WHATS NEXT FOR M43, after Olympus, what future is left?


Castor Troy

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Oct 28, 2009
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I personally know a Photographer who take wedding shots with Olympus M43.
His shots are definitely not blur, plasticity or full of invasive noise as he is quite
sought after despite charging a premium price.

You should check the settings on your M43 camera and the lighting. If still in doubt,
I can bring you along to one of Olympus Portrait workshops, where the Course
Leader who owns a Wedding Studio, shows you how he take his shots.

Olympus dont restrict other brands being used during their future workshops
so you can shoot with your Sony or whatever brand to compare.
I’ll take up your kind offer once Covid is over and physical workshops are allowed to resume.
Thanks.

Don’t get me wrong.
I still love my EM1 setup with the 1.8 primes.
But Olympus made some really bad decisions.
Like selling the 17/1.8 hood separately for $80....
 

ricohflex

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Feb 24, 2005
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In the film days of photography, a professional wedding photographer would not dare to bring a 16mm sub-miniature film camera to a wedding shoot. Or even a half frame film camera. His clients would be so offended and angry. But in the digital era a small minority of "professional" photographers have been getting away with the digital equivalent of just that by using small sensor digital cameras.

In the early days of digital photography, say before 2001 (before MFT which was introduced in 2008), guess the excuse was that technology has not improved and this is the best we can do.

The abuse continued after 2008 (MFT announced). And sadly, in 2020 a minority continue doing this. Which to me, is unforgivable at a "professional" level.

MFT may be good enough for own hobby shooting and some amateur video blog Youtube uploads.

But in 2020, once you are PAID for the photo shoot and especially in highly professional commercial/industrial environment, using MFT is a sign of disrespect for the client.

Consumers / Clients / Customers have rights too. Why stick MFT to them because they did not know better to reject it?

Latest DJI drone uses Super 35mm (APS-C) size sensor. So MFT is getting squeezed out of drone imaging.

It all boils down to Consumer Education. Currently some clients are clueless and they are taken advantage of.

Major newspapers in various countries should run a news article every month January to December to educate consumers about advantages of full frame and medium format. And continue this for 10 years. So that consumers know that they CAN stipulate {MFT not accepted} as a fundamental Red Line for the job/task/photo assignment. To the photographers - {Don't waste your own time applying for and waste our time rejecting you - if you insist on using MFT for professional jobs.}

It is common sense, is it not?
Why do you pay more for a limo service prestige class taxi airport transfer ride in a Mercedes or Bentley?
Because the EQUIPMENT used for the service is better. That is why.
 

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Pitachu

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Sep 18, 2019
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Wow! Are you telling us that all the professionals currently using MFT are doing their client a disservice?
Have you seen some of the actual works taken by these professionals?

Don't focus too much on equipment specs. They do not make a photographer more professional.

What matter most is that we deliver photos that put a smile on the customers face,
based on our creativity and capturing at the right moment. None of our customers
ever question what gear we used. We just chose the appropriate one amount
our Full Frame, APS and MFT systems based on the situation.
It is our skill and experience they are paying for, not our gear :cool:

In the film days of photography, a professional wedding photographer would not dare to bring a 16mm sub-miniature film camera to a wedding shoot. Or even a half frame film camera. His clients would be so offended and angry. But in the digital era a small minority of "professional" photographers have been getting away with the digital equivalent of just that by using small sensor digital cameras.

In the early days of digital photography, say before 2001 (before MFT which was introduced in 2008), guess the excuse was that technology has not improved and this is the best we can do.

The abuse continued after 2008 (MFT announced). And sadly, in 2020 a minority continue doing this. Which to me, is unforgivable at a "professional" level.

MFT may be good enough for own hobby shooting and some amateur video blog Youtube uploads.

But in 2020, once you are PAID for the photo shoot and especially in highly professional commercial/industrial environment. using MFT is a sign of disrespect for the client.

Consumers / Clients / Customers have rights too. Why stick MFT to them because they did not know better to reject it?

Latest DJI drone uses Super 35mm (APS-C) size sensor. So MFT is getting squeezed out of drone imaging.

It all boils down to Consumer Education. Currently some clients are clueless and they are taken advantage of.

Major newspapers in various countries should run a news article every month January to December to educate consumers about advantages of full frame and medium format. And continue this for 10 years. So that consumers know that they CAN stipulate {MFT not accepted} as a fundamental Red Line for the job/task/photo assignment. To the photographers - {Don't waste your own time applying for and waste our time rejecting you - if you insist on using MFT for professional jobs.}

It is common sense, is it not?
Why do you pay more for a limo service prestige class taxi airport transfer ride in a Mercedes or Bentley?
Because the EQUIPMENT used for the service is better. That is why.
 

ricohflex

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2005
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Would be good if more SG Professional Photographers use full frame and medium format digital cameras in their work.
If they had better equipment, Professional Photographers can make better use of their skill and experience.
Consumers must be educated to know they can demand a higher level of performance for what they pay to Professional Photographers.

Progress is customer driven.

And that brings us back to the collapse of Olympus Camera Division - the worldwide customers reject MFT overwhelmingly.
No sales. Massive losses.

You cannot have ¼ the sensor size and charge people 90% price of a full frame body. MFT lenses are not cheap either

No point telling people that photos from MFT are as good technically as from full frame. "Oh some website claims this."

People don't believe it.

Because it is not true.

Camera buyers are not stupid.

To me, Made in Vietnam is NOT the same as Made in Japan or Made in Germany.
Don't tell me about the QC. {Maybe they post a few Japanese engineers to supervise 1,000 Vietnamese workers}.
I don't care.
 

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Pitachu

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Sep 18, 2019
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1. Why did consumers use mobile phones with super tiny sensors instead of compact cameras, mirrorless or full frame?
>> Probably convenience is the most important factor for most people

2. Why did Apple have almost half the market share of mobile phone market when it is made in China and India?
>> As long the QC is good enough, consumers no longer care.

3. 1/4 sensor size does not equate 1/4 the price. A Sony RX100 VII with a even smaller sensor cost more than many
entry level DSLRs!

4. Don't assume Full Frame and Medium Format is suitable for all kinds of photographic situations, and discount the use
of smaller formats cameras. On my recent Mont Blanc trekking trip for 10 days, not one single person in our team
and in all other groups we met along the way carry a Full Frame or medium format camera, despite all the gorgeous scenery!



Would be good if more SG Professional Photographers use full frame and medium format digital cameras in their work.
If they had better equipment, Professional Photographers can make better use of their skill and experience.
Consumers must be educated to know they can demand a higher level of performance for what they pay to Professional Photographers.

Progress is customer driven.

And that brings us back to the collapse of Olympus Camera Division - the worldwide customers reject MFT overwhelmingly.
No sales. Massive losses.

You cannot have ¼ the sensor size and charge people 90% price of a full frame body. MFT lenses are not cheap either

No point telling people that photos from MFT are as good technically as from full frame. "Oh some website claims this."

People don't believe it.

Because it is not true.

Camera buyers are not stupid.

To me, Made in Vietnam is NOT the same as Made in Japan or Made in Germany.
Don't tell me about the QC. {Maybe they post a few Japanese engineers to supervise 1,000 Vietnamese workers}.
I don't care.
 

ricohflex

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2005
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Probably many tens of thousands of people visit Mont Blanc in 1 year.
So what camera gear they wish to bring on all those other trips when you were not there, is up to them.

You may not want to bring full frame or medium format camera. Don't assume other people don't want to.

Hasselblad X1D II 50C Weight (including batteries) 766 gm
Dimensions 148 x 97 x 70 mm

Sony A7 RIV Weight (including batteries) 665gm
Dimensions 128.9 x 96.4 x 77.5 mm

Olympus E-M1X Weight (including batteries) 997 gm
Dimensions 144.4 x 146.8 x 75.4 mm

I am not so sure about whether you inspected in detail the contents of packs of all the other groups that you met (did they allow you to do so?), to ensure/conclude that they did not bring a full frame or medium format camera.

Anyway, this Outdoor Lifestyle & Travel Photographer did use full frame camera in Mont Blanc.
He says Canon 6D Mk2.
He did hike the Tour Du Mont Blanc.

Do note the camera gear used for this Mont Blanc hike includes a full frame camera
Tour du Mont Blanc Hiking Trip | TMB 2018 | France | Italy | Switzerland
Drone: DJI Mavic Air
Camera: Sony A7III, Samsung Galaxy S7
 

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Castor Troy

Member
Oct 28, 2009
417
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Olympus would have survived if they were smart enough to release innovative products.
What would I have wanted?
A camera slightly bigger than Panasonic’s GM5 with a bigger grip (allowing a bigger battery), IBIS, a tilt screen and a better VF. A smaller LCD if necessary to keep the size down.
Also the 20MP sensor. Pair it with primes as necessary.

Alternatively, a good similar fixed lens camera with a 24-70/2.8-4IS lens.
Or better still, take a cue from the Nikon DL with a 18-50/2.8-4 lens.
Notice variable apertures to keep the weight down.
 

ricohflex

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Feb 24, 2005
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Olympus made fatal error #1 in adopting Four Thirds, initially developed by Olympus along with Kodak in 2003. It lost tons of money.
Olympus made fatal error #2 in adopting Micro Four Thirds in 2008. It lost tons of money.
Olympus made fatal error #3 in refusing to acknowledge reality (that consumers reject MFT) racking up terrible financial losses.
By mid 2020 Olympus had committed too long and too deeply into big mistakes.
The momentum of terrible mistakes made in the past was over-powering - Olympus was not able to steer the ship away from the crash.
It was too little, too late.

"Ambassadors" were paid and regularly sang praises of MFT.
After a while Olympus believed its own marketing flimflam. Olympus managed to bluff itself.
But consumers were NOT fooled.

Do ponder for a moment how different things would have been if Olympus had chosen instead to make cameras for APS-C in 2003
And then a short while later in 2008 for Full Frame. And then mirrorless Full Frame in 2013.
If that had happened, Fuji and Pentax may not have had a chance to survive.
And Sony would not have cornered the mirrorless full frame market from 2013.
 

Pitachu

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Sep 18, 2019
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1) I did not say other people do not want to. I say I have not met anyone who did.
And I don't anyone will carry a camera and leave it in the backpack without using it.
(unless you are the type that do!) Come on.... dont start twisting words to bring
this whole thing out of context.

What I am trying to say is that it is not practical for most people, as carrying your
backpack for several days walking up and down the mountain range is challenging enough.

2) Of all the M43 camera body, I am not sure why you keep choosing the E-M1x.
It is not representative of M43 cameras. My EM5 is only 414g.

3) You must have deliberately left out the weight of the lenses. M43 lenses
are generally smaller and lighter.
I used a respectable lens with my EM5 (Panasonic Leica 12-60 F2.8-4 is only 320g.
This lens gives me a range of 24mm to 120mm.
A Sony FE 24-120 F4 weights 665g!

4) I have a Canon 5D Mk2 and 80D (650g) and have carried them for few days of walking.
414g and 650g makes a huge difference.


Probably many tens of thousands of people visit Mont Blanc in 1 year.
So what camera gear they wish to bring on all those other trips when you were not there, is up to them.

You may not want to bring full frame or medium format camera. Don't assume other people don't want to.

Hasselblad X1D II 50C Weight (including batteries) 766 gm
Dimensions 148 x 97 x 70 mm

Sony A7 RIV Weight (including batteries) 665gm
Dimensions 128.9 x 96.4 x 77.5 mm

Olympus E-M1X Weight (including batteries) 997 gm
Dimensions 144.4 x 146.8 x 75.4 mm

I am not so sure about whether you inspected in detail the contents of packs of all the other groups that you met (did they allow you to do so?), to ensure/conclude that they did not bring a full frame or medium format camera.

Anyway, this Outdoor Lifestyle & Travel Photographer did use full frame camera in Mont Blanc.
He says Canon 6D Mk2.
He did hike the Tour Du Mont Blanc.

Do note the camera gear used for this Mont Blanc hike includes a full frame camera
Tour du Mont Blanc Hiking Trip | TMB 2018 | France | Italy | Switzerland
Drone: DJI Mavic Air
Camera: Sony A7III, Samsung Galaxy S7

 

Pitachu

Member
Sep 18, 2019
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I pondered before as an Olympus user.

If Olympus had chosen instead to make cameras for APS-C in 2003,
I would have remain with my Canon DSLRs!

Olympus will not be able to differentiate itself from the rest
and may have died like Yashica, Minolta etc. Unfortunately,
Olympus, together with Canon and Nikon, is not daring
enough to do Mirrorless. Only Sony has the financial
power to last the first few years of marketing mirrorless.

Let's be real.... almost all Ambassadors are paid (in $$$ or product).
You think someone is so free to make videos after videos of a product
if there is no incentive?

Among my circle of Photographers who uses M43, most of them have come from
another brand and probably still have the other brand of bodies and lens.
We deliberately choose M43 as an alternative system, and we knew that
we have to compromise a bit in image quality with a smaller sensor.
Olympus did not bluff or fool us! Neither did any of the local shops
I frequent try to portray that it is equivalent..

If consumers are being bluff by any wrong marketing messages,
they would have complained to their respective country consumers
association.

Just that as I mentioned earlier, some of the prints send to us for printing
are so good that we could not tell that it is from a smaller format sensor.

Olympus made fatal error #1 in adopting Four Thirds, initially developed by Olympus along with Kodak in 2003. It lost tons of money.
Olympus made fatal error #2 in adopting Micro Four Thirds in 2008. It lost tons of money.
Olympus made fatal error #3 in refusing to acknowledge reality (that consumers reject MFT) racking up terrible financial losses.
By mid 2020 Olympus had committed too long and too deeply into big mistakes.
The momentum of terrible mistakes made in the past was over-powering - Olympus was not able to steer the ship away from the crash.
It was too little, too late.

"Ambassadors" were paid and regularly sang praises of MFT.
After a while Olympus believed its own marketing flimflam. Olympus managed to bluff itself.
But consumers were NOT fooled.

Do ponder for a moment how different things would have been if Olympus had chosen instead to make cameras for APS-C in 2003
And then a short while later in 2008 for Full Frame. And then mirrorless Full Frame in 2013.
If that had happened, Fuji and Pentax may not have had a chance to survive.
And Sony would not have cornered the mirrorless full frame market from 2013.
 

ricohflex

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2005
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1) I did not say other people do not want to........

.....makes a huge difference.
Anyway, I am sure you enjoyed your Mont Blanc trek.
And wish you many happy photo taking holidays in future.
Photo equipment is a personal choice.
Others may wish to bring full frame or medium format because the photos of the trip are important to them.
They want the photos taken with a bigger sensor camera.
And they do not mind carrying the equipment for the duration of the trip.
It is their choice. MFT or smaller sensor camera may not be the default choice of everyone.
 

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ricohflex

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Been monitoring the Buy & Sell of MFT in this website and visited the 2nd hand camera shops in Peninsula area.
Today is 1 Aug 2020. Only about 38 days after Olympus announcement of 24 Jun 2020.

My reckoning of the situation is that if you already intended to sell your MFT equipment, better sell it NOW.
Don't delay the decision.

Alternatively you can use Carousell.
Currently I guess 2nd hand shops refuse to pay cash to buy MFT from owners.
You can only leave MFT there in the 2nd hand shop for sale by consignment.

Some time later, 2nd hand shops will eventually stop accepting MFT for consignment sale.
Because too much already displayed and yet no buyers.
That timing is probably about 6 months to 1 year later.

After that the re-sale prices will drop down a cliff to very low.

Despite this, few people want to buy at low price - due to herd buyer psychology.
Once something is deemed "unwanted" some may not want to be associated with it.
Some do not want to be seen using it.

There will also be fans of MFT who will keep the equipment, no matter what.
But they may not add to their existing collection.

Such is progress, the evolution of camera equipment and march of time.
 

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Castor Troy

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Oct 28, 2009
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The death knell came because Olympus would not upgrade from M43.
Compare and contrast the Olympus EM1m3 vs even the Sony A7III.
And 17/1.2 vs 35/1.8
25/1.2 vs 55/1.8
45/1.8 vs 85/1.8.
And the Sony will be cheaper with better 4K video and the setup will be lighter.
 

Pitachu

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Sep 18, 2019
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Why are you comparing an older model of Sony A7 iii with the latest Olympus EM1 Mk3?

The Sony A7 iii should be compared with the Olympus Em1 Mk2, both of which
are very good value for money!

The Olympus Em1 Mk3 should not be even compared to the Sony A7 IV,
as it is more than double the price of the Em1 Mk3, even though the Sony
was released 1 year earlier.

For comparison of lens, it depends whether whether you are going
for speed/brightness or background blur. If background blur
is your cup of tea, stay with Full Frame.

The difference between 1.2 and 1.8 is more than 1 stop
(more than twice the light) at the expense of depth of field.

You also also using cheaper Sony Lenses to compare with
the best Olympus Lenses. Come on...... if you are going for
the Sony A7 iii or iv, you should be using the best Sony Lenses
eg. Sony Distagon T* FE35mm F1.4mm (US$1600) to compare
with the Olympus 17mm F1.2 Pro Lenses.

The above is the actual advice I gave to all my friends.
Don't go for a top grade Pro Body with the best sensor
and pair it with cheap lenses. If the whole system is not within their
budget, go for the 6400 instead :)


The death knell came because Olympus would not upgrade from M43.
Compare and contrast the Olympus EM1m3 vs even the Sony A7III.
And 17/1.2 vs 35/1.8
25/1.2 vs 55/1.8
45/1.8 vs 85/1.8.
And the Sony will be cheaper with better 4K video and the setup will be lighter.
 

Pitachu

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Sep 18, 2019
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Ha Ha. Are you hoping that people will panic sell and you can pick up good deals
when they are sold cheap?

But honestly, why do I need to sell off my Olympus Gear when I can use it for the next 3 to 5 years.
I will end up spending more if I convert to Fuji or Sony.

Anyway, the used camera stuff shops at Peninsula are now very reluctant to take in most items generally.
I cannot even sell some of my Canon gear at a reasonable price and picked up the 80D for a song.
Without events and travel, Camera sales, new or used are generally very bad.


Been monitoring the Buy & Sell of MFT in this website and visited the 2nd hand camera shops in Peninsula area.
Today is 1 Aug 2020. Only about 38 days after Olympus announcement of 24 Jun 2020.

My reckoning of the situation is that if you already intended to sell your MFT equipment, better sell it NOW.
Don't delay the decision.

Alternatively you can use Carousell.
Currently I guess 2nd hand shops refuse to pay cash to buy MFT from owners.
You can only leave MFT there in the 2nd hand shop for sale by consignment.

Some time later, 2nd hand shops will eventually stop accepting MFT for consignment sale.
Because too much already displayed and yet no buyers.
That timing is probably about 6 months to 1 year later.

After that the re-sale prices will drop down a cliff to very low.

Despite this, few people want to buy at low price - due to herd buyer psychology.
Once something is deemed "unwanted" some may not want to be associated with it.
Some do not want to be seen using it.

There will also be fans of MFT who will keep the equipment, no matter what.
But they may not add to their existing collection.

Such is progress, the evolution of camera equipment and march of time.
 

ricohflex

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2005
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Just giving opinion to MFT owners - especially if the lens is made in Vietnam. (it has no brand image value).

But I have advised friends NOT to sell their Leica M lenses and Leica R lenses when the film era ended.

Digital camera bodies will usually fall in value due to technology advances.

But top quality lenses (full frame) retain some of their value even if they are from film era. Many old lenses can be used with adapters on digital bodies.
M lenses do not even need adapters with the new M digital full frame bodies.
 

Pitachu

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Yep. Old Lenses without Autofocus and Image Stabilizer electronics can last forever.
I heard there are photographers that can adapt these old lenses to the lastest Sony bodies for special effects.

But back to Olympus lenses, I guess all of us has to be realistic. We can only continue to use the lenses
and body as long as they are working or have spare parts and service center that can repair them.

Having owned 3 or 4 camera systems with about 20 lenses from various brands over more than 10 years,
I have only send 2 lenses for repairs, and 1 of them is because I dropped it! And these are modern lenses
with AF and sometime IS electronics. It's very rare that they fail.

Generally, I am not too worried about my Olympus system. I will continue to use it as long as I can.
When the Olympus items fail and I can no longer get them repaired, I will slowly migrate to Panasonic.
This is because MFT form factor works great for me as I seldom need more resolution / dynamic range.

The day MFT is no longer around, I will probably move on the the next smallest form factor, APS rather
than full frame. During those days when I am using Canon, I used my 60D much more often than my
5D MK ii.
 

ricohflex

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Panasonic previously said this:
Panasonic: “we will never give up on MFT because 70% of the system camera market is NOT Full Frame” - 5 Oct 2018
Panasonic confirms MFT is high on their priority list and they will not make APS-C L-mount cameras - 17 March 2020

Out of that 70%, how much belonged to MFT? I suspect most of that 70% belonged to APS-C in 2018.
But that too will change and move towards Full Frame.

From 2020 onward, what camera companies announce about their product policies - will change every 6 months.

In the hey day of Kodak 126 cartridge (26.5mm x 26.5mm film negatives) Instamatic cameras in 1963, Kodak could have said the same - that 70% of the market is not 35mm film format.

But 13 years later on Kodak stopped making Instamatic cameras in 1976 due to zero demand.

Consumer attitudes and interests change.

Panasonic is a giant conglomerate and cameras is a very small part of their business. Dropping MFT will not hurt Panasonic.
Panasonic makes batteries for electric cars. That is a future growth area.
 

Blu-By-U

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Aug 2, 2006
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Selangor D.E.
Finally the truth is out. Firesale is not going to happen. So don't hold your breath.
 

Pitachu

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Sep 18, 2019
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I fully understand Panasonic stand.

Panasonic has decided to venture into Full Frame with the L-mount, pulling Sigma & Leica in for support,
as Olympus opted out. However, Panasonic has not managed to get much market share as Full Frame
DSLR are dominated by Sony, Canon and Nikon.

Panasonic or any company has no choice to give up certain product range where there is no more demand,
just like Nokia, Ericsson & Motorola (for those who are as old as me, these are market leaders in Mobile Phones
dominating the Global market).

Between the mobile phones and Full Frame, there are 1 2/3", 1", MFT and APS etc. there is definitely a need
for a sensor in between Mobile Phone and Full Frame as Mobile Phone sensors are a little bit too limited.

So the question is which sensor format will stay and which one will disappear.


Panasonic previously said this:
Panasonic: “we will never give up on MFT because 70% of the system camera market is NOT Full Frame” - 5 Oct 2018
Panasonic confirms MFT is high on their priority list and they will not make APS-C L-mount cameras - 17 March 2020

Out of that 70%, how much belonged to MFT? I suspect most of that 70% belonged to APS-C in 2018.
But that too will change and move towards Full Frame.

From 2020 onward, what camera companies announce about their product policies - will change every 6 months.

In the hey day of Kodak 126 cartridge (26.5mm x 26.5mm film negatives) Instamatic cameras in 1963, Kodak could have said the same - that 70% of the market is not 35mm film format.

But 13 years later on Kodak stopped making Instamatic cameras in 1976 due to zero demand.

Consumer attitudes and interests change.

Panasonic is a giant conglomerate and cameras is a very small part of their business. Dropping MFT will not hurt Panasonic.
Panasonic makes batteries for electric cars. That is a future growth area.