 Jun 2020, Olympus Camera Division has paid the ultimate price for this mistake.

A company's top management's core responsibility is to ensure the business is viable.
So that its thousands of employees continue to have a job.


A Camera Division CEO cannot cling blindly to his personal vain pot obsession over MFT - and in the process sacrifice the futures of all his thousands of employees.

This is very irresponsible.

Olympus Camera Division employees are now at the mercy of a business restructuring organisation JIP.
They may be retrenched as part of the "restructuring exercise" and unable to provide for their families.
 

Last edited:

Pitachu

Member
Sep 18, 2019
208
19
18
54
I don't think you should attribute Olympus decision to sell the Imaging division to JIP is due to the wrong decision of its CEO. Globally, camera sales has declined.
Just look at Nikon for example. https://fstoppers.com/news/nikon-just-released-some-terrible-financial-results-427040

If Olympus had followed Nikon footsteps, it will probably still suffer the same fate or worse, as Nikon was more established.

Compared to the smaller format V1 which Nikon tried to come up with, M43 is immensely successful.

So far, I think Olympus has done a very good job by continuing to release all the updates promised and found a good potential partner JIP to take over instead of leaving its users in the lurge. Both Olympus and JIP are seriously looking at riding thru this pandemic reviving the M43 market.

I started photography more than 30 years ago, mainly using Nikon and Canons . Although I am aware of Olympus at that time, it never got me interested. It is only when Olympus introduce Micro 4/3s that I start to consider it as a viable portable travel camera system. Had Olympus continued with Full Frame, I don't think it will ever be able to sell me another camera body with 6 to 7 lenses :)


From 2008, the Camera Division has by adopting the MFT format, strayed away from the true design spirit of Olympus as espoused by Maitani.

And by 24 Jun 2020, Olympus Camera Division has paid the ultimate price for this mistake.

A company's top management's core responsibility is to ensure the business is viable.
So that its thousands of employees continue to have a job.


A Camera Divsion CEO cannot cling blindly to his personal vain pot obsession over MFT - and in the process sacrifice the futures of all his thousands of employees.

This is very irresponsible.

Olympus Camera Divsion employees are now at the mercy of a business restructuring organisation JIP.
They may be retrenched as part of the "restructuring exercise" and unable to provide for their families.
 

Blu-By-U

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2006
1,703
13
38
Selangor D.E.
Still don't understand why @Richoflex is still here promoting Sony. Please go to the Sony thread and promote it there.

We all know that Oly is signing away the Imaging division. We also know Panny is toying with the idea of going APS-C. Micro Fourthird is not Olympus and Panasonic only. There are other manufacturers.
 

JW73

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2003
1,325
5
38
46
Singapore
www.pbase.com
APS_C(1.5x-1.6x)or APS_H (1,3X)or 4/3 (2X) sensors were developed during the early days of DSLRs when FF sensor was too expensive for consumers. Remember the Nikon D1 series, they started w 1.5x crop sensors. Or D30 from Canon (1st affordable DSLR). These cameras can continue to use the SLR era lenses but with cropped factor.

M4/3 is a continued effort from the 4/3 sensors cameras. 4/3 cameras and lenses are developed from ground-up (digital format) and not linked to 35mm film (FF) SLR mount. Today‘s OM-D is just a shell on OM design. The core is still overall mobility with great image/video quality.

There are no crop factor actually w 43 sensor and lens. (20 yrs of debate already) .Just like the Fuji system. And mirrorless was born with m43! Imagine in 2008 they abandon 4/3 camera users and go FF or APS-c. It is a sensible thing to do all this while.

That time Nikon or Canon was the king with DSLR models. M43 manage to differentiate themselves from the rest.Panasonic had only 2 models of 4/3 cameras. But now with m43 mirrorless, panny has a whole range of models with 100+ m43 lenses. With Fuji retro look and new mounts (great lenses too) coming in, the mirrorless market nowadays are really competitive. Business Decisions are not easy.
 

Last edited:

ricohflex

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2005
3,629
38
48
sing
Recently witnessed someone trying to sell his used Olympus MFT camera and lenses to second hand shop.

He was politely informed that they no longer accept Olympus items.

Did not I predict this soon after 24 Jun 2020?

That if a user of Olympus MFT had made up his mind to sell his MFT gear, then better do it very fast after 24 Jun 2020 - (within 1 month).

Don't wait.

Because after a short while, even second hand dealer shops will reject Olympus MFT items.

And that is precisely what happened a few days ago in mid-Sep 2020.
I personally witnessed it.
I told you so.

In this current economic downturn, it is very hard to find takers for Olympus MFT camera/lenses. Worse if they are second hand.
That is only natural.
How can we expect buyers to part with their hard earned money in times of economic hardship to buy MFT cameras and lenses that have been abandoned by its own manufacturer, Olympus after 24 Jun2020.

There is perhaps a small hard core group in the second hand market for it. Who insist Olympus MFT is excellent.
Good for them. They are entitled to their opinion.

As the weeks, months and years pass by 2020, 2021...2030, the features/capabilities/sensor size gap between the latest new cameras and the pre-24Jun2020 MFT cameras will widen.

That is, the value of MFT can only go downhill over the years after 2020. This fact cannot be disputed.

And if Panasonic later on, shows signs that it will concentrate most of its effort/budget on L mount cameras and lenses after 24 Jun 2020; while preferring not to talk about MFT.

Then there will be another very steep fall in the prices of MFT, both new and used (second hand).

Wait, monitor and see what happens.
 

Last edited:

JW73

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2003
1,325
5
38
46
Singapore
www.pbase.com
I got the same reply from 2nd hand shop recently when I try to sell my old Nikon DSLR & lens. What’s new?

It’s their tactic to buy low then sell abit higher.(business is business) For some older models they ask u to put there and see..it’s called consignment. Heard of that before? The 2nd hand shops will advise you to sell at Clubsnap or Carosell if that models (regardless of brand) has no demand (local or overseas).

WHy do you target M43 only?

When Minolta (konica minolta DLSLR) was really gone, the lenses are still selling in shops before Sony took over years later. Why do you intentionally spread fear?

There are some FF owners who still want m43 as a backup or lighter choice. Some owns 2 to 3 system format. Some will just find m43 system is good enough for their needs and pocket.

Tell me which equipment goes up in value?

What’s your objective of the post , I am really not sure.

If you ask people to sell, who is going to buy? Pls verify!
 

Last edited:

Pitachu

Member
Sep 18, 2019
208
19
18
54
Just for your info, my brother is also having problem to sell off his Fujifilm XT2 with lenses
and another colleague trying to sell off his Canon 70D. Camera 2nd hand shops are very hesitant
to buy in some more used cameras now, as no one is traveling and photographers are having
very few jobs. The 2nd Hand shops are now stuck with huge inventory. They may only take in
very popular new models if you sell them at a heart breaking price.

I think generally you will not be able to sell anything to used camera shops unless
you buy back another camera from them and top up cash.

Just have to wait till the Pandemic is over, travelling and photo shoots can resume. :)

P.s. It will be nice if Ricohflex stop distorting facts and twist every bit of news against M43.
 

ricohflex

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2005
3,629
38
48
sing
Panasonic will undergo Structural Reform.
Will delete video link after a few days.

{As promised, the video link is deleted, after a short while.}

Some old news from few days ago. Something is rumbling at Panasonic. But the parent company is so big.
Maybe they mean only the Panasonic Imaging Business Unit will undergo structural reform.

Structural Reform is ominous.
It can mean some people lose their current positions or one particular division now reports to another.

After the reform, the previous slate is wiped clean.
Otherwise, why call it "reform"?

Maybe Including wiping away their past assertions that Panasonic will continue with MFT.
Meaning Panasonic may concentrate on L mount.

If they release GH6, sell it, since they already manufactured it and the stock is in the warehouse.
But it will be the last of the Mohicans and not much hope is placed on it.
Then allow MFT to dissipate quietly.
No need for Panasonic to make dramatic announcements.

But it would be great if GH6 was built with an APS-C sensor and with L mount.

Quote some statistics (Credit: Petapixel.com)

Quote {

Of the 8.66 million interchangeable lens cameras shipped last year, here’s the number shipped out by each company:

Canon: 4.16 million
Nikon: 1.73 million
Sony: 1.66 million
Fujifilm: 500,000
Olympus: 330,000
Others: 280,000

Of those cameras, 3.94 million were mirrorless cameras, or about 46%. Here’s how many mirrorless cameras the top brands shipped:

Sony: 1.65 million
Canon: 940,000
Fujifilm: 500,000
Olympus: 330,000
Nikon: 280,000
Others: 240,000

} EndQuote

Notice something? Where is Panasonic?
Included under "Others".
No wonder Panasonic needs to do Structural Reform.

Olympus did an ultimate drastic {cut & cut cleanly} approach. They hive off Camera Division to JIP.
Strictly no nonsense this time by Olympus parent company on 24 Jun 2020.
Figuratively it is [ 推出午门斩首 ] for its Olympus Camera Division.
The parent company's generosity has run out.
 

Last edited:

swifty

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2004
612
23
18
davophoto.wordpress.com
Other mirrorless ILC includes Panasonic, Leica, Sigma, Hasselblad, Phase One.
Wanna take a Guess how many units Leica+Sigma+Hasselblad+Phase One make up? Not much.
Panasonic will make up the majority of that 240000 units and wanna take a guess what’s the proportion of L-mount:m43?

Now let’s see, a well established system still with some volume sales as well as a major participant in the video centric ILC market (one of the few markets still growing).
The other being a new system requiring very large development costs.
What’s the bet m43 is supporting Panasonic’s entire FF/L-mount efforts.
 

Pitachu

Member
Sep 18, 2019
208
19
18
54
I think it is too premature to think that Panasonic will stop making any M43 cameras after GH6.

Panasonic has not even been able to establish 10% of its number of users for its FF cameras with L-mount
compared to the number of users it had with its M43.

It is not likely that Panasonic will drop its FF and M43 and pursue the APS-L mount.

Restructuring is streamlining it's product range to the more profitable ones and
outsource its manufacturing as it is unlikely that any camera factory are fully
utilized 24hrs nowaways (due to pandemic and world wide trend).

Like inkjet and laser printers where various brands are being manufactured
by a few factories, in time to come, it will only be viable for all camera brands
to be manufactured the same way too.

Don't keep frightening yourself and others on all these news.
If you already have a camera, continue to shoot and enjoy.
If you are new and looking for one, even if you end up buying an item announced to be discontinued,
eg. Olympus Pen-F, I am quite sure you will still have 3 to 5 good years with it.

And even if you go for for the Canon EF-M series, there is no guarantee that Canon will not
drop it after 3 to 5 years like Nikon dropped the V1 or Sony dropping its A-series.