Portrait Photographers, are you giving away high resolution images to customers?
- Thread starter catchlights
- Start date
this is what I'm trying to share with anyone.
let say a bridal studio offer $2400.00 for a bridal portrait package come with album come with 20 photos. so if customers happy with the outcome and decide to purchase 20 more photos, so they will spend $3800.00 in total. as such, both the bridal studio and the customer are happy.
if another customer have budget issue, only able to spend $2400. that won't be any problem as they still able to get their portrait done, and the bridal studio still able to make a profit from this customer.
but if a bridal studio will to give away all images, for sure they lost a huge sum of potential profit, and the worst part is no quality control, the images may printed badly and affect their reputation. as such, they might be out of business very soon.
I am in a similar position, but i clearly state what can and cannot be done, what is delivered and what is not delivered in the SLA (Service Level Agreement) without which, like catchlights said, you may find yourself creating images that other "anyhow print one", unable to manage qualityI'm not a photographer per se but in a trade that require photography.
My view is that since the client paid up in full for the contract, it is only right that all high res images associated with the job should be handed over. However, we do appreciate repeat business so we will definitely archive the work which as an added service will reproduce those same high res images when called upon for additional copies.
Clients sometimes want us to reproduce again all those delivered files as they have lost it along the way.
-- marios
I am in a similar position, but i clearly state what can and cannot be done, what is delivered and what is not delivered in the SLA (Service Level Agreement) without which, like catchlights said, you may find yourself creating images that other "anyhow print one", unable to manage quality
-- marios
Not sure marios is in a similar position as I cos I'm not in the photography or bridal industry. I'm in the Engineering field and photos is only the start of the process where I'll design products based on it. Clients sometimes want those hi-res photos to accompany the prototypes and most times will loose it cos photos no longer hold any importance as compared to the prototype.
As it is not convenient to always go out and grab another shot simply the client loose a copy, we tend to archive them in case they want another copy. As catchlights said, once the job's done and money handed over, it's considered finished. Any replacement request is always chargeable no matter it was archived or you had to go out and shoot again.
Im not in the photography business neither. Photography is but a facilitator to some of my work. Other photography stuff that I do, is for free - for personal reasons. But the thought of archiving AND setting a price for replacements never crossed my mind, especially since I archive and back up extensively (using tapes, dvd's and multiple hard disks).
-- marios
I think this is the right way to go forward. I'm just not sure if many local wedding photographers are doing the same thing?
Anyone can shed some light?
There is no right or wrong way in terms of giving out the high resolution images.
If one think they have charge enough to justify the release of the high resolution images (assuming that they have contract that transfer the right back to them), by all mean, release it.
The thing is, if you return the high resolution images, it is easier to get the assignment.
At the end of the day, one would have to decide how much they need to run a sustainable business.
If your monthly expenses is X and your hopeful profit is Y and you know that on average you do Z volume per month, it is not difficult to calculate the whole equation.
X + Y = Z*charge.
Lets say (Linear assumption) if a good studio that has outgoing (X) of 15k a month, looking at 15k nett (Y)... number of shoot Z = 360 a year or 30/month average... so the charge should be 1k per shoot.
If you think by releasing the high resolution is justified at to be released at $1.5k per job, then it is justifiable to release when client pays $1.5k per session.
This is the methods I use to calculate when to release the high resolution images, by mind you the above figures are assumption only (but nonetheless achievable target)
Please don't flame me by telling me that it is not possible to do 30 weddings a month... I based the example on portrait work rather than wedding work.
Similar to those who do wedding full time. Just vary the equation and do your simple math... the rest is pretty easy (in terms of calculation, getting the volume is another question, and getting your volume to pay your asking price is another question).
Hart
If one think they have charge enough to justify the release of the high resolution images (assuming that they have contract that transfer the right back to them), by all mean, release it.
The thing is, if you return the high resolution images, it is easier to get the assignment.
At the end of the day, one would have to decide how much they need to run a sustainable business.
If your monthly expenses is X and your hopeful profit is Y and you know that on average you do Z volume per month, it is not difficult to calculate the whole equation.
X + Y = Z*charge.
Lets say (Linear assumption) if a good studio that has outgoing (X) of 15k a month, looking at 15k nett (Y)... number of shoot Z = 360 a year or 30/month average... so the charge should be 1k per shoot.
If you think by releasing the high resolution is justified at to be released at $1.5k per job, then it is justifiable to release when client pays $1.5k per session.
This is the methods I use to calculate when to release the high resolution images, by mind you the above figures are assumption only (but nonetheless achievable target)
Please don't flame me by telling me that it is not possible to do 30 weddings a month... I based the example on portrait work rather than wedding work.
Similar to those who do wedding full time. Just vary the equation and do your simple math... the rest is pretty easy (in terms of calculation, getting the volume is another question, and getting your volume to pay your asking price is another question).
Hart
sorry to cut in , but i read this point, was not aware of it.
anyways, it doesn't matter, i always stress that point when selling images here.
my question is out of interest - what about the case where say, someone from australia wants to purchase rights to use high res image, and there were no details fleshed out - does anyone know who the copyright belongs to for such a case?
It will depend if how you sell the right... either you sell the whole copyright to them and they have the exclusive copyright or you simply sell the the right to use for particular use or you sell the right for them to use it anyway they want... or so call non-exclusive right of use...
It is really depend on how you want to sell it and there must be a statement to cover that.
Hope it helps.
Hart
so there is no default elsewhere? since lumiere stated that the default here seemed to be exclusive copyright, if there was nothing stated to the contrary.
i have had such dealings, but i always state it clearly, but i wonder what is the case if there is no detail being fleshed out.
thanks for taking the time to reply.
i have had such dealings, but i always state it clearly, but i wonder what is the case if there is no detail being fleshed out.
thanks for taking the time to reply.
from a business POV, for a job that require you to surrender all images, it means client will buy up the all the rights, so it is necessary to price it right since you are no longer able to make further profit from this particular job.
actually this is common when we at the day shooting film for weddings.
customers agreed with us that for the whole day we will shoot X rolls of film, and the additional rolls is at $Y.00, so we will ration ourself to limit to that amount of film being used, after the X-th rolls, we will let customer know that we will open the X+1 roll, X+2 roll etc.
and because we when enter the digital era, we think that, digital is free, so we start giving customers a few thousand images for a wedding. a CD is only cost $1, a roll of film cost $5, (not factor the processing and printing yet)
little we know that our time is not free, we actually spend more time shooting digital than film, we spend time behind the camera, we spend time behind the monitor, and yet we still let customers take advantage on us.. "don't need to use film liao, digital is FREE! so you should charge cheaper"
we also forget that we spend 3 to 4 times more to invest on shooting digital.
simple put it,so there is no default elsewhere? since lumiere stated that the default here seemed to be exclusive copyright, if there was nothing stated to the contrary.
i have had such dealings, but i always state it clearly, but i wonder what is the case if there is no detail being fleshed out.
thanks for taking the time to reply.
right to use/ reproduction rights = cheap
exclusive rights with limit time frame = not so cheap
sold the exclusive rights = just put him on the chopping board
anything has to come to a negotiation, you can find some reference from http://asmp.org/links/32
hope this help.
Hi Benjamin
Many thanks for the extra insights. I have been working on an SLA in the last couple of days. A search on Google with "agreement photographers" yields some really good stuff, including samples (searching for "service level agreement photographers" proves not very useful - it shifts into IT related SLAs). A good content point form exists here: http://digital-photography-school.com/wedding-photography-agreement-contract-tips
If anyone else would like to chip in with websites related to photography SLAs, feel free to do so (but preferably over the next couple of days).
-- marios
Hi Benjamin
Many thanks for the extra insights. I have been working on an SLA in the last couple of days. A search on Google with "agreement photographers" yields some really good stuff, including samples (searching for "service level agreement photographers" proves not very useful - it shifts into IT related SLAs). A good content point form exists here: http://digital-photography-school.com/wedding-photography-agreement-contract-tips
If anyone else would like to chip in with websites related to photography SLAs, feel free to do so (but preferably over the next couple of days).
-- marios
Stumbled on: http://www.brighthub.com/multimedia/photography/articles/14258.aspx
As always, embrace, modify, contribute..
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I am not a professional portrait photographer, but a customer on a few occasions. I have always worked with photographers who will give me ALL the high-res images. It will be part of the up-front negotiation. I do not care about the bulky album, etc... but I need ALL the high-res images.
I think photographers can work with any business model they choose, but they must state up-front, in no uncertain terms, what is included in the package, and what is the potential cost should the customer wish to print more photos, etc.
I know many friends and relatives who have been 'chopped' by these photographers, who will quote one rate in the beginning... and then urge the bride to choose more photos... and threaten to destroy the images and the associated memory of the event, if they do not pay more money to buy the images. My cousin and brother both spent about 8-10K for their wedding photoshoot because the cunning photographers work their way with the bride (they always do) after the photoshoot. Shame on them...
I think photographers can work with any business model they choose, but they must state up-front, in no uncertain terms, what is included in the package, and what is the potential cost should the customer wish to print more photos, etc.
I know many friends and relatives who have been 'chopped' by these photographers, who will quote one rate in the beginning... and then urge the bride to choose more photos... and threaten to destroy the images and the associated memory of the event, if they do not pay more money to buy the images. My cousin and brother both spent about 8-10K for their wedding photoshoot because the cunning photographers work their way with the bride (they always do) after the photoshoot. Shame on them...
Ken Sklute or was it one of his really trusted friends that once said that if you want to give away high resolution images, the client must spend the minimum amount determined by you the producer of those images.
I think that Ken's friend said that she would only let the images go when the client spends about $8k.
Others I know would cut down the size according to the price range that they have paid. Eg, spend $8k you get resolution size of A4, $15k A3 and so on and so forth.
Hope this helps and oh, Ken Sklute is a Canon Explorer of Light.
I think that Ken's friend said that she would only let the images go when the client spends about $8k.
Others I know would cut down the size according to the price range that they have paid. Eg, spend $8k you get resolution size of A4, $15k A3 and so on and so forth.
Hope this helps and oh, Ken Sklute is a Canon Explorer of Light.
If I were to work with Ken Sklute, and he were to say up front that he wants $8K for his service, which includes all images, then that's perfectly fine, considering his reputation and experience, which usually translates to pretty good images.
However, this is the typical scenario... we sign up for a wedding package at one of those bridal studios at Marina Square, Tanjong Pagar, or similar. We are told that the package includes photography, with a 20-30 page album, with no further details given. After the photography session, we are told that the package only includes 20-30 images, and all the other images will be destroyed. So, the 20-30 page album will only have 20-30 images, which is not nice (and they tell the bride this). They will work their way with the bride, to purchase more images, to form a montage-like album. The final bill for the photography alone will be $8-10k. The photographers involved are usually some no-name guy that shoots some Taiwanese-style over-exposed pictures... which is fine, but his services are not worth that much. However, the studios play a mind-game with the bride... and the groom has to pay (and sometimes tears are involved). Shameful tactics... but this is a very common modus operandi in Singapore.
We should educate our friends/family to avoid such chop-shops... and go for proper photographers. Their fees may appear higher up front, but the bill may be less, for higher quality work.
Completely agree.
Because of not being properly educated, most people will not see the black and white contract until everything is done and shot. Alternatively, people do not read the document before signing and just blindly sign.
Errr.... sadly a lot of people do not read what they sign or the terms and conditions of use... when was the last time that one read Adobe's terms of conditions for Photoshop? When was the last time one read terms and conditions for our new Mac?
Most of the time we all hope and pray that the other party is honest, good hearted and trust worthy.. !!!!
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