What will you do if u found that a very competent worker used fake degree to get into

[ricohflex]

Is he now making tons of money for the company or for you?

If yes,

then does the degree mean anything?

You want him to stop making tons of money for you?

But monitor very carefully, as it hints at dishonesty in his character.

In the long term, he may cheat you out of a huge sum.

Even those with real degrees can cheat you and run away. The lawyer recently in the news.

 

[eikin]

fire, no question asked.

i don't know which industry you're in, in the design industry, that's as good as stealing other people's work and presenting them as your own to get the job. no matter how capable that person is on the job, if he/she can steal others' works to benefit himself/herself, he/she can steal your company's work to benefit a rival company. in the design industry, leaking of design document is as good as having one's grave dug.

you let one example continue, you attract more to do so.

 

[contaxable]

Do not hire by just looking at paper. In one of the appointment I held, some of the best sales people i had in my team barely only had a few "O" Level passes and they championed with 7 digits revenue every quarter. The deg holders performed fairly well as they are smart and premptive, but still not as aggressive as the gurus. I had one who had a master degree from usa, talked alot of kok and business theories to me (even enlightened me about business strategies :bsmilie: ), but he was the worst performer in the team!

Integrity is a different thing altogether. Perhaps, if you look at it in a way that if they were so smart they can fool their way in, they proof that they can break boundaries and help the team scale greater heights.

Remember, though, once that person realised you knew they cheated their way in with fake qualifications, they may not last very long since their conscience would destroy their self worth in a matter of months.

Leave them where they are, let them remain as champions. At least, you are not messing with the forces that pushes the team forward. At the end of the day, the bottom line matters more. These are, to me, HR issues, and I prefer to look at the bigger picture.

 

[wildstallion]

The simple fact of the matter is this. School is irrelevant. University is irrelevant. And qualifications are irrelevant, too, because you can put anything you like on a CV and I absolutely guaruantee an employer wont check. And lets be honest here: saying you have 12 a levels is a damn sight easier than actually getting them. If i were an employer, id far rather take on someone who lied about his/her academic acheivements than someone who wasted away their precious childhood by reading John Donne poems and doing algebra. Lying shows you have a bit of nous.

And if anyone knows where this comes from, id be mildy impressed.

 

[CYRN]

How about this? case? :think:

Will she ever be employed?

 

[maxmax]

i have seen
people with qualifications but not competent ,
people without qualification but competent ,

the difference comes when the salary is dished out , the 1 with qualifications gets more,

so looking at people that submitting fake degrees is not a surprise to me , but the market is even worst off when the CV indicates some other experience which the applicant did not have. these type is the killer group as a good touch up on the cv will land them in a higher paying job.

i have seen alot in that does this, so i always wonder if honesty is really that important after all.

I agree with you.
Just take my HR department as an example, "Manager very wicked, change company policy as and when she like just to benefits herself, very unprofessional. Her assistant is a blur sotong yet getting very high pay.:angry:

 

[wazzup]

Why? TS, you kena caught ah? :nono:

 

[Deadpoet]

Do not hire by just looking at paper. In one of the appointment I held, some of the best sales people i had in my team barely only had a few "O" Level passes and they championed with 7 digits revenue every quarter. The deg holders performed fairly well as they are smart and premptive, but still not as aggressive as the gurus. I had one who had a master degree from usa, talked alot of kok and business theories to me (even enlightened me about business strategies :bsmilie: ), but he was the worst performer in the team!

Integrity is a different thing altogether. Perhaps, if you look at it in a way that if they were so smart they can fool their way in, they proof that they can break boundaries and help the team scale greater heights.

Remember, though, once that person realised you knew they cheated their way in with fake qualifications, they may not last very long since their conscience would destroy their self worth in a matter of months.

Leave them where they are, let them remain as champions. At least, you are not messing with the forces that pushes the team forward. At the end of the day, the bottom line matters more. These are, to me, HR issues, and I prefer to look at the bigger picture.

If I were your manager, you will be fired immediately. You are lucky I am not. You have absolutely NO integrity. Do you even know what integrity means?

You are misguided and naive. Once a person lied, got found out, and nothing is done, it's an invitation to lie some more.

 

[centuryegg]

In the business world, it is the bottomline that counts, integrity is for the losers. If there is really integrity, there wont be MNCs that use cheap labour and sell high.

End of the day if the guy brings in tons of money, the company will close one eye.

 

[Jix]

I personally know someone who faked his credentials but holds a top positions in the company I previously worked for. I can say his pretty good with his job... for his case the company never found out. His in the states now, I didnt do anything cos his my friend.

 

[shinken]

There's one good thing about this thread - Exposes the fundamentals of individuals here.

 

[Jix]

There's one good thing about this thread - Exposes the fundamentals of individuals here.

depends on your values man. some people value their friends more...

 

[shinken]

depends on your values man. some people value their friends more...

I agree

 

[Deadpoet]

In the business world, it is the bottomline that counts, integrity is for the losers. If there is really integrity, there wont be MNCs that use cheap labour and sell high.

End of the day if the guy brings in tons of money, the company will close one eye.

Really, if everyone in this country subscribe to centuryegg's idea that integrity is for losers, god helps Singapore. I am very sadden to read many of the replies to this thread.

MNC moving operation to low cost area and strive to maximize profit is not an integrity issue. It's business. An MNC lying about it's losses, for example, is an integrity issue.

A CEO demanding and getting paid $ millions is not an integrity issue, it's his negotiation skills and his marketability. A CEO steering contracts to friends and family without bids is an intefrity.

Someone getting a job, with all the right papers, but cannot deliver, is not an integrity issue, it's incompetence. Someone lying about his qualification to get a job, regardless of whether he can perform or not, is an integrity issue.

Competence and performance is not the issue here. The issue is whether we can trust someone who lied, whether we can continue to employ someone who lied to get the job, and whether a company can afford to allow such deceit to continue with a blind eye.

 

[contaxable]

If I were your manager, you will be fired immediately. You are lucky I am not. You have absolutely NO integrity. Do you even know what integrity means?

You are misguided and naive. Once a person lied, got found out, and nothing is done, it's an invitation to lie some more.

Hi DP, you have a good point there. Integrity plays a pivitol role in work hygeine. I know what integrity is. In fact, I just got played out when I stuck to integrity recently at clubsnap. In the end I was being blamed for not sticking to unspoken rules. Anyway, that is off topic here and I shan't elaborate more.

I have several people under my care. From senior managers to down under. None of them is perfect. If I should pick on each and every one of them, for faking sick and not turning up for work, for telling a little lie, for giving excuses for some petty matters, I would have fired all of them. I probably end up with me and myself to run the who chain of business. Of course, for those who stole from the company and cheated customers, that would be no question asked. But for some others, who occassionally made mistakes in life, I try to look at the bigger picture. I gave them a second chance through moral suasion and let the managers to keep me in the loop. When I intervene, it's hire or fire.

I try not to fire, but I have the middle management fire them up and make them champions in the firm. They are worth a second chance and are still assets to the firm. People are not perfect, though we try to dwell in a perfect world within ourselves or at least in CS.

Cheers

 

[shinken]

Really, if everyone in this country subscribe to centuryegg's idea that integrity is for losers, god helps Singapore. I am very sadden to read many of the replies to this thread.

MNC moving operation to low cost area and strive to maximize profit is not an integrity issue. It's business. An MNC lying about it's losses, for example, is an integrity issue.

A CEO demanding and getting paid $ millions is not an integrity issue, it's his negotiation skills and his marketability. A CEO steering contracts to friends and family without bids is an intefrity.

Someone getting a job, with all the right papers, but cannot deliver, is not an integrity issue, it's incompetence. Someone lying about his qualification to get a job, regardless of whether he can perform or not, is an integrity issue.

Competence and performance is not the issue here. The issue is whether we can trust someone who lied, whether we can continue to employ someone who lied to get the job, and whether a company can afford to allow such deceit to continue with a blind eye.

Sad right? :flush:

 

[shinken]

Hi DP, you have a good point there. Integrity plays a pivitol role in work hygeine. I know what integrity is. In fact, I just got played out when I stuck to integrity recently at clubsnap. In the end I was being blamed for not sticking to unspoken rules. Anyway, that is off topic here and I shan't elaborate more.

I have several people under my care. From senior managers to down under. None of them is perfect. If I should pick on each and every one of them, for faking sick and not turning up for work, for telling a little lie, for giving excuses for some petty matters, I would have fired all of them. I probably end up with me and myself to run the who chain of business. Of course, for those who stole from the company and cheated customers, that would be no question asked. But for some others, who occassionally made mistakes in life, I try to look at the bigger picture. I gave them a second chance through moral suasion and let the managers to keep me in the loop. When I intervene, it's hire or fire.

I try not to fire, but I have the middle management fire them up and make them champions in the firm. They are worth a second chance and are still assets to the firm. People are not perfect, though we try to dwell in a perfect world within ourselves or at least in CS.

Cheers

We don't have to play the role of the moral judge here. Non of us here can, or qualify. The issue is 'faking degree', and how you respond to that. You've given your answer. Really unnecessary to try to 'equate' faking degrees with telling a lie or giving an excuse. Or bringing in other moral issues to justify. Just this: Faking degree.

 

[contaxable]

Just this: Faking degree.

Hi Shinken

A lie is a lie. Whether fake degree or faking sick with MC. Worse still, faking death of next of kin or relative to avoid projects/reservists. In army its called "kheng," and that alone still question integrity.

I think my perception differs slightly from yours. I am talking about integrity, and is beyond faking a degree one-off. Or, you will be surprised, there are continual integrity problems in our society, just that there is no end to it.

How about this. Fake accident? A police officer "in a certain country" was speeding on his scooter, made an illegal left turn at red light, skided and fell behind my car. Another police officer on the road witnessed the scene and helped me with the report. But the report was nullified by the HQ as they needed to rewrite another report without giving me a copy of it.
There was no impact in the scooter accident, but he wrecked his bike on the floor with minor injuries. He faked the scenario and scapegoated me. The IO (investigating officer f me and told me to not to fight cos his man is on the right side of the law). I was fined $200 and was told not to pursue the matter as I won't win. The IO said in his eaact words, "its only $200 what, just pay for it and I will close the case. BTW, the officer is on MC for several months and he still cant report for work." Integrity at its peak. Police officer, faking report with IO help and scapegoating the public. Isn't this integrity as well? How do we entrust men in blue then?

This is the world. Integrity is only a cherished value. It means nothing actually, not even to law makers sometimes.

I am slowly learning how the world evolve. Do enlighten if you think the above incident does not irk you.

 

[shinken]

Hi Shinken

A lie is a lie. Whether fake degree or faking sick with MC. Worse still, faking death of next of kin or relative to avoid projects/reservists. In army its called "kheng," and that alone still question integrity.

I think my perception differs slightly from yours. I am talking about integrity, and is beyond faking a degree one-off. Or, you will be surprised, there are continual integrity problems in our society, just that there is no end to it.

How about this. Fake accident? A police officer "in a certain country" was speeding on his scooter, made an illegal left turn at red light, skided and fell behind my car. Another police officer on the road witnessed the scene and helped me with the report. But the report was nullified by the HQ as they needed to rewrite another report without giving me a copy of it.
There was no impact in the scooter accident, but he wrecked his bike on the floor with minor injuries. He faked the scenario and scapegoated me. The IO (investigating officer f me and told me to not to fight cos his man is on the right side of the law). I was fined $200 and was told not to pursue the matter as I won't win. The IO said in his eaact words, "its only $200 what, just pay for it and I will close the case. BTW, the officer is on MC for several months and he still cant report for work." Integrity at its peak. Police officer, faking report with IO help and scapegoating the public. Isn't this integrity as well? How do we entrust men in blue then?

This is the world. Integrity is only a cherished value. It means nothing actually, not even to law makers sometimes.

I am slowly learning how the world evolve. Do enlighten if you think the above incident does not irk you.

Way at the beginning, when I expressed my stance, I had made it clear that my stance is a personal one. My stance is that I value honesty over competency. And I fully understand that there are people in the world who value competence over honesty.

Now having different values is one thing. Trying to justify by making it 'right' is why I engage in this discussion.

You can say committing one sin is no different from committing seven sins. I can't argue with that. But we're not talking about sins here. We're talking about different degrees of dishonesty. Some degrees of honesty are of graver concerns than others. If you must, and want to engage me in your judgement, using your examples, I would say:

Lying about sickness to get a day off work, compared to someone who faked a degree to enter my corporation, my personal decision, would be to think that faking a degree is a graver issue than lying about sickness. If it is an ok thing to do, I'm encouraging the climate of the subordinates to:

1) Lie about work they had done
2) Lie about accomplishments (fake them, steal credits etc)
3) Lie to clients about the company's credentials to get the deal
4) Lie about the products just to close the sale
5) Fill in the blanks as you please. Insert anything that's tied to lying about your worth.

After all, one lie doesn't matter, why should more lies? It does, depending on how severe it would affect the organisation.

That's very personal, and very tiring for me to explain here in forums. But I have far less to fear from a person who lies about his sickness, than a person who lies about what he has achieved.

To a person who sees that dishonesty is an issue, as enlightened by Major Tom, I see this person deserves another chance. To a person who sees dishonesty as a thing for losers, or something that's essential to be 'competent', I find them counter-productive in the long run. If anyone can adopt a more macro perspective than immediate returns.

To each his/her own ya?

 

[Hobbesyeo]

In the business world, it is the bottomline that counts, integrity is for the losers. If there is really integrity, there wont be MNCs that use cheap labour and sell high.

End of the day if the guy brings in tons of money, the company will close one eye.

I think that in the business world, integrity must be as important, if not more important than the bottom line.

Would you rather do business with a person/business who is known to be trustworthy (eg where to buy xxx camera equipment from?), or with a dodgy character who is known for screwing people over? (eg: a recent thread abt a certain events company and a group of fotogs).

So what if that guy brings in tons of money? How do you know he's not siphoning off something on the side? Maybe it could have been billions. How do you know? Can you trust him absolutely to do the right thing for the company? (eg Y**** Challenge, N*F)

In the short run, it may not matter, but definitely in the long run, the company is going to have problems.

Anyway, I don't understand your example of equating integrity and "MMCs, cheap labour and high prices." How does that work?