Military Discussion : Should AMX 13-SM1 be replace ?


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#1
AMX 13-SM1 have been in service with Singapore for quite sometimes.
Wonder if it is going to be replace.





Armour is the backbone of the armed force.
If it is to be replace, which one better ?
US M1 Abrams : Too heavy
UK Challenger : Laggi more heavy
US M60 : A bit outed technology
US Sherman : Unless the year now is 1941. :bsmilie:
Russian T-54 : I might as well surrender. :cool:

Which tanks better ? Any recommedation ?
Comments any?
 

#2
I read from the Strait Times last year (can't remember when) that Singapore is developing an light weight, mobility, twins barrel tank with guided missile.

My concern is light weight = light armour.
One bazooka into it and the crew members will becomes BBQ.
 

Malakite

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#3
i agree with that... but why do u say that the M1 is too heavy?

i don't think singapore got issues with that weight right?
 

showtime

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#4
its probably more of a mission constraint than anything else. urban warfare does not suit MBTs. gas turbine engines dont spool up fast and accelerate poorer than diesel engines. good top speed though, suitable for dessert but certainly not singapore.

replacement? beats me.
 

giddygoat

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#5
actually hor, i think singapore is so urban an environment that a force of bradley armoured vehicles armed with TOW antitanks would probably be more effective. you have the 25mm against soft targets and antitank missles against armour. can carry infantry as well. easier to camo without the bloody great gun barrel and smaller so can navigate narrower streets.
MBTs are more offensive than defensive weapons. unless singapore intends to engage enemies in wide open spaces, heavy tanks are really overkill and can easily be trapped by rubble, etc.
 

TMC

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#6
imagine your M1 sinking into all that mud and soft soil in the jungles, and before all that, trying to get past all that trees and under growth.
 

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#7
dint we buy israeli 105mm modified abrams?

I thot we did.... hmmm.....


haha... i heard a funny story from my signal fren who was behind a AMX-13 and had to radio to the tank that his road wheel flew off...
 

hwchoy

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#8
TMC said:
imagine your M1 sinking into all that mud and soft soil in the jungles, and before all that, trying to get past all that trees and under growth.
first of all you will not take an armour column into the "jungle".

many years ago, I was involved in an experiment to gauge the mobility of armour vehicles of various sizes moving through closed terrain (meaning plantations). the place we conducted the exercise was in a old rubber plantation in Somapah (near where the Singapore Expo is now).

We found that MLC20 vehicles has the ability to move between trees relatively easily, but do not have the ability to knock down trees the size of mature rubber trees.

OTOH, MLC60 (we used the M728 CEV during the test) can move between trees but not with ease, however it can knock down the trees if it has too. But it should be noted that the CEV has a dozerboard suitable for pushing over trees and it has a short barrel. A real MBT (for example our Tempest) would have difficulties with the gun barrel.
 

Red Dawn

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#9
Hi

i doubt it is in Singapore's interest to engage on home soil. but don't quote me. Whatever I know about tanks comes from playing Microprose's M1 Tank Platoon :p

but if push comes to shove, i agree the M1A2 mbt is not suited for our narrow streets. U just have to look at the situation in Iraq. Light, mobile and moderately armed vehicles, preferably with anti tank TOWs or some form of vehicle launched armour piercing projectile will probably work much better.

that, coupled with good air support from our Apaches.

Actually, we have so many combat ready NSmen, i wonder if it is possible for all to be trained in some form of guerilla style warfare, not unlike the Iraqi insurgents. Imagine, enemy tank rolling down Bedok and kenna hit by a TOW shot from a window of a HDB flat :p
 

giddygoat

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#11
hwchoy said:
what makes you think we're going to use it in Singapore? :think:
umm, we gonna invade malaysia? MBTs are very nice for power projection. scare the pants of your neighbours when they know you have them. but maintainance cost and manpower would not make it worthwhile in singapore.
anyway, i think whoever who's gonna attack singapore would find it hard going in street to street fighting more than any major setpiece battles. so many buildings and narrow streets. infantry units, supported by attack helicopters and support vehicles can wreck havoc. if i'm gonna invade here, i would probably go with a major arti bombardment and carpet bombing and basically wait things out until we surrender. so i think air superiority and infantry units well trained in street fighting are very important if singapore gonna hold out.
 

hwchoy

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#12
King Tiger said:
I read from the Strait Times last year (can't remember when) that Singapore is developing an light weight, mobility, twins barrel tank with guided missile.

My concern is light weight = light armour.
One bazooka into it and the crew members will becomes BBQ.
Light is a relative, MLC30 is still lighter than an M1 :)

My personal belief is that a replacement for the AMX13 would be built, possibly based on the Bionix chassis (which is in the 25-tonne class), and this would be roughly 30-tonnes.

Such a tank would not be so oversized as to be unuseable in the terrain and rural infrastructure (read BRIDGES) of the intended area of ops, can be water-transportable and still have enough armour protection to achieve the missions.

When you built an armour force, the various elements must match in order to facilitate logistics and movement. Note the various AVLB that are replacing/complementing the old M60-based AVLB. Also note the recent addition of the Primus, which came in around 30-tonnes.

Why does the Primus "only" have a 39-calibre gun? Why not 52-calibre like the FH2000? Because the Primus is expected to be organic to the ABG and hence the intended target will be just ahead of the battle group, but it needs the armour protect and mobility to move with the column. The FH2000 will provide long-range artillery from behind, where it has the range but not the mobility to keep up with the column.
 

hwchoy

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#13
giddygoat said:
umm, we gonna invade malaysia? MBTs are very nice for power projection. scare the pants of your neighbours when they know you have them. but maintainance cost and manpower would not make it worthwhile in singapore.
anyway, i think whoever who's gonna attack singapore would find it hard going in street to street fighting more than any major setpiece battles. so many buildings and narrow streets. infantry units, supported by attack helicopters and support vehicles can wreck havoc. if i'm gonna invade here, i would probably go with a major arti bombardment and carpet bombing and basically wait things out until we surrender. so i think air superiority and infantry units well trained in street fighting are very important if singapore gonna hold out.

ermmm… maybe you haven't serve your NS yet? :sweat: but there are some useful books the general public can read. you've got to be kidding if you think we're going to wait till someone turns up in Northpoint Shopping Centre before doing something about the situation. :nono:
 

hwchoy

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#14
Red Dawn said:
Hi

i doubt it is in Singapore's interest to engage on home soil. but don't quote me. Whatever I know about tanks comes from playing Microprose's M1 Tank Platoon :p
a very nice game unfortunately it doesn't seem to run properly on my new graphics card.

the movement of the tanks is so realistic that when they cross over a slope threshold you can see the vehicle rock forward, damn exactly the same as in real life in an APC/tank. The engine sound also changes accordingly when that happens!!! :thumbsup:
 

hwchoy

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#17
giddygoat said:
scare the pants of your neighbours when they know you have them.
actually it is in reverse, we should be the guys pissing in our pants since our neighbours have the PT91 while we have some Tempest (Centurion). *they do have 105mm guns, may this is the "modified israeli Abrams"?*
 

giddygoat

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#18
hwchoy said:
ermmm… maybe you haven't serve your NS yet? :sweat: but there are some useful books the general public can read. you've got to be kidding if you think we're going to wait till someone turns up in Northpoint Shopping Centre before doing something about the situation. :nono:
point taken :bsmilie:
 

Red Dawn

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#19
hwchoy said:
a very nice game unfortunately it doesn't seem to run properly on my new graphics card.

the movement of the tanks is so realistic that when they cross over a slope threshold you can see the vehicle rock forward, damn exactly the same as in real life in an APC/tank. The engine sound also changes accordingly when that happens!!! :thumbsup:
unfortunately they don't make sims like this anymore :(

those were the days when one can pilot a F117a nighthawk into Tripoli, Libya undetected on a recon misssion, or fly an F15e strike eagle into the heart of baghdad to take out enemy military installations, engage in a dogfight in a F16c fighting falcon over the skies of North Korea, or lead a platform of m1a2 mbts across the Arabian desert........
 

giddygoat

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#20
hwchoy said:
actually it is in reverse, we should be the guys pissing in our pants since our neighbours have the PT91 while we have some Tempest (Centurion). *they do have 105mm guns, may this is the "modified israeli Abrams"?*
i was refering to if we get m1a2 or something. think we can spark off an arms race liao :dunno: .
 

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