on Flash techniques


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Prismatic

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#1
Thread split from Ready Lights Action - Red Dawn


Great pictures. ^^
But I think the flash a tad too stong, maybe 2/3 stops over?
For the 3rd shot, shadow is almost visible even though the ceiling is qutie far away!

For high-contrast subjects, can try low-contrast films so the whites wun be too overpowering.
 

May 22, 2002
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#2
chenwei

your shuttle speed is a bit to fast... when using flash, try go as low as 1/10s or even slower to get ambience light... to flat without ambience light...
 

Prismatic

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#3
Originally posted by reignman77
chenwei

your shuttle speed is a bit to fast... when using flash, try go as low as 1/10s or even slower to get ambience light... to flat without ambience light...
Just wondering, if at 1/10, wun the subjects have motion blur even if the flash is on? So do you shoot only when the models pause momentarily during posing instead?
 

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#4
Originally posted by Prismatic
Just wondering, if at 1/10, wun the subjects have motion blur even if the flash is on? So do you shoot only when the models pause momentarily during posing instead?
the flash already FREEZE the model... slow speed is to capture the ambience light...
 

Prismatic

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#5
I know what you meant, but isn't 1/10 a bit too slow, plus with slow shutter speed, hand shake at longer focal length comes into effect. Usually for something like that, I shoot at about 1/30 or 1/45.
 

mpenza

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#6
Originally posted by reignman77
the flash already FREEZE the model... slow speed is to capture the ambience light...
camera shake plus model movement will lead to a pic that's not very sharp though.
 

May 22, 2002
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#7
Originally posted by Prismatic
I know what you meant, but isn't 1/10 a bit too slow, plus with slow shutter speed, hand shake at longer focal length comes into effect. Usually for something like that, I shoot at about 1/30 or 1/45.
try and u will know the effect... i have try on velvia... my subject on people are FREEZE... and the ambience lights are avaliable...

if use iso 400 slides, the ambience light will be brighter than velvia... if u use iso 400 slides to push to 1600, u can HAND HELD to do night shoot... but your grain on the picture will be sharper than your subject....

using 1/30 to 1/45, same lah, not much difference... but ambience lights are not as bright as 1/10....
 

May 22, 2002
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#8
Originally posted by mpenza
camera shake plus model movement will lead to a pic that's not very sharp though.
my reply maybe a bit hostile...

but have u try?? 1/10 is good for slides especially for velvia... 1/30 are good for neg... choose which ever u prefer... u can't use 1/30 for EVERY type of neg/slides... in photography, there is no short cut....

most of the time it depends on the distance and your flash's strenght...

i have try it that is why i can share... don't ask me to show or publish on the forum which most of u guys would... if u guys organise a slides show event, i'm more than willing to share all this...

flash photography is a pieces of art... to much flash flatens the pic, to little flash, spoils the pic... distance, composition, FLASH POWER, flim speed are important...

there are more to 1 question on each kind of pictures.... have to "meter" thru your eyes before u actually shoots it...

sometime, "BLUR" is a piece of art... if u want everthing to be sharp, use f22 1/10... u will HAVE sharp picture....

when come to fashion, if u want sharp pictures, unless u are FAST in manual focusing and the lights on stage gives u a reading of 1/125s OR more, which is unlikely.... if not, wait for model to STAND STILL for u to shoot....;p
 

mpenza

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#9
Even though I'm pretty new to photography, I've tried using slow shutter speed on MOVING subjects (immobile subjects are not much of a problem).

erm... no offence but have you check the slides for sharpness? They may appear sharp under a 4x loupe but under a 8x loupe, otherwise.

Anyway, it depends on the focal length used. try holding 210mm for 1/10s without additional support and get sharp pics with a super flash of MOVING subjects.

Also, as long as a flash gives out enough light for its intended purpose, the strength of the flash and probably distance do not matter. A more powerful and good flash will fire (only) enough to light up the subject (or less/more depending on the amount of flash compensation used) and not at full power all the time.

It depends on how much ambient light you want to capture. Some background are pretty distracting too and there's no good reason to want to include it.

On some cameras, we could use even 1/1000s (or faster) and achieve synchronisation with an external flash. Very few problems with freezing motion :) The background will be understandly dark though.
 

mpenza

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#10
Originally posted by reignman77
sometime, "BLUR" is a piece of art... if u want everthing to be sharp, use f22 1/10... u will HAVE sharp picture....
Nope. You're wrong. A moving subject would mean softness. Try it and you'll know :) A easy way to try would be to bring the camera besides the road, set up accordingly mounting on a tripod for added stability and shoot passing cars.
 

May 22, 2002
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#11
sharpness? i have PRINTED to 8" x 12", shown on projector. so what do u think... lope can't do much...

when coming to LONG distance shoot, MOST photographer will at less use a monopod... NO ONE would hand held unless using iso 1600 or 3200..... if u need to shoot long distance, U will not need a flash... it will be come a fill in instead of main light.... unless u use 2-3 stop extra power...

How do u determind "flash gives out enough light for the purpose", auto mode from flash??? try TTL with 20mm lens on a cose up to shoulder shoot.... see if u get a FLAT picture or a tone up picture... if u notice... the old timer photographers DON' use original flash... either build in or just a small flash that give them enough power to brighten up a little...

if u want subject to brighten up and the rest darken just becasue the background is distracting,er... i would choose not to shoot... shoot for the sake of shooting or just because the model is beautiful.... OR training for MANUAL focusing....??

1/1000s.... is there a need to use?? pardon me...
 

May 22, 2002
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#12
Originally posted by mpenza
Nope. You're wrong. A moving subject would mean softness. Try it and you'll know :) A easy way to try would be to bring the camera besides the road, set up accordingly mounting on a tripod for added stability and shoot passing cars.
oh... i see... does that means that u don't do panning shoot... or nature macro photography....??? seen F1 picture before??? those are BLUR background with SHARP subject WITHOUT FLASH.... those type of distance, WON'T allow u to use flash... your flsah will distract drivers... and not your picture...

blurness on Moving subject, with back ground SHARP, subject BLUR??? its call movement...

HAVE u try Soft filter on your subject??? Thats is call soft....

for f22 and 1/10s, is more for HAND HELD panning....
 

mpenza

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#14
Originally posted by reignman77
oh... i see... does that means that u don't do panning shoot... or nature macro photography....??? seen F1 picture before??? those are BLUR background with SHARP subject WITHOUT FLASH.... those type of distance, WON'T allow u to use flash... your flsah will distract drivers... and not your picture...

blurness on Moving subject, with back ground SHARP, subject BLUR??? its call movement...

HAVE u try Soft filter on your subject??? Thats is call soft....

for f22 and 1/10s, is more for HAND HELD panning....
Good that you know and have brought up panning and other techniques :) Your previous postings have been a bit too simplistic, making too many assumptions. You could rest well knowing that I do know something about panning and macro photography :)

I don't know much about taking fashion shots where the models are blur and the background sharp though. Did see some of these pics which I find rather artistic but it's not what chenwei is thinking of doing for the bridal show.

Also.... not using a soft filter doesn't mean that the pic will be sharp ;p
 

May 22, 2002
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#15
Originally posted by mpenza
Good that you know and have brought up panning and other techniques :) Your previous postings have been a bit too simplistic, making too many assumptions. You could rest well knowing that I do know something about panning and macro photography :)

I don't know much about taking fashion shots where the models are blur and the background sharp though. Did see some of these pics which I find rather artistic but it's not what chenwei is thinking of doing for the bridal show.

Also.... not using a soft filter doesn't mean that the pic will be sharp ;p
at any point of time, there is alway a shapness on a picture... even when using a soft 3 filter... unless its an out of focus shot... then it will be no sharp point... even panning have a sharp point if u know how u shoot it and WHERE to find it...
 

May 22, 2002
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#16
Originally posted by imaginary_number
Wouldn't there be motion blur if you use f22 1/10?
its depends of what shoot u talking about...

the above is more for flash photography...

if shooting with f22, u must have enough light... then u can hand held... if not, your speed will be very low...

panning shot usually use small f stop... its to create low shuttle speed and MORE sharp point...
 

mpenza

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#17
Originally posted by reignman77
sharpness? i have PRINTED to 8" x 12", shown on projector. so what do u think... lope can't do much...

when coming to LONG distance shoot, MOST photographer will at less use a monopod... NO ONE would hand held unless using iso 1600 or 3200..... if u need to shoot long distance, U will not need a flash... it will be come a fill in instead of main light.... unless u use 2-3 stop extra power...
??? You're diverging too much and are bringing more techniques and more equipment which weren't mentioned initially. Good for explaining to others who may be bewildered :) This clears up a lot of things (than a general statement like just 1/10s will result in sharp pics irregardless of conditions as implied).

Anyway, irregardless of the ISO, if you're using 1/10s, you won't want to handhold too.

Guess you haven't seen flash extender in use for long distance flash shots but that's besides the point. Do note that when you use a slow shutter speed like 1/10s to expose the background more, the effect of the flash will be reduced and might be more of a fill-in effect, than the main source of lighting.

Anyway, 210mm isn't really long distance. Some of the pics presented by chenwei here could be taken with a 210mm tele lens depending on his position relative to the models.

Originally posted by reignman77

How do u determind "flash gives out enough light for the purpose", auto mode from flash??? try TTL with 20mm lens on a cose up to shoulder shoot.... see if u get a FLAT picture or a tone up picture... if u notice... the old timer photographers DON' use original flash... either build in or just a small flash that give them enough power to brighten up a little...
This is what I termed as flash compensation in my original post. Wheher TTL or auto or even manual doesn't matter if you know the basics.

Originally posted by reignman77

if u want subject to brighten up and the rest darken just becasue the background is distracting,er... i would choose not to shoot... shoot for the sake of shooting or just because the model is beautiful.... OR training for MANUAL focusing....??
??? If you want to take pics of the background, you could always do it other times, or after the show.... There're times when including the background is good and other times when it's distracting. It's really up to the photographer's eye.

Anyway, in today's world, autofocus could be fast enough, even for a lowly prosumer digicam.

Originally posted by reignman77
1/1000s.... is there a need to use?? pardon me...
It gives flexibility, epecially to fill-in shadows during a bright day. Or it could be used to create a really dark background (for creative purpose?). Once you are even aware of the possibility, you probably can think of more uses.
 

mpenza

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#18
Originally posted by reignman77
at any point of time, there is alway a shapness on a picture... even when using a soft 3 filter... unless its an out of focus shot... then it will be no sharp point... even panning have a sharp point if u know how u shoot it and WHERE to find it...
correct. the main point is getting the part you want sharp sharp. for fashion shows, I would want the model sharp instead of (just) the background. Just like for panning pics of cars, I would want the car sharp, rather than the background. The questions asked were relating to keeping a moving model sharp using a slow shutter speed like 1/10s (even with flash).

e.g. flash was not able to freeze the moving guys:

1/6s (on purpose), a more powerful flash won't help.

btw, I've requested that the moderator split the thread as what we're discussing now has diverged from the original intent.
 

May 22, 2002
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#19
"flash extender", How often do u use?? is there a need to get it??
for my photography... NOPE... waste of money... too far, don't shoot... if not wait.... be patient...

when u use manual setting on the flash, 1/10s will increase in the background light and WILL not affect the POWER of flash.... if using TTL and Auto, it may be... for HIGHER end flashes, do the setting avaliable... for lower end, use the flash compensation to control... if not why is there a flash compensation??

BASIC is a guide for u to move into photography, photography doesn't stop at basic... its MORE to it... there are NO RULES in photography... most important is how and when u going to present what pictures....

i Still suppourt manual focusing...

ISO do play apart... IF U REMEMBER the basic... ;p
 

Zerstorer

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#20
Originally posted by reignman77
[Bwhen u use manual setting on the flash, 1/10s will increase in the background light and WILL not affect the POWER of flash.... if using TTL and Auto, it may be... for HIGHER end flashes, do the setting avaliable... for lower end, use the flash compensation to control... if not why is there a flash compensation??
[/B]
1/10 is too low a shutter speed to capture a moving subject. This can work IF the models are stationary/posing. But to catch them in mid-stride sharply you will need about 1/half focal length with flash and the recoprocal if without(given good technique).

With faster subjects like in action sports without flash I have found that even 1/3xfocal length isn't enough to freeze a subject.

The point is, even though the flash burst lasts for only 1/2000s or less. The background/ambient lighting will bleed into the "frozen" image of the subject if the exposure time is too long.

Given a pitch black situation it is easily possible to get totally frozen subjects even with a 1 or 2 seconds exposure, as the image captured will only be the duration of the flash.

But if there is light in background....you will need a decent shutter speed at least.

Anyway, these are experiences based on the same camera Chenwei is using, so it should at least be valid for under the same circumstances.
 

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