Military Discussion : Battle of Moscow (Operation Typhoon 1941)

Will Russia surrender / sue for peace with Germany if Moscow is capture


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#1
Operation Typhoon

Germany launched Operation Typhoon on 02nd October 1941 with the aim of capture Moscow before Christmas.
By 28th Nov 1941, the Germans are 30 km within the reach of Moscow.
But winter, muddy ground, strong resistence, reinforcement from Russian Far East have already hinder Germans advance.
On 05th Dec 1941, the reinforcement Russian force counter attack and push the Germans back.

The discussion is : Will Russia surrender / sue for peace with Germany if Moscow is capture ?

Prelude to Operation Typhoon
Germany launch Operation Babarossa on 22nd Jun 1941 with the aim of defeating Russia in 6 months.
(The operation was suppose to launch in May 1941 but was one month delay to due to Germany invasion of Greece and follow by Yugoslavia, in order to intervence and rescue her ally, Italy from military disaster.)

Luftwaffe gain control of air supremacy quickly on the very first day, destroying 1200 Russian aircrafts.
The massacre in the air was immediately followed by the one on the ground.
Panzer divisions smash throught Russian defence, crushing and encircelment Russian armies after armies.
German army have also uninterrupt air support from Luftwaffe.
By 26th July 1941, German Army Group Centre have reach Smolensk, Russian defence have collapse and the road to Moscow was left open and undefend to the Germans.
(But Hilter divert part of German Army Group Centre and Army Group South to capture a large Russian force around Kiev. The operation was a tactical success and 655,000 Russian troops was captured)

By this time, Russian losses were extremely high.
Before Operation Typhoon was launched, Russian have lost
1) Almost every mechanised corps and 177 infantry divisions have been wipe out.
2) 21,000 tanks
3) 3,000,000 casualties (including KIA, MIA or POWs)




P.S. Correct me if any of the above information is wrong. :sweat:
Purely military discussion only.
 

Hobbesyeo

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#2
The scenario brings to mind the phrase, "a cornered man is the most dangerous" (or something like that).

The Russians are known for their fierce loyalty to their "motherland". Even with such high losses of men and equipment, I don't think they would have surrendered. IMO, it is quite likely they would have fought to the last man.
 

Francis247

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#3
IMO, Stalin is more focus on protecting Stalingrad even though Moscow is the capital city. So even if Moscow is lost, the Russian will try to resist the opposition from reaching Stalingrad at all cost and will try to push their way back to reclaim Moscow.
 

judeseah

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#4
believe moscow was saved by the fierce winter.
was it early too?
remember it was similar to napolean's situation.

jude
 

Taurean

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Sep 8, 2005
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#5
Yeah agree with Judeseah.

Think the harsh winter conditions which the German troops are not used to cause them to retreat in the end. The German troops are not properly kit for the weather in Russia as well if memory didn't fail me :dunno:
 

Sjourn

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#6
Probably our second language would be German if Moscow was lost.
 

Zplus

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#7
Did you watch the foreign film Stalingrad?? Yeah, focused on that war. The winter was long and fierce. The German front was spread too thin. Support could not reach the troops thro the snow. Bogged down... not enough tracked vehicles. PLus heavy tanks were bogged down by the snow. Plus Germany was also fighting in Europe. Blitzkrieg would not have worked in this case.:)
 

Ola

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#9
The Germany troops were not properly equipped for Winter and the supply line was stretched too long. IMO this is the major cause for the defeat.
 

Simon_84

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#10
if any of you guys played codename panzers before,you would know a little bit of the german tanks not able to operate smoothly on snow especially panzer 3 and 4 divisons.
only from their panther tank onwards (which they copied by stealing a T34),they start having a tank capable of matching the russian famous T34 tank with big and wide tracks to operate well on snow.
but i guess the tiger and king tiger tanks really let them down due to more machine failure than being destroy.
especially the tiger tank being heavy should best avoid muddy ground.

the russian snipers also took out a few quite high ranking officers in stalingrad.
to send german troops into low morale.
 

Zplus

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#11
Simon_84 said:
only from their panther tank onwards (which they copied by stealing a T34),they start having a tank capable of matching the russian famous T34 tank with big and wide tracks to operate well on snow.

Ah.... the Panther, one of the best tanks of that era. I thought it was already fielded when operations in Russia takes place. Its just that there weren't enough. The only thing it learned from the russion tanks were the sloped armour.:)

Just like the Me262... too few to win a war...
 

Simon_84

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#12
Francis247 said:
IMO, Stalin is more focus on protecting Stalingrad even though Moscow is the capital city. So even if Moscow is lost, the Russian will try to resist the opposition from reaching Stalingrad at all cost and will try to push their way back to reclaim Moscow.
in the film titled enemy at the gates,there was a russian general telling his officers to protect stalingrad at all cost because it bears the name of the boss.
russian infantry were told to make a big dash in some parade square in stalingrad and cowards turning back were shot by their own russian people!
forget what the name of the parade square but those who played call of duty before should roughly know.
 

Simon_84

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#13
Zplus said:
Ah.... the Panther, one of the best tanks of that era. I thought it was already fielded when operations in Russia takes place. Its just that there weren't enough. The only thing it learned from the russion tanks were the sloped armour.:)

Just like the Me262... too few to win a war...
some german troops were told to capture the russian prototype T34 tank when it came out during the early period of eastern front.
the numbers of T34 produced is one of the major factors that that the russians start turning the tide.
cause during that period no german anti-tank guns could pentrate the armor of the T34.
a smashing success thats what the russians called it.
it also create a major impact on all later allied tanks as well.
not forgetting that 60 degrees angled sloped armor to defect incoming anti-tank shells.
 

tokrot

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#14
Unlikely. Mostly likely the russians will not surrender. They willl probably fight to finish and die. Imagine the Nazi signed the Non-Agression pact with the Russian when they invaded Poland and broke it when they invaded Russia. I dont think the Russian in their right mind would surrender to the Nazi who do not honour a pact. Moreover, the Nazi had already killed millions of russians.
 

Bluestrike

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#16
ok even tho this is Kopitiam but i have no wish to see it turn into a base for discussion of his nature. Even tho there may be many into military stuff and such but this is after all ClubSNAP, a place known more for it photography then of matters of that military natures.

Thread will be closed and further threads of such nature closed without any further notices.

To the thread starter. Pls be advised that if this thread go on, i think there will be more threads of such natures. I'm sure there are forums out there that cater to your needs.

Hope to have your understanding and co-operation in this area.

Mod
Kopitiam
 

Jason Ho

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#17
I have reviewed and reopened the thread for further discussion.

My apology for the mod's wrong judgement call here.
 

afbug

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#18
Jason Ho said:
I have reviewed and reopened the thread for further discussion.

My apology for the mod's wrong judgement call here.
Thats cool. :) Thank you.

I finally saw the T34 in action on TV just now. Did anyone of you watch Discovery's Top 10 tanks? Wow! T34's strength is its simplicity and sloped armour. Hi-tech at that time.
 

agape01

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#19
Thanks for correcting the misjudgement...

I agree that the russians will not surrender even if moscow is taken or even if stalingard is captured. Russia is so huge, the population is so vast, materials in abundance, why should russia surrender.

As afbug pointed out, the T-34 were in production at a pace of 1,300 a month. What is there to stop the russians from taking captured territory back.

Reminds me of Saddam when he was fighting Iran in the Iran-Iraq conflict that lasted for almost 10 years. In one engagement, Saddam lost thousands of men but the next day, he just whacked the Iranians the next.
 

Sjourn

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#20
Kudos to the admin:thumbsup:

It was a major under estimation of Germany to take on Russia, this piece of histroy was the turning point of the war. Had germany just stuck with Europe and anchored there, how long do you think the war would have lasted? my assumption would be 10 more years...
 

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