OT discussion from Antoniette.2 thread


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garou12

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i have no experence in studio portraiture, but i'll say GOOD CONTROL of lighting! haha at first when i saw the nick of antoniette i thought i would be going to see a french babe
black can still be french you know...
 

littlejt

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as in... u know.. antoinette was Queen of France and Navarre. so i thought she would be dressed up in those kind of dresses and stuff... anyway.. no point arguing on this anymore.. i was just a thought.
 

Deadpoet

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i have no experence in studio portraiture, but i'll say GOOD CONTROL of lighting! haha at first when i saw the nick of antoniette i thought i would be going to see a french babe
as in... u know.. antoinette was Queen of France and Navarre. so i thought she would be dressed up in those kind of dresses and stuff... anyway.. no point arguing on this anymore.. i was just a thought.
Not arguing, I am just pointing out the fact that your statement is very bigoted.
 

garou12

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as in... u know.. antoinette was Queen of France and Navarre. so i thought she would be dressed up in those kind of dresses and stuff... anyway.. no point arguing on this anymore.. i was just a thought.
then say you were expecting to see a white french woman instead of making people think you're being racial discriminatory even though that was not your intention.
 

#5
i have no experence in studio portraiture, but i'll say GOOD CONTROL of lighting! haha at first when i saw the nick of antoniette i thought i would be going to see a french babe
Wow, this comment made me stop, why cant a black person be french? Possibly one of the most idiotic posts ive seen in a while :nono: :thumbsd:

The shots are very good, the lighting is fantastic and post processing is good. Just watch out on the last one, it looks slightly tilted to me, a little off putting
 

Deadpoet

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Thanks for your comments everyone. I will work harder. This Antoniette is from Kenya. :)
Where Antoniette is from is really irrevelent. This was brought up by some "narrow minded" person, who spent all his life looking up from a well.

What matters with any photo is, with everyone's contribution, it delivers.

Of the 3 pictures in this I like no. 2.
 

waileong

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Wow, this comment made me stop, why cant a black person be french? Possibly one of the most idiotic posts ive seen in a while :nono: :thumbsd:

The shots are very good, the lighting is fantastic and post processing is good. Just watch out on the last one, it looks slightly tilted to me, a little off putting
I think these "anti-racist" remarks are being unnecessarily harsh. Stereotypes take a long time to die. And it doesn't necessarily mean that the person holding the stereotype is racist. For instance, most people would think that Chinese can eat pork, so if they make such an assumption without knowing the other person happens to be a Muslim convert, does that mean he was bigoted? Similarly, people here call all other parties "opposition" parties as if they are somehow lesser than the "ruling" party-- does that mean these people are bigoted?

The popular image of France is white. Immigration (both legal and illegal) has changed that in the last 20 years, but it will take a long time for people's stereotypes to catch up. Even our PM said in one of his NDP rally speeches that most people would feel uncomfortable if their children brought back a boyfriend/girlfriend of a different race to meet them, it's something so primal that it goes beyond conscious thinking and will take a long time to change, if it's at all possible.
 

roygoh

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I agree that the comments towards littlejt is inecessarily harsh.

Please focus the discussion on the photography.

Thanks!
-Roy
 

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I think littlejt's is fair comment...since there's one really famous Antoniette. Similar to an imagery the name lolita conjures up.

heeheehee thanks everyone! I'm always happy when someone likes my pictures. :angel:

Jupiter, cool. Do feel free to drop by my studio anytime for a chat or quick view. :)
 

garou12

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I think littlejt's is fair comment...since there's one really famous Antoniette. Similar to an imagery the name lolita conjures up.

heeheehee thanks everyone! I'm always happy when someone likes my pictures. :angel:

Jupiter, cool. Do feel free to drop by my studio anytime for a chat or quick view. :)
the arguement about marie antoniette doesn't really fly because if that was the case then if a girl was named denise, agnes, avril, alice, anne, audrey, celine and the list goes on and on; would expect lead someone to see a french woman since these names mentioned are all french and by right should conjure up an image of french womanhood.
 

waileong

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the arguement about marie antoniette doesn't really fly because if that was the case then if a girl was named denise, agnes, avril, alice, anne, audrey, celine and the list goes on and on; would expect lead someone to see a french woman since these names mentioned are all french and by right should conjure up an image of french womanhood.
And that's the point. This is not about being racist, the popular image of France is white. Although those who have been there know that Algerians, Muslims, Chinese, etc. are increasingly part of the French populace. But those who haven't been there-- why is it wrong to associate France with white? Even if he's holding on to a dated stereotype, how does it make him racist or bigoted?
 

garou12

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And that's the point. This is not about being racist, the popular image of France is white. Although those who have been there know that Algerians, Muslims, Chinese, etc. are increasingly part of the French populace. But those who haven't been there-- why is it wrong to associate France with white? Even if he's holding on to a dated stereotype, how does it make him racist or bigoted?
because it shows that his world view is dated...and that he isn't open enough to think that french is more things than just the color white.
 

waileong

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because it shows that his world view is dated...and that he isn't open enough to think that french is more things than just the color white.
That's not bigotry or racism. At worst, he's behind the times.

Racist is when people take on negative attitudes by virtue of race, eg. Jews are greedy, etc.

PS. I wouldn't put too much stock in names. Lots of people in Singapore call themselves "Mark" for instance. I wouldn't expect all of them to be Christians or Catholics, let alone be devout. So I wouldn't immediately think someone called Antoniette must be French, she could very well be some Ah Lian who thought the name is cool.
 

roygoh

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Harsh? So bigotry is now endorsed? Sorry, but I dont see anything wrong at all, except his remark.
If I think "bigoted" is not an accurate term for this case then how does that imply that I am endorsing bigotry?

If I say a person is not stealing does that mean I endorse stealing?

It is precisely this kind of false interprestation and taking things poeple said out of context that created all these unecessary argument and flaming.

Did littlejt say a black person cannot be french? He said the name "Antoniette" relates to a french queen for him, who is a white lady, so he is surprised to see a black woman in the picture. He may not have expressed it correctly but you guys are casting stones without giving a benefit of doubt or giving him a chance to clarify.

You post calling littlejt's post "idiotic" came after he has made an attempt to clarify his thoughts.

Who is the one being bigoted here?
 

garou12

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That's not bigotry or racism. At worst, he's behind the times.

Racist is when people take on negative attitudes by virtue of race, eg. Jews are greedy, etc.
stereotyping can have negatives and positives and in this case he's made the assumption that french is white. He may or may not have meant his comment to be interpreted as racist but the fact of the matter is that is how it has been interpreted. His direct quote is :" haha at first when i saw the nick of antoniette i thought i would be going to see a french babe" may not be laced with any derogatory intent but it does say that he has some kind of racial discrimination behind his words doesn't it? What this is just a faux pas on his part, prehaps he should just come out and admit that it was and that should put the matter to rest. Besides if he went according to your arguement about not putting much stock in names then he wouldn't have made the comments that led to this now would it?
 

waileong

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stereotyping can have negatives and positives and in this case he's made the assumption that french is white. He may or may not have meant his comment to be interpreted as racist but the fact of the matter is that is how it has been interpreted. His direct quote is :" haha at first when i saw the nick of antoniette i thought i would be going to see a french babe" may not be laced with any derogatory intent but it does say that he has some kind of racial discrimination behind his words doesn't it?
It's more accurate to say it's how you have interpreted it.

The reasonable interpretation is that he expected to see a white woman and saw a black woman instead.

Why is that racial discrimination? Did he say he hates black women?

And by the way, since you have accepted that this is stereotyping, may I point out that stereotyping <> bigotry and stereotyping <> racism. In fact, one can be racist without stereotyping, eg. some people hate Jews simply because of historical baggage.
 

garou12

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It's more accurate to say it's how you have interpreted it.

The reasonable interpretation is that he expected to see a white woman and saw a black woman instead.

Why is that racial discrimination? Did he say he hates black women?
so why then didn't he say that? What's interesting right now is that he is not the one saying anything to defend himself or clear up the air and you're the one doing all the debating that he should be doing. Don't you think he should be the one to explain himself? This is your faux pas to fix. It's his.
 

waileong

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Besides if he went according to your arguement about not putting much stock in names then he wouldn't have made the comments that led to this now would it?
Because I am me and he is he. Some people do think France is white, and a name like Antoniette refers to a white French woman. I ask again: why is that racist or bigoted? You've agreed that he has a dated world view. Does dated world view = racist, bigoted?
 

waileong

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so why then didn't he say that? What's interesting right now is that he is not the one saying anything to defend himself or clear up the air and you're the one doing all the debating that he should be doing. Don't you think he should be the one to explain himself? This is your faux pas to fix. It's his.
It's 2:11 am. He's probably asleep! I'm going too. Tata.

PS I do hope you'll have an answer to the question which I've asked you several times when I wake up. Namely, how does holding on to a dated world view make a person a bigot or a racist? Must clarify that the world view referred to is not specifically negative (ie eg that blacks are lazy bums), just one which has not kept up with the times (that France is white).
 

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