Marketplace: what's wrong with underbidding?

[kuoann]

I frequently see requests by the sellers on the Buy-Sell forum discouraging potential buyers from saying the asking price is 'too expensive' or counter-quoting a lower offer price. On the other hand, there is seldom admonishment against others saying its a 'good price, up for you'.


Just as there is transparency regarding how many people are willing to pay more (each time the price goes up), there should be transparency regarding the number of people not willing to pay more. This is the true indication of the market strength.

This is seen also in stock market system. Besides knowing the current price and the bid price, there is also information on the NUMBER of people bidding higher and lower. This provides other bidders with information about how strong demand really is, and if they should simply wait for the (potentially weak) demand to peter out, and buy from the next available seller, or jump in with a higher bid.

We should not be biasing prices in the upward direction. Market should be neutral. Let the supply-demand factor be the only factor determining price. This is an open forum, so why should the rules (official or unofficial) benefit the sellers?

 

[TMC]

You try selling something say for like 1900, then you will have jokers asking/demanding you to sell to them at 1300 or lower. It is to try to discourage people from making such outrageously ridiculous offers. Then the whole thread can degrade into a haggling match.

Anyway market forces is always in action there. Some items are sold at lower than RP prices provided that they are not too off. People are always welcomed to bid but no stupid offers. Demand can also be seen if they bothered to do a search to see at what prices and how fast the items were sold.

Sellers dont always benefit. and why must everything benefit the buyers? Sellers sell coz there is benefits, they dont do it for charity.

 

[kuoann]

The list of last-done prices is not necessarily reflective of true market demand because they were all influenced by the upward bias effect as stated above.

At the moment, the only group that 'always benefit's, is the sellers. All I'm suggesting it that to be fair, there should be a reflection of how many people bid down (in addition to how many bid up).

I understand your concern about 'outrageously ridiculous' bidders. But even 'ridiculous' low bidders are bidders nonetheless. What sellers are afraid of is the effect that 'low bids' have on weakening market sentiment. As you say, market forces are at work, so the 'ridiculously' low bidders will not win the deal. If you are confident in the market system, then you will not be afraid of 'ridiculous' bidders. Your product is only worth what others are willing to pay. And what others are willing to pay is in turn influenced by what others around them are willing to pay. Buyers are also not in it for chairity.

Its a Buy-Sell forum, with equal emphasis on the Buy as well as the Sell. More equity, that's all I wish.

 

[AReality]

The list of last-done prices is not necessarily reflective of true market demand because they were all influenced by the upward bias effect as stated above.

At the moment, the only group that 'always benefit's, is the sellers. All I'm suggesting it that to be fair, there should be a reflection of how many people bid down (in addition to how many bid up).

I understand your concern about 'outrageously ridiculous' bidders. But even 'ridiculous' low bidders are bidders nonetheless. What sellers are afraid of is the effect that 'low bids' have on weakening market sentiment. As you say, market forces are at work, so the 'ridiculously' low bidders will not win the deal. If you are confident in the market system, then you will not be afraid of 'ridiculous' bidders. Your product is only worth what others are willing to pay. And what others are willing to pay is in turn influenced by what others around them are willing to pay. Buyers are also not in it for chairity.

Its a Buy-Sell forum, with equal emphasis on the Buy as well as the Sell. More equity, that's all I wish.

If we are all "properly programmed robots", your idea will work.

We're not.


.

 

[dEthANGeL]

Main thing is, if you allow this kind of habit to carry on, next think you know, you'll have jokers bidding by $1 increments.

Eg. Start for you @ $1 for your 70-200 IS lens .. when you know market rate is at least 2K and more ...

Once this trend starts, it'll be havoc. This is not hardwarezone.

 

[blimmer]

I get what kuoann is trying to say in his/her 1st post. There is a general lack of transparency in the wheeling and dealing. Apparently the favoured system is through PM and sms. At the end of the day, no one knows whats the current bid and by whom so there's another round of PMing + SMSing to enquire about the latest bid/warranty status/condition. I find this unnecessary if everyone is willing to deal openly in the thread. Alas some people are worried about privacy and what-not. Will announcing publicly in the thread affect their price of selling the gear in future especially if they're the 3rd owner and onwards?

Ridiculous bids and $0.10 increments are flaws of this system where things might degenerate to the situation in HWZ. I have not seen a perfect BnS system yet and the current system is definitely not perfect either. This is why kuoann feels that the advantage is played to the seller instead of a fair playing field. (is this what you meant? I cant tell for sure but this is what i feel. feel free to correct me.)

 

[Firefox]

I frequently see requests by the sellers on the Buy-Sell forum discouraging potential buyers from saying the asking price is 'too expensive' or counter-quoting a lower offer price. On the other hand, there is seldom admonishment against others saying its a 'good price, up for you'.


Just as there is transparency regarding how many people are willing to pay more (each time the price goes up), there should be transparency regarding the number of people not willing to pay more. This is the true indication of the market strength.

This is seen also in stock market system. Besides knowing the current price and the bid price, there is also information on the NUMBER of people bidding higher and lower. This provides other bidders with information about how strong demand really is, and if they should simply wait for the (potentially weak) demand to peter out, and buy from the next available seller, or jump in with a higher bid.

We should not be biasing prices in the upward direction. Market should be neutral. Let the supply-demand factor be the only factor determining price. This is an open forum, so why should the rules (official or unofficial) benefit the sellers?

Non-constructive posts make the thread messy for one. Let's not forget that the buy/ sell in Clubsnap, unlike in most other forums, doesn't allow editting or deleting of threads.
Secondly, many underbids are simply outrageous.
Thirdly, many people who make unconstructive posts are not tact.
There's a marked difference between:

"Hey.. The item is currently being sold for $Y at Shop ABC. You might want to revise your price."
AND
"Wah.. So expensive.. might as well buy from seller XYC".

The response to the latter, though largely unsaid, is simply: "Go ahead and buy from seller XYC if it's cheaper". It's also, unfortunately, the most common example.
If it's truely a better deal and you're serious in wanting to buy one, why aren't you getting it?
Is it because there's a catch (wouldn't be a fair comparison then, would it?) or are you simply using FUD to attempt to force my price down (Why should I yield to such underhand means) or are you simply thread crapping?

As you've said, market force will determine the price at which the item is sold. If the price is too high, the seller won't make a sale.
If one posts an item for sale at price X, the potential buyer has the option to either pay price X or pass for it.
No one is taking a knife to his/ her neck and forcing him/ her to pay the requested price for the item.
If the buyer offers to buy at price X, then it's a simple contractual agreement between the buyer and seller. I sell at price X, you're willing to buy at price X. Simple as that. You don't like the price, then pass on to the next thread.

At some point in time, should the item simply not move, the seller will simply have to withdraw or revise the price. This is driven by the market force you mentioned.

There's another issue that perhaps not everyone faces. Some underbidders do give ridiculous bids and fully expects the seller to yield to them. Most sellers will simply ignore their bids. However, some of these lowballers will bi+ch and whine about the sellers saying that they do not respond or are unfriendly etc.
As a seller, it's a damn if you do, damn if you don't situation. If you choose to ignore them, they'll whine about you. If you respond, it takes your precious time and simply causes more heartache.
Openly discouraging lowballers is sometimes a way of avoiding such sticky situations.

In conclusion, I firmly believe that sellers have the right to discourage under bidding. If the price is too high, market force simply dictates that the item won't sell. There is no biasing of the price in any way at all. As you said, it's supply vs demand. The seller must be WILLING to sell the item at a certain price, the buyer must be WILLING and ABLE to meet that price. Otherwise, there's no transaction.
If demand fails to meet supply, the supply will either dwindle (as items are withdrawn from sale) or the price will drop (as prices are revised) until they meet at the equilibrium.

 

[serial_lain]

whoa some economics going on here.. well i definately vote for more transparency as during the bidding process one is often left wondering where the bid stands and if upping the bid is necessary.. so thats definately a logical point.. i also agree with the 'Your product is only worth what others are willing to pay' statement and buyers on their part should bid reasonably and sensibly.. but at the same time if the seller cannot reach his recommended price after repeated 'upping' in the thread then maybe the product is just not worth that much money on the fickle second hand market..

having said that there are also many examples in the marketplace where sellers and buyers can come to an agreement on the price they expect to receive and the perceived value by the sellers so all is not bad..

definately a vote for market forces for me here.. haha

 

[nightwolf75]

I frequently see requests by the sellers on the Buy-Sell forum discouraging potential buyers from saying the asking price is 'too expensive' or counter-quoting a lower offer price. On the other hand, there is seldom admonishment against others saying its a 'good price, up for you'.


Just as there is transparency regarding how many people are willing to pay more (each time the price goes up), there should be transparency regarding the number of people not willing to pay more. This is the true indication of the market strength.

This is seen also in stock market system. Besides knowing the current price and the bid price, there is also information on the NUMBER of people bidding higher and lower. This provides other bidders with information about how strong demand really is, and if they should simply wait for the (potentially weak) demand to peter out, and buy from the next available seller, or jump in with a higher bid.

We should not be biasing prices in the upward direction. Market should be neutral. Let the supply-demand factor be the only factor determining price. This is an open forum, so why should the rules (official or unofficial) benefit the sellers?

ya know... it would work. if everyone understands the supply/demand curve.

unfortunately, most don't. even if they do, they pretend they don't.

i wonder if u are a 'veteran' of Buy/Sell here? if u are, then u'll understand why there are 'warnings' posted by sellers, and most prefer dealing thru PMs since the buyer has the option to ignore any ridiculous bidders than to openly respond to them. this might result in a flamewar. i, for one, has kenna more than enuf times from twits who bid severely under-market value and still expect me to sell it to them. in fact, they demand i sell it to them... go figure. i just received one very weird PM abt my tripod sale, knocking $10 off my selling price. its fine with me... except the reason gave to me was becos he/she/it needs to travel to meet me... and then cancel the PM becos he/she/it bought something else... really. i'm not making this up.

its this kind of people, plus all the price police and generally trash-talkers dat really irks true buyers and sellers. most, if not all, sellers dun always sell at their listed prices and some bargaining does happen within reason. is the Marketplace concept flawed? nope. its the people using it dats the problem.

oh, btw... the stock mkt is not flawless as u made it out to be. there's this little thing called insider trading and manipulation of stock prices due to big dealing houses.... gee... doesn't dat sound familar?

 

[barracuda]

worst of all, some ppl do it for fun. they anyhow slash your price by half or more, just for the fun of doing it. they don't care about market price, in fact they don't even care what u r selling, they just slash your price out of their own boredom. :thumbsd:

 

[Watcher]

My 2 cents here:

Firstly, I'm a free-market advocate. Next, even Ebay, the world largest market place still have issues with the process, not to mention the cheats, etc. CS is not even meant for that!

A seller can either offer open bidding but since the posts cannot be edited, it can be long. Furthermore, some here does not want to announce that they are buying anything; we should respect the that.

As for close bidding, all the issues have been listed but it gives the seller the choice of whom he wants to sell to. In fact, the highest bidder may not win but that again is the seller's choice.

As for underbidding, it is hard to have any excuse besides that these people are just out to spoil the bid. Why? If it is too high, they can PM the seller directly. If the seller doesn't then drop price, why bother to continue. The other buyers should understand caveat emptor. The $1 bid kind of thing is ridiculous; these people should be suspended from BnS.

 

[kuoann]

By the same principle, you should disallow people who say "very good deal, up for you" as they are 'talking up' the market with no intention of buying it themselves either. They are also done it 'for fun'.

 

[GitS]

its a question of lack of accountability hiding behind a veil of anonymity. imagine if you go to a used car lot in ubi, the salesman tells you the car is selling for $X, i dare the idiotic underbidders in CS to offer $x/2 - lets see how fast your ambulance can reach the A&E. at the very least, the salesman will heap "special blessings" on your family members. try the same stunt in sim lim or lucky plaza if you dare.

in a more civil environment like the financial markets, if your price bid is outside the logical price range for a product, we call it a bump quote or a misquote, the latter of which can get you into a lot of trouble and cost you large losses and your job. there is accountability here as every market player is identifiable and is responsible for the prices put up. Here, you take full resonsibility for the number you put up on the screen, but not on CS.