thinking of others

[ortega]

from this tread,
http://forum.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=229981

i do not want to discuss this on the TS tread

Speak for yourself, it's not an insult to me. Think of others, times are hard for some bros and they could gladly use the money.

exactly, that is what i am doing, thinking of others.
other photographers newbie, hobbist or professionals and CS as a whole
it seems that CS has become known as a place to get photographers for peanuts (not the NKF type)
since you are new here, i would suppose that you do not know the history
I do not make photography my living, so it does not hurt me.

But it will hurt the profession, the pros and the pros to be.
it takes great passion and skill to take good photos consistantly
and make the best of every situation.
Lots of years of hard work and experience.

"times are hard" yes i agree, and it is getting harder if nobody wants to educate the photographers that they are worth more. and the clients that it is not as simple as pressing the shutter and there are other costs involved as well.

What I see is a person looking for someone to fit a budget. This is my last post on this topic so have fun and fire away. If you feel too many birds poop on you then get a reality check and learn to separate personal things from business things...do you think threadstarter came here specifically looking to poop on you? Go easy bro, can you blame a woman for trying to get a bargain

"Uniquely Singapore and 4 million smiles"

i have nothing against the TS, just doing my part.
Somehow I feel that this concept of "everyone look after themselves" is bad
You cant blame me for trying to protect my own.

I mention again as above, photography is not my bread and butter,
but CS is my playground and my friends are there, i will try to shoo birds that poop in the playground where me and my friends meet.


Everyone else, what are your reactions to this issue
I know that this has come up time and time again
but it is time to do something about it

you deserve more!

 

[catchlights]

.......
i have nothing against the TS, just doing my part.
Somehow I feel that this concept of "everyone look after themselves" is bad
You cant blame me for trying to protect my own.

I mention again as above, photography is not my bread and butter,
but CS is my playground and my friends are there, i will try to shoo birds that poop in the playground where me and my friends meet.
........

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Sjourn]

It's a friend or student's price @$200 IMHO. don't expect anything spectacular for that kind of budget.

i guess for hawaiisg info, alot of ppl ask for free shoots and stuffs, these irks pro photogs here.
Photography services are not cheap, some are rice bowls, others are for hobby sake. This community need education for new photogs wannabe, if serious, follow pro photog as assistant or back up and get red packet and earn experience. If shoot for free or token sum, than it just cheapens the trade.

too many incidents already....

my 2 cent

 

[eikin]

i always feel that CS as one of Singapore's biggest photography online community should take a stronger stance on this issue. but that's my personal view, and since CS admin and mods are maintaining a neutral stance, i'm more than happy to see that passionate members who are willing to take up the unfavourable role of educating the seemingly ineducable mass of people who seek and provide cheap services which do not justify the value of photography work.

although an inevitable problem that accompanies the proliferation of prosumer DSLRs, i don't believe in taking a step backwards and doing nothing, no matter how insignificant the effort may be.

 

[jsbn]

There may be a mass proliferation of consumer DSLRs as we know. But truly, what sets aside a cameraman, a photographer and an artist?

It all lies in their photos.

A cameraman simply gets a photo by pressing the button. People go "wow!" but subsequently they get bored and looks at newer and newer works. Going "Wow!" and thats just abt it.

A photographer's photo stands the test of time longer. By moving into exploring zone, his works appeals and freshens the eyes, taken according to what he desires. Stirs the viewer's moment at that time. Captures the mood. People go "Wow!" still, but their cries quickly fade as they settle down to feel the presence on the photo's meaning.

An Artist, the ultimate in Photography, will probably generate a lifetime of thought and provocation even way beyond his time. The photos are pure Art and people don't simply go "Wow!" but they stop to look and ponder to feel not only on the photo's meaning, but the man behind the camera itself. His thoughts, his feelings, his psychology. It stirs the mind, soul and body. He can probably just take a single photo and that's all it takes for people to want to see it again and again and again and again.

 

[nightwolf75]

ortega - dun be bothered by the other fella. he/she/it just register to throw poop at u. ;p

 

[clicknick]

Interesting discussion here.

But seriously, to all the pros in CS, does someone asking for $200 shot here in CS, and then newbies taking up the $200 offer, does it really affect you pros so much that you need to make a lot of noise whenever you see such threads? It really affects your rice bowl?

I always thought that the pros serve a different market, they offer better service and quality and therefore charge more for the clients willing to pay for that, and won't be bother about such things as it doesn't affect them. Shouldn't pros be above such things, and should not bring themselves down to this level to heckle the TS whenever someone wants cheapo services? But then I keep seeing pros coming back again and again to such threads to make noise.

Pros care to comment? Thanks.

I am sort of neutral to all this, just feeling very free and kapo tonite. :sweat:

 

[skinnylatte]

Pros and hobbyists and students have very different markets.

The pros' clientele are probably well aware that they get what they pay for; that a wedding is a one in a lifetime experience; that they should not scrimp on something as important as their wedding photography.

That said, I do think "the others" accepting such ridiculously low offers do hurt the profession — and all photographers. As someone who shoots for pleasure (and for money sometimes, but in a different context: a journalistic/travel one), I am occasionally asked by acquaintances to do shoots for weddings and events for free, or for peanuts. That's because they don't understand the worth of photography as a career or a profession. It's the same with webdesigners; so many clients now think paying $100 to $200 for a student with Dreamweaver to create a webpage is a better route to take than to pay a pro $100-200 per hour or per page. As with the proliferation of consumer-level webpage-creation tools creating this 'other' supply of less-qualified, cheaper photogs, the mass appeal of consumer DSLRs have also brought with them the increasing numbers of weekend photogs.

I'm not happy to see this happening, but hey, in a market economy; if the buyer's offer can meet the seller's price, then good for them, they have a match. Let's just leave them to suffer from unprofessional, potentially bad photos together (not saying that amateur photogs cannot be good, just that they may not have the whole set of services that a pro photog can offer).

 

[ortega]

ortega - dun be bothered by the other fella. he/she/it just register to throw poop at u. ;p

i know lah, his post count was 3, somemore his wife is pro DI artist
one day the DI market will kena also

talking about the DI market...

this brings to mind another issue.

photographers on a whole are becoming lazy and resorting on DI to do the real work
as a person in the creative industry, i see lots of images and it sickens me to see
the standard of photography drop.

Again this is a market driven economy and the client accepts it.
but hey, this also cheapens the value of the photographer as well

15 years ago, as a 3rd year art student, i charged $700 to take a picture of a hand
yes just one shot, nothing really fancy, just a shot of a hand taken in a studio.

I was a student then and already i commanded that kind of price, what happened?
the art directors needed the skills of the photographer to help them realise their
concepts and photographers commanded some respect.

Photogs had a role to play in the creation of that concept and the art directors listened
to the photogs views for consideration.

 

[ortega]

Interesting discussion here.

But seriously, to all the pros in CS, does someone asking for $200 shot here in CS, and then newbies taking up the $200 offer, does it really affect you pros so much that you need to make a lot of noise whenever you see such threads? It really affects your rice bowl?

I always thought that the pros serve a different market, they offer better service and quality and therefore charge more for the clients willing to pay for that, and won't be bother about such things as it doesn't affect them. Shouldn't pros be above such things, and should not bring themselves down to this level to heckle the TS whenever someone wants cheapo services? But then I keep seeing pros coming back again and again to such threads to make noise.

Pros care to comment? Thanks.

I am sort of neutral to all this, just feeling very free and kapo tonite. :sweat:

the rice bowl of the pros will not be affected in the short run,
but over a long period of time the value of photogs will start to move down.

Lets say, the company that i work for needs a photo and i know that i can get people
from CS to do the work for free, why should i pay a pro to do it.

After all the image will maybe become a bus ad where many ppl will see
and the photog can be proud to say i took that picture for that big name brand
isn't that something to put in your portfolio?

So if every company can get free/cheap photogs then what will happen to the industry?

Photography is our passion and maybe for some will become their ricebowl
what we do now will affect the far future.

 

[bride2be]

:sweat:

First of all, I like to thank the fantastic bros for PMing me on their friendly offers.
Secondly, the replies to my thread and this "sister thread".

To clarify as suggested, I am not asking for prints nor editing, just merely photoshoot with pics return in CD-R. (Please dun assume cuz it make an ASS out of U and ME)

I feel kinda sad about being pointed as "insulting" photographers, as my HTB is a hobbyist himself. We do have friends who are willing to help, but we want them to enjoy the day attending our solemnization instead.

For this is a forum and we are free to talk, so no obligations on posting of anything cuz this is a free world where everybody speaks up their minds and hold their stands firmly. I am merely looking for people who are WILLING to provide such services at my tight budget, I am not pointing guns at the photographers faces to accomadate my peanut. My tight budget is due to having mouths to feed, so if I spend 1K on my ROM photographer, I might be called "selfish" in family forums. (Hard to please everyone eh?) Not everybody are bless to be born with a silver spoon or good income. They wouldn't know why are "these people" DESPERATE for services/products at this rate. They just think we are DEMANDING and UNREASONABLE.

Do I not know a wedding is once in a lifetime? Do I really WANT to tighten my budget? :nono:

And of cuz NOT ASKING FOR PROS or high-end result. If I go to a saloon and get a manicure, it might cost me $50, but if I get someone who just wants to practise of build up their portfolio, they might just charge me for the nail polish and nail art. I use to have a photographer who shoot more than 100 studio pics for my son FOC, which is of cuz, to build up his portfolio. And yet again, when your mum goes to the market and starts bargaining for the chicken and free items, do you call your mum insulting the poor stall owner, the farmer, the eggs or even the hen who gave birth to the chicken? Or you will even call her shameless to demand for a free chicken liver. Do you call your mum insulting the whole chicken industry? Why does she bargain? Because she wants to stretch her dollar, scrimp and save on whatever she can to give the family a better life.

Soon to see forum rules stating "poor people are not allowed to post for <services wanted>", "minimum asking price for ROM photography will be $300 for 3hours", "no cheapskates allowed", "no bargaining"? :think:

And interesting topic about ricebowls. Why muz you snatch the rice bowls away from young and budding photographer? And if your work are really fantastic, do you have to fear? I supposed pros' work are comparable to budget photographers'. A market muz be compeititive, if not, your product muz be so amazing that people are willing to pay every single cent for it. Other than that, please brush up your skills to compete in this growingly demanding market.

And if you call me "insulting", do you call the people who PMed me "shameless"? (More than 20 PMs and counting) And how about people who posted their services for a low price?

Am really wondering why pros are stopping financial-contraint parties from looking for services to suit their budgets. I mean, grow up, get a life. Not everybody earns close to you and I am not robbing you. So, you need not overeact to such threads. If you're really unhappy about it you might want to check with CASE? Since a willing party is able to provide the consumer with his citeria, it's not a crime. If being poor is a sin, hand cuff me! Now am I doing anything that is morally wrong, as I mentioned, I'm not forcing anybody to take up this insulting piece of assignment, I'm just trying my luck, looking for people who happily accepts and fit into my bill.

Bottomline, I AM LOOKING FOR WILLING PARTIES.

BTW, food is provided. I might be poor but I am still a human with conscience. :angel:

Just my personal views and prespectives.

p/s: my HTB wanted to get the double "xi" album, but I supposed I dun want the cheaply taken pictures to insult the fantastic album.

 

[ortega]

wah, bring mother into the picture?

tis one fierce man

 

[catchlights]

p/s: my HTB wanted to get the double "xi" album, but I supposed I dun want the cheaply taken pictures to insult the fantastic album.

Thank you for showing interest on the double xi album.

 

[catchlights]

And interesting topic about ricebowls. Why muz you snatch the rice bowls away from young and budding photographer? And if your work are really fantastic, do you have to fear? I supposed pros' work are comparable to budget photographers'. A market muz be compeititive, if not, your product muz be so amazing that people are willing to pay every single cent for it. Other than that, please brush up your skills to compete in this growingly demanding market.

Who "want" or who "is" and "how" to snatch the rice bowls away from young and budding photographer?
please enlighten me.

 

[Cheesecake]

hobbyists and professional photographers are quite some way apart. one depends on photography to make a living and the other, simply as a past-time and maybe, a extra avenue to make some fast $$.

i believe there's a sub S$200 market, likewise, a S$200000 market.

different photographers cater to different markets and clients.

let's not feel upset over someone whom we don't know, and besides, S$200 is beta than some clowns who asked for F.O.C. which happens from time to time in CS.

but S$200 is certainly not most professional photographers' market and interest esp. in ClubSnap.

and bottomline is, what u pay for is what u get. don't screw that all important day/event. 0h yeah, Stone Cold said so. :cheers:



where there is conflict, there u will find curry cheese puffs.

 

[CYRN]

p/s: my HTB wanted to get the double "xi" album, but I supposed I dun want the cheaply taken pictures to insult the fantastic album.

Another budget photographer wanted debate.

Firstly, I like to commend the likes of ortega for standing up to upkeep the photography "profession". But there's no stopping new comers from undercutting. Unless pro photogs have the likes of a Union, RIAS or BSA behind.

But in this case, it's besides the point. The above quote shows how much you "respected" the selected photog's work...whomever he/she may be.

 

[ortega]

First of all, I like to thank the fantastic bros for PMing me on their friendly offers.
Secondly, the replies to my thread and this "sister thread".

it is expected that you will get many offers

To clarify as suggested, I am not asking for prints nor editing, just merely photoshoot with pics return in CD-R. (Please dun assume cuz it make an ASS out of U and ME)

I believe that it was not an assumption but a question, so now it is only you who looks like an ...

I feel kinda sad about being pointed as "insulting" photographers, as my HTB is a hobbyist himself. We do have friends who are willing to help, but we want them to enjoy the day attending our solemnization instead.

i would suggest you re read your post again, you only stated you needs here in this tread.

For this is a forum and we are free to talk, so no obligations on posting of anything cuz this is a free world where everybody speaks up their minds and hold their stands firmly. I am merely looking for people who are WILLING to provide such services at my tight budget, I am not pointing guns at the photographers faces to accomadate my peanut. My tight budget is due to having mouths to feed, so if I spend 1K on my ROM photographer, I might be called "selfish" in family forums. (Hard to please everyone eh?) Not everybody are bless to be born with a silver spoon or good income. They wouldn't know why are "these people" DESPERATE for services/products at this rate. They just think we are DEMANDING and UNREASONABLE.

and i am only having a discussion with fellow photographers about the industry, you only just happen to be an example. I would call it being there at the wrong place and at the wrong time, but there were other b4 you, so you are not alone.

Do I not know a wedding is once in a lifetime? Do I really WANT to tighten my budget? :nono:

did you explain your situation to us? No, but history tells us that couple who have no budget for photography has spent it all on a nice 5 star hotel banquet.

And of cuz NOT ASKING FOR PROS or high-end result. If I go to a saloon and get a manicure, it might cost me $50, but if I get someone who just wants to practise of build up their portfolio, they might just charge me for the nail polish and nail art.

so did you go to get a manicure professionally done? Hair? Makeup? Made new gown?

I use to have a photographer who shoot more than 100 studio pics for my son FOC, which is of cuz, to build up his portfolio.

what happened to him? I would suppose that he would love to shoot for you again.

And yet again, when your mum goes to the market and starts bargaining for the chicken and free items, do you call your mum insulting the poor stall owner, the farmer, the eggs or even the hen who gave birth to the chicken? Or you will even call her shameless to demand for a free chicken liver. Do you call your mum insulting the whole chicken industry? Why does she bargain? Because she wants to stretch her dollar, scrimp and save on whatever she can to give the family a better life.

ah... interesting things if your mother goes to the market and asked the stall owner for 2 whole chicken for $5, will the stall holder be insulted? you tell me

farmer? eggs? hen? wah you need to calm down, you might get high blood pressure

If your mother demanded for free chicken liver it would be "lose face", shameless is too strong a word for this example. Because in the first place she has no right to demand. Insulting the whole chicken industry.... wah i dunno man
Why does she bargain? to pay less money i guess.

But we are not talking about mothers and chicken industries, the money saved will not go to making the family life better, it would be going to other luxuries.

Soon to see forum rules stating "poor people are not allowed to post for <services wanted>", "minimum asking price for ROM photography will be $300 for 3hours", "no cheapskates allowed", "no bargaining"? :think:

the stand of the admin is stated already, go read it yourself.

And interesting topic about ricebowls. Why muz you snatch the rice bowls away from young and budding photographer? And if your work are really fantastic, do you have to fear? I supposed pros' work are comparable to budget photographers'. A market muz be compeititive, if not, your product muz be so amazing that people are willing to pay every single cent for it. Other than that, please brush up your skills to compete in this growingly demanding market.

ok rice bowls

again you need to read this tread from the start, I am not a pro
so i cannot snatch any rice bowls
i am trying to educate the young and budding photographers of their self worth.
Photographers talking to photographers, nothing to do with you.

Now i ask you, Why are you trying to exploit the young and budding photographers?

The pros do not compete in the same market, again go read from the start.
My skills would not be of interest to you as my shots are of little/no commercial value
i shoot for fun

And if you call me "insulting", do you call the people who PMed me "shameless"? (More than 20 PMs and counting) And how about people who posted their services for a low price?

Now you are calling the photogs who PM you shameless?
the same photogs who is going to shoot your ROM?
Wah, you are really insulting them now
you said it, not me.

Am really wondering why pros are stopping financial-contraint parties from looking for services to suit their budgets. I mean, grow up, get a life. Not everybody earns close to you and I am not robbing you.

again, read from the start. no one is stopping anyone, this is a public forum
you keep going on and on about "being less fortunate", do you need help?
There was once, I too was less fortunate. Had no money to eat lunch even.
you cannot be that bad right? you have computer and internet connection
and time to post in forums.
Anyway, i worked hard and made sure that i do something about it.
complaining will not make you any more fortunate.

I think you are the one that needs to grow up, photogs also have families to feed you know.
Robbing? oh that is against the law you know?
Again i repeat I do not earn my living out of photography
I am talking to other photographers about the state of the industry and what can be done about it.

So, you need not overeact to such threads. If you're really unhappy about it you might want to check with CASE?

CASE is not needed here as there were no transactions in the first place.
We are talking to one another, is that wrong? Look who is overeacting?

Wah very long story, so to cut it short, you are just an example
another person asking for free/cheap services
happen to post in the wrong place and at the wrong time
it s not personal, i have stated that in your tread
and was replying to hawaiisg and not to you.
is hawaiisg your HTB?

I am a photographer talking to other photographers about the industry
what is wrong with that?

Good luck on your ROM shoot with the photog you just called shameless.

 

[ortega]

There's 20 over forum mates who are out of their minds.. Or desperate for money........

now i really worry :sweat:
and she said that she wasn't insulting

I wonder what the 20 over forum mates will think if they know what she tought of them

 

[snowspeeder]

Well said, bro.

I think regardless of how much a photographer charges, it is important that photographers in general (the new and wannabies) need to have a sense of self-worth in order to gain the kind of respect he/she deserves. Of course, for one to earn that level of respect from clients and potential clients, a lot had to be done -- and its not as simple as pressing the shutter button alone.

Hence, I'm also in support toward the proactive education stance taken here by many who are either pros or hobbyists.

:thumbsup:

 

[ortega]

thank you all for reading my rantings

back to business

once upon a time canned drinks costs $1 (not too long ago) at the kopitiam
now they all charge $1.20 at least, did anyone of them go out of business?
that is because all of them charged the same amount and some charged higher
everyone of them benifitted

mind you, we all know that their cost for that canned drink is around 0.35 cents

so, our equipment cost go up by about 150%
and the equipment does not last as long as b4
now we need to do PP and we need to buy computers
batteries, chargers, memory ... ... ...

we all know how expansive that is, easily can come up to 10K
how many $200 shoot do you need to do, to recover your cost
you would need to do 50 $200 shoots to cover your costs

that is costs not profit, so you are not making money yet, until you cover all your costs.
and you need to do it b4 your equipment becomes obsolete or the electronics dies.

after your equipment dies you would need to buy it again.
it goes round and round again and again

come on, i am not saying don't undercut or charge cheap
but be realistic, don't under charge yourself
you, your skills and your equipment are worth more than that.

be confident and say no to below your value rate.
we wil need to lose a few jobs at first, but in the long run
when/if the market rate is set, everyone benifits