Of Photography, Learning Photography, and Deadpoet.


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student

Senior Member
Jul 26, 2004
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#1
To Admin/ Mods.

I have written this carefully. I feel that there are useful things. If I am deregistered because of this, so be it!

Use this gbyecs@yahoo.com if anyone wish to contact me.

On 5.12.06, DP commented in post #189 in "Who is qualified enough?'

deadpoet said:
"Well, Dr Chong, you don't qualify to be a critic. Not of photographs, nor of people. Your opinions are not yours, but those of others...Your need to quote others is pathetic....."

"Well, for someone established professionally, you are damn insecure... they (sic) way you advocate learning, I am surprise you made it as a doctor"

"You are too insignificant....."

"Be more creative next time"
I promised DP I will be more creative. My "creative" approach is to use facts to deal with imbeciles like DP.

31.8.06, DP wrote in "Charby's newbie shoot at Labrador Park"

deadpoet said:
You are by nature not a nice person
30.8.06, in "Clones for flaming", he wrote

deadpoet said:
..you are the one and only one here I really despise..
Now, I will give him cause to despise me even more because I am really not going to be nice!



Issues on my Professional Standing

#1

In the above quotes, DP had made reference to my professional standing as a doctor. I am totally disappointed at the admin at not taking a stand on this, because his statements go beyond what this forum is all about - on photography.

His insinuated two things. (1) That my way of learning is wrong, and (2), that with this way of learning which I advocated, I should not have been a doctor at all. For now, I will leave things as they are.

#2

Traditionally, a student spends a couple of years in the "basics" (anatomy, physiology and biochemistry) before going to the clinical years. This is a proven approach to medical training because it had succeeded in producing many fine doctors.

However, since the 1960s, there have been another approach - based on problem-solving. Students were put into clinical situations, and learnt whatever basics they need to solve the problem. A good example of this approach is McMaster University.

While I was trained in the traditional way, I am not ignorant nor dismissive of other methods of education, which are just as valid, because this other way of education also produced fine doctors!



Issues on learning photography


(A) "Basic Approaches"

I last discussed this in "Yuki", post #112

student said:
The traditional way is "to know the basics"- what some people also paraphrased as "learn to walk before one learn to run". THIS IS A VALID APPROACH..
Note that I agreed with much of what DP said.. My disagreement with DP is his delivery, dogmatism, and dismissive attitude to other approaches.

I further wrote

student said:
..there are other approaches.. one such approach is to run before walking...learn to express right from the beginning... offering technical assistance.. when required...learn to swim when you are in the water
I had mentioned it before that I did not have teachers like DP. My teachers did not want to see me make "correct" images. They wanted my photos try to say what I felt. Along the way, I learnt the technical necessities. Were my teachers/mentors misguided? I will return to this.


(B) On Attitudes to learning

DP declared that I am damn insecure and have no opinions of my own because I like to quote other photographers.

Am I insecure? Or is DP so arrogant that only his opinions matter?

Do we live in a vacuum? Did DP become a photographer from nowhere? Where did "rules" come from? DP made them? When we quote "rules" we are acknowledging those who made them. I am a product of various influences from the past and the present. All these resulted in a certain way of thinking, feeling and hopefully, of expressing. I do have my own opinions. But my opinions did not come from a vacuum, but from the rich traditions before me.

I will continue to quote others because I acknowledge those before me, wiser, "greater" and therefore worthy of my respect. Insecurity? Or humility?

But of course, DP does not find the need to quote from others, because he "has his own opinions". Wisdom? Or arrogance and stupidity?



(C) On Deadpoet and why I regard him as Sh1t.

In "Clones for flaming"

deadpoet said:
Dr C... he does not particularly like my style of photography, and likewise I feel the same for his work.....
deadpoet said:
your photography which I do not understand.... I do find your work absolutely bewildering...... I chose to not try to understand your work,

because to me you have nothing to offer
I have absolutely no problem if DP (or any other person) really felt that my photography have nothing to offer.

DEADPOET, YOU ARE A BLOODY LIAR AND HYPOCRITE!

Why did I say this? This is where I will let DP have the pleasure to regard me as the lowest of the lowest scums. I have enough of his lies and hypocrisy!

9.9.05 DP wrote to me

deadpoet said:
You are really depressing me. just glancing thru your pics, I realise I really need to do 2 things, develop a style of my own and that I need to experiment more. the 2 seems to be polarised, but I believe more experiments will get me to a style I can call mine. Of course, style will change as time goes, but right now, quite depressed with the images I am taking. Deadpoet, in a rainy afternoon in Rome
I replied

student said:
Don't know what to say. But I know you have passion, and independent thinking. Not seen your works yet. But they are likely to be good. Just perhaps not really what you wanted. I am still searching, searching....
DP replied 10.9.06

deadpoet said:
well, passion is one thing, my problem now for the past year is execution. to compound that problem, seems to be running out of imagination... once I found one I really like, will show you
10.9.06 separately

deadpoet said:
my favorite of the few you posted is the one showing only Eliza's head and hand. The entire series is very thought provoking, which is something so many images lack, just like most of mine. Thanks for the post,and thanks for giving my own thought processes a kick in the butt to get it going
What are the facts and insight we can get from these exchanges?

#1

I had shown only a few images, and they were enough to make DP feel unhappy with his images, and thank me for giving his thought processes a kick in the butt!

Yet he declared "to me you have nothing to offer!".

Now what do you call this? Liar and hypocrite!

Is his hypocrisy only confined to his exchanges with me??

Look again

deadpoet said:
find an organiser who really knows what it takes to capture a good picture, and care to see to it that the model, styling, make-up, location etc, are there... Unfortunately there is none in Singapore,
not if he/she is charging the runny rate posted in CS.. There is one that is close....
deadpoet said:
..typical of Charby's shabby school of make-up
What did he write before?

10.3.05

deadpoet said:
I'll shoot... any shoot Charby organises
27.3.06

deadpoet said:
..can't have the best shoots while I am gone... great job you have done organising!!!
28.3.05

deadpoet said:
(regarding Charby) "an ordinary organiser", that is the biggest understatement of all time.. what a crock of sh1t... extraordinary organiser is more like it. Let me set the record straight
16.4.05

deadpoet said:
another great shoot, as expected
Any doubts about the character of this DP?


#2

By his own admission,

(a) He lacked a style of his own
(b) He ran out of imagination
(c) The "nothing that I can offer him" offered him a kick to reflect on his photography!

Interesting! Why?

OK enough of this nonsense called Deadpoet!

(D) Some final thoughts

#1

Nothing wrong to be grounded in the basics. But remember there are other approaches.

#2

Although DP and others said that one needs to know the rules before one breaks it, the reality is that after a while, one will not want to break them. This is seen so often with the kind of images that one sees in CS, and the kinds of comments given to images.

#3

An obsession with "technical perfection" (that will have the approval of the critics) and "political correctness" (to please the esthetics of the critics) is, in my opinion, anathema to developing a style of one's own.

#4

How to have imagination?

By sticking to "rules"? Which is what DP propose so adamantly! What happens? DP has great imagination? His images have imaginations?

#5

How to have a "style" that one can called one's own?

(a) I think chasing for a style for its own sake will at best result in a caricature.

(b) A meaningful "style" can only result if one have a point of view, one's own way of seeing. One's own way of expressing.

#6

Were my teachers/mentors misguided? I am not a even a competent student. But already my miserable attempts had given a kick to the oversized butts of the "great" DP!

Not bad at all! Not bad at all!

Friends, this might be the last time I write to you.

If so, goodbye!
 

zaren

Moderator
Staff member
Oct 27, 2003
10,961
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#3
there are a few ways i can suggest to settle this feud...

a) the "really" old fashioned way - a duel (to the death usually!)
b) the old fashioned way - a boxing match
c) the photographer's way - a contest to see who takes the better shot given 1 camera, 1 prime lens, 1 shot and 1 hour. both shots will be put to the vote and open critique in CS.
d) the friendly way - both meet up, apologise to each other, buy each other a kopi and make friends.

:)
 

initialE24

New Member
Dec 18, 2004
1,381
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#6
Hatred cannot be overcome by hatred......but only by loving kindness,

Just like darkness cannot be overcome by darkness but by brightness..

Really hope that CS can be a place tat promotes photography and not enemies...

Peace! :)
 

Deadpoet

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2004
4,619
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#7
Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am not going to go through all of Student's derogatory comments aimed directly or indirectly at me over the past year. That exercise is fruitless. I am not even going to read through all of his rant and hatred he posted in this thread.

I had not once started any fights with Student, nor have I any idea how all his hatred for me had had started, nor do I care, nor could I care. I have had dished out insults that even I can be proud of. I have no regrets. However, as much as I had try to ignore his contineous insults and attacks, there are limits to my ability to ignore.

My apologies to the CS community if my rebuttals had cause any ripples among us. That was not intended.

My promise to the CS community is, for the good of the community, I will continue to comments and critique portraitures. If Student does not like them, his problems. If Student attacks me directly or indirectly, so be it, I am going to put him back on ignore. Hopefully, I will not be tempted to remove him from my ignore list this time around.

For those who are waiting for a fight, I apologise first, as it will not happen.

Let's go out and shoot some more, after all, this is a photography forum.

Happy Holidays ... Happy Shooting :)
 

Canonised

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2003
2,998
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#9
You don't even want to get into the ring? :sweat:
SUN TZU ON THE ART OF WAR
a. All warfare is based on deception.

b. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable;
when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we
are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away;
when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

c. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder,
and crush him.

d. If he is secured at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.

e. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to
irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.

f. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.

g. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where
you are not expected.

h. These military devices, leading to victory,
must not be divulged beforehand.
 

compro_1975

Senior Member
Apr 24, 2005
1,983
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0
#10
SUN TZU ON THE ART OF WAR
a. All warfare is based on deception.

b. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable;
when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we
are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away;
when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

c. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder,
and crush him.

d. If he is secured at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.

e. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to
irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.

f. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.

g. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where
you are not expected.

h. These military devices, leading to victory,
must not be divulged beforehand.
i like this say:thumbsup:
 

student

Senior Member
Jul 26, 2004
3,078
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0
#14
there are a few ways i can suggest to settle this feud...

a) the "really" old fashioned way - a duel (to the death usually!)
b) the old fashioned way - a boxing match
c) the photographer's way - a contest to see who takes the better shot given 1 camera, 1 prime lens, 1 shot and 1 hour. both shots will be put to the vote and open critique in CS.
d) the friendly way - both meet up, apologise to each other, buy each other a kopi and make friends.

:)
I always prefer a friend than a foe.

But I will NEVER have anything to do with hypocrites and liars.

You are free to associate with liars and hypocrites. Your perogative.
 

student

Senior Member
Jul 26, 2004
3,078
0
0
#15
Hatred cannot be overcome by hatred......but only by loving kindness,

Just like darkness cannot be overcome by darkness but by brightness..

Really hope that CS can be a place tat promotes photography and not enemies...

Peace! :)
You can be associated with someone who writes one thing to you, but publicly write another thing?
 

student

Senior Member
Jul 26, 2004
3,078
0
0
#16
Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am not going to go through all of Student's derogatory comments aimed directly or indirectly at me over the past year. That exercise is fruitless. I am not even going to read through all of his rant and hatred he posted in this thread.

I had not once started any fights with Student, nor have I any idea how all his hatred for me had had started, nor do I care, nor could I care. I have had dished out insults that even I can be proud of. I have no regrets. However, as much as I had try to ignore his contineous insults and attacks, there are limits to my ability to ignore.

My apologies to the CS community if my rebuttals had cause any ripples among us. That was not intended.

My promise to the CS community is, for the good of the community, I will continue to comments and critique portraitures. If Student does not like them, his problems. If Student attacks me directly or indirectly, so be it, I am going to put him back on ignore. Hopefully, I will not be tempted to remove him from my ignore list this time around.

For those who are waiting for a fight, I apologise first, as it will not happen.

Let's go out and shoot some more, after all, this is a photography forum.

Happy Holidays ... Happy Shooting :)
Liar and yypocrite!

Trying to assume a moral high ground?

Explain your statements in public and your statements in private!

Do want to go through? Or dare not go through?

What a weakling!!

You will not fight because you are so low that your attempt to assume a moral high ground is futile as the facts show so clearly!

Only idiots cannot see your futile attempt to try to redeem yourself!
 

student

Senior Member
Jul 26, 2004
3,078
0
0
#17
You don't even want to get into the ring? :sweat:
He may be a liar and hypocrite.

At least he can recognise a fight he had already lost!
 

Chris Lim

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2005
3,213
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#18
every "clan" has their own masters in the mountains. Like Wu Dang, Shaolin, Hua Shan...etc.
All of them are good in their own skills and will always battle it out in words, fights and politics. But at the end of the day, the masters of these clans will always retreat back to their own mountain to "meditate" and improve themselves. Thats why they say "To be invincible is to be Lonely"

I'm super oot here. But What i'm trying to say here is. Doesn't matter if its Deadpoet or Student. Everyone, everywhere is fighting each other for wat ever reasons. But at the end of the day.. who really wins? No one. So, why not retreat back to the mountains and be happy with your own believes and try not to cross each other's path anymore?

Cs is a place where a "family of photographers" gather. Its good to see feuding. But feud for the benefits of others.

I'm sorry to sound so childish. Its as close as how i can express my thoughts. Its just sad to see 2 very good and matured photographers clash like that..

Hope this post does some good...

peace...
 

student

Senior Member
Jul 26, 2004
3,078
0
0
#19
I am not even going to read through all of his rant and hatred he posted in this thread.
Just read the LARGE BOLD WORDS!

deadpoet said:
there are limits to my ability to ignore.
Excellent. Where are your limits? Just raised them? You said that you will fight to the end! Where are you now?

deadpoet said:
My promise to the CS community is, for the good of the community, I will continue to comments and critique portraitures.
For the GOOD of the community?

By lying to the community?

Knowing that you with all your opinions, could not even have a "style" of your own.

Leading the community to where you were?

For the GOOD of the community?

deadpoet said:
For those who are waiting for a fight, I apologise first, as it will not happen.
Another classic DP double talk. You had boasted so many times that you will not shy away from a fight. Now you are a hairless big-butted chicken?

deadpoet said:
Let's go out and shoot some more, after all, this is a photography forum.

Happy Holidays ... Happy Shooting :)
So that people here cannot see how your little balls are shrinking between those oversize butts which I kicked?

How clever!
 

student

Senior Member
Jul 26, 2004
3,078
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0
#20
Its just sad to see 2 very good and matured photographers clash like that..
I understand and appreciate what you are saying.

But you seriously think that DP is VERY GOOD (in what anyway? photography? or picking faults?) and mature? Matured in the art of deception, lies and hypocrisy?

Be honest with yourself.
 

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