Standard of Photography low?


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ivan_limm

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#1
I'm a regular browser both at Offstone and here at Clubsnap. There are definitely more registered users here at Clubsnap but somehow, I personally feel the number of good photographs posted up here are incredibly little compared to the number of members.

Am I the only one or do other people feel that some of the photographs posted up here are nothing more than snapshots that people try to pass off as art?

After a few months of viewing both Offstone and Clubsnap, I cannot help feel that the standard at Offstone is significantly higher. The pictures there are worthy of viewing in my humble opinion.

Though there are a few reasonably good photographers here, it seems the majority are pro-amatuers with pro equipment as well as equipment collectors.

Sometimes, I feel the owners are not doing justice to their equipment. I was just browsing some of the photographs earlier on today and this guy had a Nikon D100 and another one had Canon D10 and both of them had photographs which they put up for critique and honestly, I felt both were merely mediocre snapshots.

You know what I do when i see these kinds of posts? i am literally ---->:bsmilie:

Not pointing fingers at anyone or accusing anybody of anything. Sense there will be a lot of flak soon too.
 

Tweek

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#2
Originally posted by ivan_limm
You know what I do when i see these kinds of posts? i am literally ---->:bsmilie:
Well, instead of :bsmilie: , maybe you could have given some suggestions to improve the shots?

At least we are trying. Yes we may not "deserve" such equipment but we're striving to do better each time we post. And part of the motivation and inspiration comes from constructive and meaningful comments we get from the critiques. Nobody starts off as a master, everyone starts somewhere. Unless one makes no improvement then he/she needs to reflect upon himself. But so far, I have seen many here in clubsnap who have made tremendous improvement. I mean, hey, some guys here only started photography for a year or less.

Yes, I do enjoy looking at the many excellent works posted in offstone. But at the same time, I also enjoy the young, vibrant, although amateurish environment in clubsnap. I guess clubsnap has a different focus: to also help budding photographers get their feet up.
 

MoriMori

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#3
I think ultimately people should enjoy taking pictures whether or not they are mediocre. We all have to start somewhere. Some are born with talent for seeing good artistic shots. The rest of us lesser humans just have to work at it.

To dictate that a posted picture should have artistic merit or be able to please some casual browser just smacks of elitism.
 

Wolfgang

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#4
We are all entitled to our observation but i do echo Tweek's answer. While some shots may not be top drawer but the point is, these are often beginners and people who are just starting out in their photographic journey.

Ivan_Limm, since you are more exposed (pun not intended) or used to viewing better pictures, it wuld help all the budding photographers here if you could lend a hand and post your own critiques and by doing so, the photographers themselves can learn and improve and over-all and at the same time, you'll be helping to raise the standard (that you deem low) of photography here.

Like i say, no harm, no foul. We are all entitled. I'm sure alot of newbies here would be more than thrilled to hear from you.

:)
 

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#5
as what i have mentioned in Offstone.

offstone provides free posting of photos there. so it's easy to put the photos up for everyone to view.

i think it's as simple as that.

sam
 

clive

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I think ultimately people should enjoy taking pictures whether or not they are mediocre. We all have to start somewhere.
yupz :thumbsup:
 

Andy Ho

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#7
Hi Ivan,

I strongly agreed with what you've just pointed out. I have long noticed this but I am quite reserved about bringing this up as it can get quite sensitive here. It might even be worst than the Canon vs. Nikon crap that we see every now and then.

There are basically 3 types of camera owners here. Namely, the Photographer, the Cameraman, and the Artist.

1) The Photographer: One who has passion about achieving the very best shots. Equipment is secondary but do occasionally drool for the more expensive ones (but which passionate photographer wouldn't?).

2) The Cameraman: One who knows everything about the equipments, is like a walking encyclopedia for the latest and newest cameras and lenses, but is crappy when it comes to showing pictures.

3) The Artist: One who belongs in a society and class of it's own. Though quite similar to Group One, there are some significant differences here. Believing in capturing pictures as a form of art, is not very sociable to other photographers, and one who doesn't bother what equipment he/she is given as long as there is a possibilty of creating pictures.

Before I begin, let me point out that I am no saint here. Though I belong to group One, the Photographer, I find myself slacking in terms of my photography passion and vision.

I have over the time surfing on Clubsnap found out that the majority of members here belongs to Group Two. Many of whom are immature in their photography skills, and harbours the impression that the best or latest high-tech equipments would very much help them in acquiring a better picture from what was initially deemed a lousy shot fit for the trash.

Unless people wise up and open their eyes to see beyond the boundaries, they will more often than not, not be able to see the horizon. Many fail to realise that a good photograph is made up not only of films, digital files, and papers but is in fact more of personal vision. Unless one has an open mind-set and perspective to see things beyond the boundaries and horizon, there is always that persistent crave to just snap away at anything whether moving, or non moving, and ending up with no more than some mediocre shots.

Many complaint about bad lighting on outdoor shoot but is it true that we can get nowhere with bad lighting? As photographers, it is our part to create pictures that sing. How about considering some alternative angles or vantage point that minimises the effect of a bad lighting? To me, as long as there is light, it is good lighting.

Just to add an example... world class multi award photojournalist Steve McCurry does not shoot in good lighting because his eyes are very sensitive to the sun. Why don't we ask ourselves, what are we missing out? Are we being bogged down by all these Golden Rules that was imposed on us by some photo clubs with a fixed mind-set that can't see that photography is about all about art? Art is freedom of expression, a positive creation, a vision of personality, and wanton longing to break free from bondage that causes our mind to die.

So people, if you are sincerely longing to be a good photographer, look beyond the boundaries and tell yourself, "I am going to make the most out this possibly and make my shots sing."

My quote, "For it is with previsualisation and vision that wonders are created, and it is with this that the ordinary seems extraordinary."

Regards,

Andy Ho
http://andyho.clubsnap.org/gallery/
 

meng

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Apr 19, 2003
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#8
all are right here.
Esp. i think that waht ivan_limm mentioned about the pro-equipments and D100 and D10 are quite true. No doubt everyone is learning here, but why spend the huge bomb on a pro-cam when the pictures produced might not be as good as those from a simple and cheap cam? Just something to think about. Perhaps, reflect and really think through before chasing after the equipment race.

The same as computers and mobile phones and others. (I'm still using a Celeron 300 to post this msg and my work, and using Motorola V3688 for 3 years now, as long as they serve my needs and work well, I see no point and wasteful to chase after those new models etc)

Meanwhile, keep learning and improving.
 

Gunjack

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#9
Clubsnap has become too big for its own good, too many pics to view, both good and bad. Does not seem to have a focus. Well, but it's still good for quick response and the buy and sell section!
 

Andy Ho

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#10
Originally posted by Wolfgang
We are all entitled to our observation but i do echo Tweek's answer. While some shots may not be top drawer but the point is, these are often beginners and people who are just starting out in their photographic journey.

Ivan_Limm, since you are more exposed (pun not intended) or used to viewing better pictures, it wuld help all the budding photographers here if you could lend a hand and post your own critiques and by doing so, the photographers themselves can learn and improve and over-all and at the same time, you'll be helping to raise the standard (that you deem low) of photography here.

Like i say, no harm, no foul. We are all entitled. I'm sure alot of newbies here would be more than thrilled to hear from you.

:)
Hi Wolfgang,

What you've just pointed out makes every bit of sense. I do at times pointed out some tips here and there. I believe others are helping out too. Sometimes, people received it happily. Sometimes they don't. For those who don't, they either kept themselves reserved or they trash back at you. Is this necessary? I remember once there was a so called Professional Photographer who posted a series of crap pictures in another web site for criticism. After I gave a few comments, I was very much challenged by him. The truth always hurts doesn't it?

Having been in-charged of a photo library before, you may not need to be able to take great pictures but is still able to see and discern between a good and lousy shot. But the honest truth is, how many are actually receptive to your comments? Not many, especially those touting a big camera and heavy lenses. It is the PRIDE and EGO factor I guess.

Regards,

Andy Ho
http://andyho.clubsnap.org/gallery/
 

neptune

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#11
I think alot of surfers here are not even sure what a good or great photo looks like. Thats why the critiques are not forthcoming. Most are more interested in the male passion of gadgets and equipment ...what is latest and fastest and most of all what is ' value' for money.I guess interest has to start from somewhere but generally alot of clubsnappers have forgotten why they own the camera in the first place. Lastly I feel that harsh critiques are also not well tolerated here and hence the scarcity of genuine opinions reflected when giving comments.
 

StreetShooter

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Jan 17, 2002
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#12
Well, son, if ya hung around long enough, you'd be able to see the improvement in the shots posted by dem youngsters as they grow up. Why, Tomshen was just a little kid when he came onto this forum, and now look at the gorgeous shots he's putting out! Then there's Agp4x and many others. Well, OK, Megaweb started out good already, but he's different.

And ya know what? Their pictures started getting better when they upgraded their cameras, not just their skills.

So, yeah, dun gimme that crap about the equipment not mattering. It does. There's no way an A40 or A70 can come close to producing the type of shot you can get from a 70-200 f2.8 lens. But so does being thick-skinned, posting your shots for critique, and also learning from the other people who post their shots.

Anyway, between wanking over artistic merit and wanking over equipment, I'd rather wank over equipment any time. Equipment you can buy, artistic cred you can't. :devil:

By the way, there are some pretty good portfolios around. Take a look at Andy Ho's....
 

Wolfgang

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#13
Originally posted by StreetShooter
Well, son, if ya hung around long enough, you'd be able to see the improvement in the shots posted by dem youngsters as they grow up. Why, Tomshen was just a little kid when he came onto this forum, and now look at the gorgeous shots he's putting out! Then there's Agp4x and many others. Well, OK, Megaweb started out good already, but he's different.

And ya know what? Their pictures started getting better when they upgraded their cameras, not just their skills.

So, yeah, dun gimme that crap about the equipment not mattering. It does. There's no way an A40 or A70 can come close to producing the type of shot you can get from a 70-200 f2.8 lens. But so does being thick-skinned, posting your shots for critique, and also learning from the other people who post their shots.

Anyway, between wanking over artistic merit and wanking over equipment, I'd rather wank over equipment any time. Equipment you can buy, artistic cred you can't. :devil:

By the way, there are some pretty good portfolios around. Take a look at Andy Ho's....
Hey Doc, i knew this was too good for yout to miss. ;) :bsmilie: :p
 

I

ivan_limm

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#14
yup streetshooter, maybe you're right....

hey, i bet Bill Gates or the Sultan of Brunei are really fantastic photographers, considering they are really rich and can buy top end equipment.

just my 2 cents.
 

Andy Ho

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#15
Originally posted by ivan_limm
yup streetshooter, maybe you're right....

hey, i bet Bill Gates or the Sultan of Brunei are really fantastic photographers, considering they are really rich and can buy top end equipment.

just my 2 cents.
:bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie:
 

Wolfgang

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#16
Originally posted by ivan_limm
yup streetshooter, maybe you're right....

hey, i bet Bill Gates or the Sultan of Brunei are really fantastic photographers, considering they are really rich and can buy top end equipment.

just my 2 cents.
Mate;

Take what he said with a huge fistful of salt... :) Like he said, hang around long enough and you will know that Streetshooter himself isn't beyond dishing out some caustic comments here and there... :p
 

zekai

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#17
actually, we cannot judge by equipment.
It is not fair of you to comment that so and so pic are mediocre even though he is using a d100 0r 10d.

actually we all progress from lousy(raw) to mediocre to ok to good to WOW!!!

you cannot take away those process. Maybe the mediocre shots are rightly the photographers in their learning phase.

I applaude all who post their pics whether banal, crude, interesting, artistic because they are willing to learn and take criticisms. They are also brave because once in a while they get criticise by funni people for not producing shots worthy of their camera.

You are right only in that you are going to get a lot of flak.
 

I

ivan_limm

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#18
posting pictures with the aim of getting constructive critiscm and and learning is great!

however, again in my personal opinion, many post their pics with the motive of "showing off", like "hey, i took this shot and i think its really nice, any comments?" then hope people say stuff like :thumbsup: or great shot! to reassure them that their pictures are great. and the cycle continues.

i often see people giving true opinions and giving negative comments about the picture and honestly, some people get very defensive and aggressively defend their pictures and some get sarcastic or even vicious.

so yeah, if its really with the aim of getting constructive critism, then great!
 

Andy Ho

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#19
Originally posted by zekai
actually we all progress from lousy(raw) to mediocre to ok to good to WOW!!!

you cannot take away those process. Maybe the mediocre shots are rightly the photographers in their learning phase.
...and in my case? To worst... Sometimes people do slack down somewhere, sometimes... :embrass:

Andy Ho
http://andyho.clubsnap.org/gallery/
 

Falcon

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#20
So far I have not come across any who post for the sake of showing off. Many are here to share and even more are here to learn.
 

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