Should a New User still buy a Micro Four Thirds Camera?


Pitachu

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By now I am sure everyone has read that Olympus has sold its imaging division to JIP.
At the same time, it looks like that there is a commitment for a smooth transition
and plans for Olympus and JIP to keep it going at least for another 1 to 2 years for the new
products to be launched.

Being photographers, all of us have friends and relatives asking us for advice when they
want to get started in photography.

For me, I always ask them a series of questions to find out their needs first.

What is their top priority?
a) High Resolution & Dynamic Range
b) Videos
c) Enviromentally Sealed Body and Lenses
d) Portability
e) Kinds of Photography and required Focal Lengths
f) Other features eg. Articulated Screen
g) Budget

I always encouraged them to look thru the Model entire range of lenses to make
sure that it has the lenses they may be getting in the future.

I would also encourage them to go to a friendly camera shop to try out
the cameras first to see if they like the weight, balance and placement
of buttons etc. eg. My brother insists on having a camera where the
Aperture, Shutter Speed and Exp Comp. are shown clearly on physical
dials on the camera like the Fujifim XT2.

In the event if it end up to be Micro Four Third, of course now I will warn them
the risk of a M43 system being discontinued a few years later. But I do have a
couple of friends who travel a lot like me and like the idea of a very compact
but capable DSLR eg. EM5 Mk3 where I can use it for so many different purposes

eg. Some of them are surprised that I bring along a 120mm equivalent F2.8 Macro lenses
with me. If you are into Macro shots of flowers, insects etc, check it out.
It is a super tiny lenses but super sharp by Olympus.

And I also had a friend who started birding on a Canon System and keep wishing
he can get a 600mm F4 lenses like the Olympus 300mm F4 (reach is 600mm).
With his higher resolution he can crop but he said he prefer to be able to zoom in first.

But I also have friends who just want to get a capable Mirrorless with 1 kit lens
which I recommend the Sony 6600.
 

ricohflex

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Now got 6400 and 6600.
To spare Olympus MFT extreme embarrassment, did not use the OM-D E-M1X as comparison model, although it is perfectly legitimate to do so.

Credit : cameradecision.com

APS-C A6500 camera :
(most important) The APS-C sensor format has a future and is not a dying format like MFT by mid 2020 and beyond.
Smaller
Lighter
Cheaper
Bigger range of lenses
But with a 1.63 times bigger sensor than MFT.



 

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swifty

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What universal truth are you trying to prove? You could have easily used an E-M5 Mk III which is just as valid a comparison depending on what tasks you're asking it to do.
Let's take a look at wildlife at 600mm FF equiv, since it's one area m43 might still have an advantange:


* hmmm... can't seem to embed the images so you might just need to click on the link.

Which would you rather use for shooting at 600mm?
The E-M1 III + 300mm f/4 is the fastest at 600mm f/8 equiv
The Sony + 100-400 is 600mm f/8.4 equiv
The E-M5 III + 100-300 is 600mm f/11 equiv
The Canon (substitute whatever R body you'd like) + 600mm f/11 is just that.

Suddenly the Sony's corner EVF for a more streamlined body doesn't look so attractive anymore. But the zoom makes it a more versatile combo of course and it has other benefits.
Again, you win some and you loose some.
 

ricohflex

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Canon RF 100-500mm f/4-7.1L IS USM in R5 crop 1.6x mode.
in crop mode 375mm gives 600mm
Maybe at f6
Lose 30 to 40% MP.
45MP drop to 27MP
 

swifty

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OK, sure. Since you're cropping in from FF rather than using a cropped sensor, there're freedom to crop as much or as little as you like. So it doesn't have to be a 1.6X crop from 375mm, it can be 1.5X crop from 400mm or whatever yields the best results.
We don't know the aperture at the intermediate FL of a 100-500 L yet but taking your guess of f/6 @ 375mm, a 1.6X crops gets you to 600mm f/9.6 equiv.
The known values are 100mm f/4.7 and 500mm f/7.1 and one would think 500mm f/7.1 yields the largest physical aperture available on this zoom so that would likely have the best equivalent results.
At 500mm, it needs just a 1.2X crop to get to 600mm @ f/8.5 equiv and 31MP.
Similar to the Sony with 100-400 combo and guess what, similar in size too (similar lens size but larger body on the Canon).
You win some and you loose some.
 

Pitachu

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The R5 crop mode is for EF-S lenses.
You cannot use it on a RF lenses.
Crop mode is usually for Full Frame camera to use APS-C lenses in case you do not know
or pretend not to know?

Canon EF-S lenses are pathetic, with only 250mm max range.
Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS

Canon RF 100-500mm f/4-7.1L IS USM in R5 crop 1.6x mode.
in crop mode 375mm gives 600mm
Maybe at f6
Lose 30 to 40% MP.
45MP drop to 27MP
 

Pitachu

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Canon finally realize the niche market which M43 has and try to copy.
Because of physics limitations, they are forced to come up with F7.1 and F11 lenses.
But the moment you try to use a 2x TC on them, you realize the problem.

As mentioned, I rather use a M43 system then to try all kinds of adapters
and end up with a F22 lenses as the only aperture to use. This is what happen
when you fix a 2x TC on the RF 600mm F11 lenses.

You just need to use the right tool for the right job.
Full Frame can not have all the advantages of M43
(and APS-C or even 1" sensors!)

For anyone who need 1200mm F8, I can comfortably recommend
an Olympus + 300mm F4 + 2xTC.

But to recommend
an Canon R5 + 600mm F11 x 2xTC
and end up with F22 only to use,
it just does not make any sense.

Canon RF 100-500mm f/4-7.1L IS USM in R5 crop 1.6x mode.
in crop mode 375mm gives 600mm
Maybe at f6
Lose 30 to 40% MP.
45MP drop to 27MP
 

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ricohflex

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But to recommend
an Canon R5 + 600mm F11 x 2xTC
and end up with F22 only to use,
it just does not make any sense.
I noticed you said cannot AF at F22 with the 2x TC.
But the DP Review guy tried 600mm with 2x TC and proved R5 can AF.
And he reported accordingly. So I bring your attention to his report.

Personally I would not recommend the 600mm or 800mm even without the 2x TC.
I tried the 800mm in a camera shop with the R5. Without the 2x TC.
I can take a photo indoors.
The AF was struggling a bit because dim shop interior.
The resulting photo was alright due to the IS.
But I find that F11 is no fun to work with.
Not to mention F22 if 2x TC is used.
One more thing.
After buying this lens, you may seldom use it.

A RF 100 to 500 zoom would be more useful in various situations.
 

ricohflex

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The R5 crop mode is for EF-S lenses.
You cannot use it on a RF lenses.
Crop mode is usually for Full Frame camera to use APS-C lenses in case you do not know
or pretend not to know?

Canon EF-S lenses are pathetic, with only 250mm max range.
Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS
Oh, I did not know that.
Thanks for teaching me something new today.
Obviously you are the expert.

This article by another expert who wrote an article in snapshot.canon-asia.com has something to say.

 

swifty

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Pitachu: Cropping in post processing from the full FF image has the same effect as cropping in camera. So it doesn't matter what lens you put in front of it, as long as you can mount it (either natively or via an adapter).
In both cases you're just using a smaller part of the frame to represent the full image except cropping in post, you're not bound by what cropping modes the camera gives you nor do you have to crop from the centre.

This is when pixel density becomes an advantage.
If you had a FF sensor the same pixel density as a m43 sensor, there would be no difference to the final image whether you cropped it from the FF image or whether you shot it from m43 with regards to final resolution.
Eg. an 80MP FF sensor has roughly the same pixel density as a 20MP m43 sensor. If you cropped a 20MP portion of the FF image, it'll occupy the same sensor surface area as m43 and therefore have the same characteristics as if you shot it on a 20MP m43 sensor.
Similarly, if you had a 35.55MP 1.5X APS-C sensor or 31.25MP 1.6X APS-C sensor, cropping a 20MP portion will also be the same as using a native 20MP m43 sensor. Note Canon has a 32MP 1.6X APS-C sensor, and a pretty good one at that.

A consequence of having the high pixel density on larger sensors is you have a much larger total sensor resolution. This can be a good or bad thing depending on whether you want the large total resolution.

But m43 only maintains the pixel density advantage over other larger formats if there are future developments in m43 sensors. I've advocated for an increase to around 27MP (6000X45000) in m43 to give 6000 pixels on the long side for 16:9 6K video as well as a reasonable boost to pixel density (equal to 108MP FF or 48MP 1.5X APS-C).
 

Pitachu

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Yes, in theory you can put any lens in front of any sensor, but that is provide the camera body manufacturer allow you to interface with it. In the case of R5, I think it just switch to Crop Mode when you attach a EF-S lenses to simulate itself as a APS-C camera
with a lower resolution.

I do know photographers who use high resolution Full Frame for birding and crop during post process as Full Frame 600mm F4 is out of reach for most photographers. And I have tried it, when my telephoto lens still does not have the reach. But the bird or insect is so small in the viewfinder that it is quite hard to see the details.



Pitachu: Cropping in post processing from the full FF image has the same effect as cropping in camera. So it doesn't matter what lens you put in front of it, as long as you can mount it (either natively or via an adapter).
In both cases you're just using a smaller part of the frame to represent the full image except cropping in post, you're not bound by what cropping modes the camera gives you nor do you have to crop from the centre.
 

swifty

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Yes, in theory you can put any lens in front of any sensor, but that is provide the camera body manufacturer allow you to interface with it. In the case of R5, I think it just switch to Crop Mode when you attach a EF-S lenses to simulate itself as a APS-C camera
with a lower resolution.
Yes, so the camera does a forced crop when a cropped lens is mounted to avoid the significant vignetting that would otherwise occur. In some FF cameras there are options to revert to shooting with the full frame sensor even when cropped lenses are mounted and this is useful because some cropped lenses actually have image circles much larger than their stated crop. Years ago I used a 35mm f/1.8 DX lens on my D700 but not in cropped mode but in FF sensor mode because that APS-C lens had an unusually large image circle almost covering FF.

But you can still use FF lenses in cropped mode in-camera. I haven’t looked at this option on the R5 but this has been available on virtually every FF model from every manufacturer so I can’t see why EOS R cameras including the R5 wouldn’t allow this.

I do know photographers who use high resolution Full Frame for birding and crop during post process as Full Frame 600mm F4 is out of reach for most photographers. And I have tried it, when my telephoto lens still does not have the reach. But the bird or insect is so small in the viewfinder that it is quite hard to see the details.
This again is what I mean about pixel density.
Take for example the D850 and D500 that have the same pixel density. An APS-C crop from the 45MP D850 yields 20MP which is exactly the same as a native APS-C D500. A D850 in cropped mode is exactly like using a D500.
Except the OVF problem you speak of as the OVF in DSLRs do not magnify the APS-C portion (it just outlines it) when set to cropped mode so you end up looking at tiny subjects in the viewfinder on the FF DSLR.
But this won’t be an issue with mirrorless EVFs as it’ll display the magnified cropped portion in cropped mode.
 

Pitachu

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I am not sure if the R5 crop mode works with Full Frame lenses, but even if you can,
you would not want to do it, as the resolution drops from 45megapixel to 17 megapixel.

I do not remember my EOS 5D and 80D have a magnify view,
Again, I am not sure about the R5.
but my Olympus have a nice magnify mode when I do Manual Focus.


Yes, so the camera does a forced crop when a cropped lens is mounted to avoid the significant vignetting that would otherwise occur. In some FF cameras there are options to revert to shooting with the full frame sensor even when cropped lenses are mounted and this is useful because some cropped lenses actually have image circles much larger than their stated crop. Years ago I used a 35mm f/1.8 DX lens on my D700 but not in cropped mode but in FF sensor mode because that APS-C lens had an unusually large image circle almost covering FF.

But you can still use FF lenses in cropped mode in-camera. I haven’t looked at this option on the R5 but this has been available on virtually every FF model from every manufacturer so I can’t see why EOS R cameras including the R5 wouldn’t allow this.


This again is what I mean about pixel density.
Take for example the D850 and D500 that have the same pixel density. An APS-C crop from the 45MP D850 yields 20MP which is exactly the same as a native APS-C D500. A D850 in cropped mode is exactly like using a D500.
Except the OVF problem you speak of as the OVF in DSLRs do not magnify the APS-C portion (it just outlines it) when set to cropped mode so you end up looking at tiny subjects in the viewfinder on the FF DSLR.
But this won’t be an issue with mirrorless EVFs as it’ll display the magnified cropped portion in cropped mode.
 

swifty

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I think I'm not explaining it very well as it appears to be causing more confusion but I'll give it another go.

I am not sure if the R5 crop mode works with Full Frame lenses, but even if you can,
you would not want to do it, as the resolution drops from 45megapixel to 17 megapixel.
I'm saying the R5 can definitely support cropping when used with FF lenses.
This can be done either in-camera or in post-processing. I can't see any reasons why Canon wouldn't allow in-camera cropping using their FF lenses.

I'm not familiar with the exact method Canon cameras will implement their cropping mode but if it's anything like Nikons (and it likely will be), it just takes a read-out from a smaller portion of the sensor. A quick look at the R5 specs tells me they have various crop modes such as changing of aspect ratio (it's still cropping) as well as a 1.6x cropping mode in-camera.
And it is useful to allow this cropping in-camera, even with a drop to 17MP when you've reached the limits of your optical reach eg. at the 500mm end of the 100-500 L lens. But if the subject still doesn't fill your frame, it is useful to use the in-camera cropping mode because you're just chucking away the surrounding extra pixels that the subject doesn't occupy anyways and you end up with smaller files where your subject occupies more of the frame. In many instances, it also allows the camera to increase frame rate and/or have a larger buffer because you're offloading less data with the smaller files.

I do not remember my EOS 5D and 80D have a magnify view,
Again, I am not sure about the R5.
but my Olympus have a nice magnify mode when I do Manual Focus.
Both those cameras are DSLRs. Your 5D and 80D won't have a magnified view in the optical viewfinder (OVF) because as far as I know, no DSLR offer an OVF magnification change when shot in cropped mode. .
They just mask out the area that will be cropped or outline it with a smaller frame within the larger frame.
You may be able to get a magnified view on the rear LCD in cropped mode on a DSLR though.

On mirrorless cameras it is different. There are no OVFs, just EVFs. And one advantage of the EVF is the ability to display just the active area that will be shot. So if you're shooting in cropped mode, just the cropped portion of the scene will be shown occupying the entire EVF. When you're not in cropped mode, it'll display the framing from the uncropped field of view.

I have made some assumptions about Canon cameras eg. R5 because that's the way cropping normally works in-camera. But I will need to double check that is exactly how it is implemented on Canon cameras.
 

ricohflex

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How about Canon M6 Mk2 with adapter + Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM Lens ?
32MP.
1.6x will bring it to 640mm?
 

swifty

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How about Canon M6 Mk2 with adapter + Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM Lens ?
32MP.
1.6x will bring it to 640mm?
Yes, greater reach and pixel density so you get 32MP at 640mm but f/9 equivalent so a bit slower.
Also no EVF or IBIS on the M6 II as well as less native lens choices in EOS-M although access to the largest lineup in EF lenses. But if you feel EOS R is the future, no adapters for EOS R lenses either.
 

ricohflex

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Optional EVF available for M6 Mk2 . Must buy separately. Canon did that to bring down the cost of entry.
 

Pitachu

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Honestly, if I am a Canon user already have a couple of EF or EFS lenses, I would just continue using my 80D to use
the Canon EF 100-400. The purpose of the M6 is for lightweight and portability. To pair it with a gigantic EF lenses
with an adapter that weighs another 150g defeats the purpose.

As a new user without any system, I would definitely choose a EM5 Mk3 with wide range of Olympus and Panasonic Leica lenses,
which are much lighter and affordable. I dont need to add EVF or force myself to use Full Frame lenses with adapters because the EF-M lenses are so limited at the moment.
 

ricohflex

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But if you feel EOS R is the future, no adapters for EOS R lenses either.
My off topic comment - one of my friends is looking for an adapter to fit Leica L mount lens (for SL2) onto a Canon R5 body (retaining AF capability) which he has paid for and awaiting delivery. So far Internet search has not found anything.
 

ricohflex

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Canon M6 Mk2 was released in September 2019.
That was less than 1 year ago.

See how short the product innovation cycle is, nowadays. No wonder Olympus MFT died.

You got your wish for IBIS in Canon M cameras.

Rumour only. Future Canon M6 Mk3 or M50 Mk2