Kallang Riverside park sunrise


thoongeng

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Jan 26, 2010
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#1
1. in what area is critique to be sought?
Composition and post-processing

2. what one hopes to achieve with the piece of work?
A well composed photo with post-processing that looks natural

3. under what circumstance is the picture taken? (physical conditions/emotions)
Sunrise at Kallang Riverside Park. It was cloudy, so sunrise wasn't fantastic. This was shot during the dawn hours, slight drizzle just stopped and when some 'golden' rays peeked through the cloud cover

Exposure: 2s, F8, ISO100, effective focal length 24mm
PP: Crop, adjusted exposure and saturation

4. what the critique seeker personally thinks of the picture
Colours of the sky wasn't fantastic, so main aim is to get opinion from the gurus here regarding composition:
- Initially included more of the foreground 'breakwater' (the curvy looking thing) for a leading line, such that it extended to the bottom right of the frame. However there was a stick sticking out of the ground which initially I thought was ok, but after looking again on the screen looks distracting, so cropped it out in post-processing, so now the 'breakwater' starts from roughly 1/3 to the bottom right of the frame.
- Original composition was roughly 1/3 foreground with the 'breakwater', 1/3 middle-ground of reflections and 1/3 background of the buildings and sky. After cropping the horizon line now lies more in the middle

Post-processing wise I increased the contrast and saturation of the photo, hope it is not 'overcooked' by the experienced viewers here.


Kallang riverside park sunrise by knowenoughhappy, on Flickr

Thanks for viewing :)
 

MGohzxc

Senior Member
Jun 12, 2010
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#2
Hi, I think is not bad at all and these days, the weather is really bad for sunrise and sunset. Nitpick - As you push the contrast, the buildings get a little darker and you also get this dark outline of those building. Could do with shadow recovery on those areas.That thing in the bottom right foreground touches the frame is quite distracting to the eye too.The indoor stadium on the left, I think, is a little soft or not in focus. It could be you are shooting at F8... I am sure you have already learn about hyperfocal - DOF extend from half of the hyperfocal distance to Infinity.

No guru - Just sharing and learning together...:)
 

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nitewalk

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May 31, 2010
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#3
1. in what area is critique to be sought?
Composition and post-processing

2. what one hopes to achieve with the piece of work?
A well composed photo with post-processing that looks natural

3. under what circumstance is the picture taken? (physical conditions/emotions)
Sunrise at Kallang Riverside Park. It was cloudy, so sunrise wasn't fantastic. This was shot during the dawn hours, slight drizzle just stopped and when some 'golden' rays peeked through the cloud cover

Exposure: 2s, F8, ISO100, effective focal length 24mm
PP: Crop, adjusted exposure and saturation

4. what the critique seeker personally thinks of the picture
Colours of the sky wasn't fantastic, so main aim is to get opinion from the gurus here regarding composition:
- Initially included more of the foreground 'breakwater' (the curvy looking thing) for a leading line, such that it extended to the bottom right of the frame. However there was a stick sticking out of the ground which initially I thought was ok, but after looking again on the screen looks distracting, so cropped it out in post-processing, so now the 'breakwater' starts from roughly 1/3 to the bottom right of the frame.
- Original composition was roughly 1/3 foreground with the 'breakwater', 1/3 middle-ground of reflections and 1/3 background of the buildings and sky. After cropping the horizon line now lies more in the middle

Post-processing wise I increased the contrast and saturation of the photo, hope it is not 'overcooked' by the experienced viewers here.


Kallang riverside park sunrise by knowenoughhappy, on Flickr

Thanks for viewing :)
I saw it as three elements being separated into three separate parts, i.e. the indoor stadium, the condo and the breakwater. And the breakwater some part submerged some part appearing, I just feel the overall composition feels rather disjointed. I'd not include the breakwater and rework this either to be only consisting of the condo or if you want to include the indoor stadium, you could do a vertical pano stitch of portrait-oriented shots to get a broader view. As it is, i felt the indoor stadium is pushed right to the left edge of the frame. Feel compelled to say this after seeing Manita's critique: No guru here as well :bsmilie:
 

thoongeng

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2010
1,276
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#4
Hi, I think is not bad at all and these days, the weather is really bad for sunrise and sunset. Nitpick - As you push the contrast, the buildings get a little darker and you also get this dark outline of those building. Could do with shadow recovery on those areas.That thing in the bottom right foreground touches the frame is quite distracting to the eye too.The indoor stadium on the left, I think, is a little soft or not in focus. It could be you are shooting at F8... I am sure you have already learn about hyperfocal - DOF extend from half of the hyperfocal distance to Infinity.

No guru - Just sharing and learning together...:)
Thanks for dropping by, and thanks for the nitpicking so I can improve ;)

Looks like I pushed the contrast a bit too far, thought it looked nice for the definition of the clouds, but didn't notice the black outlines on the buildings heh...

Hmm wondering how would you improve on 'That thing in the bottom right foreground touches the frame is quite distracting to the eye too'? Would you crop it off and leave the 2nd breakwater, or include more such that it extends to the bottom right corner of the frame?

Thinking indoor stadium might not be soft from not being in focus... I think I focused on the distant breakwater which is around 3 meters away (hyperfocal distance is around 1.5m), so theoretically it should be in focus. Hmm in the orginal file also looks a bit softer, maybe because of corner softness from the lens, and maybe made worse with my distortion correction ;p

Thanks again, will keep your pointers in mind :)
 

thoongeng

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2010
1,276
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#5
I saw it as three elements being separated into three separate parts, i.e. the indoor stadium, the condo and the breakwater. And the breakwater some part submerged some part appearing, I just feel the overall composition feels rather disjointed. I'd not include the breakwater and rework this either to be only consisting of the condo or if you want to include the indoor stadium, you could do a vertical pano stitch of portrait-oriented shots to get a broader view. As it is, i felt the indoor stadium is pushed right to the left edge of the frame. Feel compelled to say this after seeing Manita's critique: No guru here as well :bsmilie:
Thanks for your comments!

Interesting, didn't think of your breaking-down of the scene. I added the Indoor Stadium so the place is more recognisable (not necessary a good reason on hindsight heh), and also to try to balance the composition... the right side of the row of condos are taller so looked a bit more right heavy, wanted to add the indoor stadium on the left to balance it. Yeah agree that it is a bit tight on the left frame heh...

Thanks again for your suggestions, more angles to try out :)
 

nitewalk

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May 31, 2010
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#6
It did occur to me you may be trying to balance the composition. I just thought three items seem all too disjointed. The sky and reflection are nice and exposure well-controlled though.
 

thoongeng

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2010
1,276
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#7
It did occur to me you may be trying to balance the composition. I just thought three items seem all too disjointed. The sky and reflection are nice and exposure well-controlled though.
Hi nitewalk, appreciate your input! I wasn't trying to put down your comments, just that when shooting I didn't think in terms of what you saw in the photo. Your vision is one step ahead of mine of just trying to balance the scene ha... now that you pointed it out I'll keep that in mind the next time I evaluate a scene, thanks!
 

nitewalk

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May 31, 2010
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#8
Hi nitewalk, appreciate your input! I wasn't trying to put down your comments, just that when shooting I didn't think in terms of what you saw in the photo. Your vision is one step ahead of mine of just trying to balance the scene ha... now that you pointed it out I'll keep that in mind the next time I evaluate a scene, thanks!
Don't worry, I totally didn't think of you trying to put me down and even if you don't agree with my critique it is perfectly fine as I am just sharing my humble opinion with you and i might even learn if you critically think through my critique. Balancing the composition is important, but I feel it is equally important to have a harmonious co-existence of the elements in your frame. For me, these three somehow didn't work well together in terms of co-existence. It is a good try nonetheless and I love the way you controlled the exposure, especially for the condo and the reflection! It is so easy to blow the highlights for the reflections, but i thought you handled that well! :)
 

kei1309

Senior Member
Apr 12, 2010
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#9
i have to agree with Manita.

and really, what Nitewalk is trying to explain is what Manita already said.

look at your composition and framing.

\

1st: Rule of Thirds

what you have is a prominent subject that's really different from the rest, on the edge of the frame: the Indoor Stadium. your viewer's eyes will be struggling between that and the condominiums on the right side, which sit nicely in the Rule of Thirds

2nd: Leading Lines

your horizon is in the center. that's ok, since you're portraying symmetry. but what you have at the bottom half is also whatever it is in the water.
notice that it forms a line? and where does it point? somewhere in between the condominium and Indoor Stadium, where there's nothing. a little empty space. now this confuses the viewer's eyes even more. where do i look at?

3rd: distractions

now, not only does it form a line, it's very prominent in the forground and ends somewhere around the bottom 1/3 of the image. back to the Rule of Thirds. you've got your viewer staring at a distraction.

conclusion:
it's basically not 3 elements you're trying to focus on. it's just bad framing and positioning. what you need to work on in here, is your composition and framing. you have 3 different subjects fighting for attention here.

and that's what nitewalk's trying to explain, though in a very...confusing way.

and IMHO... if you want to compress the buildings together, you're gonna need a longer focal length, which will bring more issues into play as well.

you can't move the buildings around. and you don't always have to take the whole scene in. sometimes, a part of a whole can be interesting too. try to shoot them individually and see what you get.

and try more angles to shoot from
 

nitewalk

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May 31, 2010
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#10
i have to agree with Manita.

and really, what Nitewalk is trying to explain is what Manita already said.

look at your composition and framing.

\

1st: Rule of Thirds

what you have is a prominent subject that's really different from the rest, on the edge of the frame: the Indoor Stadium. your viewer's eyes will be struggling between that and the condominiums on the right side, which sit nicely in the Rule of Thirds

2nd: Leading Lines

your horizon is in the center. that's ok, since you're portraying symmetry. but what you have at the bottom half is also whatever it is in the water.
notice that it forms a line? and where does it point? somewhere in between the condominium and Indoor Stadium, where there's nothing. a little empty space. now this confuses the viewer's eyes even more. where do i look at?

3rd: distractions

now, not only does it form a line, it's very prominent in the forground and ends somewhere around the bottom 1/3 of the image. back to the Rule of Thirds. you've got your viewer staring at a distraction.

conclusion:
it's basically not 3 elements you're trying to focus on. it's just bad framing and positioning. what you need to work on in here, is your composition and framing. you have 3 different subjects fighting for attention here.

and that's what nitewalk's trying to explain, though in a very...confusing way.

and IMHO... if you want to compress the buildings together, you're gonna need a longer focal length, which will bring more issues into play as well.

you can't move the buildings around. and you don't always have to take the whole scene in. sometimes, a part of a whole can be interesting too. try to shoot them individually and see what you get.

and try more angles to shoot from
Thanks kei for the clearer explanation and unpacking what i am trying to say! :)
 

kei1309

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Apr 12, 2010
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#11
Thanks kei for the clearer explanation and unpacking what i am trying to say! :)
no worries. as a teacher, you need to explain clearly, and put things simply for your students to understand.

when you start out as a new student, the last thing you want to hear are the advanced techniques when you do not have a grasp of the basics.
 

nitewalk

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#12
no worries. as a teacher, you need to explain clearly, and put things simply for your students to understand.

when you start out as a new student, the last thing you want to hear are the advanced techniques when you do not have a grasp of the basics.
As they say, you don't truly understand concepts until you can explain it in the simplest terms. Therefore, it shows that my understanding of the concepts here is not complete. It might be an altogether different thing for the subject matter I am teaching, which i seek to simplify. Anyway, I don't believe anyone is a teacher here. Perhaps more of trying to share our opinions. Cheers! :)
 

kei1309

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Apr 12, 2010
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#13
As they say, you don't truly understand concepts until you can explain it in the simplest terms. Therefore, it shows that my understanding of the concepts here is not complete. It might be an altogether different thing for the subject matter I am teaching, which i seek to simplify. Anyway, I don't believe anyone is a teacher here. Perhaps more of trying to share our opinions. Cheers! :)
everyone is a teacher bro, when you impart what you know to someone else.
 

MGohzxc

Senior Member
Jun 12, 2010
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Singapore
#14
Hi Thoongeng, I've been in CS coming to 3 years now and I am still learning, and we all share and learn. Not forgetting that I have also learned from many CS members here and most of the time, learning in a silent way.There will be many different views and advise to one photo and you must also think for your own photo. That is self critique. If you are serious.

This is what I feel for those who post in the critique corner and is important. Of course if this photo was shot in another country then you can't do what I'm about to say :

After you have received all the C&C, you must make an effort to go back there to shoot again and find out for yourself what you have done wrong the first time and what are the C&C you have received will work on this spot that you are shooting. If this is not the spot or angle and will not work out for you or in getting a good composition, find a different angle again and come back to critique corner for another round of C&C in this same thread. People will know that you have gone back there and put in the effort to try again. Otherwise, receiving all those C&C and just say yes and thank you will not really mean anything.

So will you go back and try again....:)

This is how I really learn and a lot of hard work and time spent. Going back to do re-shoot is a good learning curve.
 

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thoongeng

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2010
1,276
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#15
Don't worry, I totally didn't think of you trying to put me down and even if you don't agree with my critique it is perfectly fine as I am just sharing my humble opinion with you and i might even learn if you critically think through my critique. Balancing the composition is important, but I feel it is equally important to have a harmonious co-existence of the elements in your frame. For me, these three somehow didn't work well together in terms of co-existence. It is a good try nonetheless and I love the way you controlled the exposure, especially for the condo and the reflection! It is so easy to blow the highlights for the reflections, but i thought you handled that well! :)
Thanks for sharing and your compliment. Guess my timing was ok so the dynamic range was not too great, and also thanks to modern technology I could recover quite well from my slight underexposure to hold the highlights in the sky. Exposure stuff I'm a bit better, composition wise I still have a long way to go haha!
 

thoongeng

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2010
1,276
20
38
#16
i have to agree with Manita.

and really, what Nitewalk is trying to explain is what Manita already said.

look at your composition and framing.


1st: Rule of Thirds

what you have is a prominent subject that's really different from the rest, on the edge of the frame: the Indoor Stadium. your viewer's eyes will be struggling between that and the condominiums on the right side, which sit nicely in the Rule of Thirds

2nd: Leading Lines

your horizon is in the center. that's ok, since you're portraying symmetry. but what you have at the bottom half is also whatever it is in the water.
notice that it forms a line? and where does it point? somewhere in between the condominium and Indoor Stadium, where there's nothing. a little empty space. now this confuses the viewer's eyes even more. where do i look at?

3rd: distractions

now, not only does it form a line, it's very prominent in the forground and ends somewhere around the bottom 1/3 of the image. back to the Rule of Thirds. you've got your viewer staring at a distraction.

conclusion:
it's basically not 3 elements you're trying to focus on. it's just bad framing and positioning. what you need to work on in here, is your composition and framing. you have 3 different subjects fighting for attention here.

and that's what nitewalk's trying to explain, though in a very...confusing way.

and IMHO... if you want to compress the buildings together, you're gonna need a longer focal length, which will bring more issues into play as well.

you can't move the buildings around. and you don't always have to take the whole scene in. sometimes, a part of a whole can be interesting too. try to shoot them individually and see what you get.

and try more angles to shoot from
Thanks kei for your nicely formatted and comprehensive write up (and sacrificing your sleep time =p)

Oops those are things I read before in composition write-ups, but applying them in actual practice not that simple heh...
The 'leading line' was supposed to lead to the sun, but sun wasn't obvious, and ya agree that the Indoor stadium and condos are stealing attention when they are not being 'led to'

Thus my composition falls apart :embrass:
 

thoongeng

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2010
1,276
20
38
#17
Hi Thoongeng, I've been in CS coming to 3 years now and I am still learning, and we all share and learn. Not forgetting that I have also learned from many CS members here and most of the time, learning in a silent way.There will be many different views and advise to one photo and you must also think for your own photo. That is self critique. If you are serious.

This is what I feel for those who post in the critique corner and is important. Of course if this photo was shot in another country then you can't do what I'm about to say :

After you have received all the C&C, you must make an effort to go back there to shoot again and find out for yourself what you have done wrong the first time and what are the C&C you have received will work on this spot that you are shooting. If this is not the spot or angle and will not work out for you or in getting a good composition, find a different angle again and come back to critique corner for another round of C&C in this same thread. People will know that you have gone back there and put in the effort to try again. Otherwise, receiving all those C&C and just say yes and thank you will not really mean anything.

So will you go back and try again....:)

This is how I really learn and a lot of hard work and time spent. Going back to do re-shoot is a good learning curve.
Thanks and yup I will go back to re-shoot...
thinking will have to include less stuff, looking at where the sun is probably just the condo
if can find complimentary foreground then include, if not then probably emphasize the reflection and symmtery
probably also try nitewalk's suggestion of a panorama and include more to the left of the indoor stadium (it's the Sports Hub under construction, looked messy so I excluded it that time). Likely will make the buildings smaller and emphasize the sky/reflections, provided the sky is cooperative ;)
 

daredevil123

Moderator
Staff member
Oct 25, 2005
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48
lil red dot
#18
Bro,

When you place any element with any hint of a line, you really have to watch where it leads the viewer. I think if you chosen a spot without the foreground, and shoot slightly wider to include the stadium more, or cut out the stadium all together, you would have nailed the shot.

And please do not be discouraged. This is a great piece apart from the minor points in composition you did not think about. It is more being more observant at the scene most of the time and it does comes with practice.
 

thoongeng

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2010
1,276
20
38
#19
Bro,

When you place any element with any hint of a line, you really have to watch where it leads the viewer. I think if you chosen a spot without the foreground, and shoot slightly wider to include the stadium more, or cut out the stadium all together, you would have nailed the shot.

And please do not be discouraged. This is a great piece apart from the minor points in composition you did not think about. It is more being more observant at the scene most of the time and it does comes with practice.
Thanks boss for dropping by and for the encouraging words :)

Yup agree with you, now realised the foreground didn't serve it's purpose and became a distraction in the end heh...

Will keep your suggestions in mind when I check out the location again thanks!
 

dw8888

New Member
Sep 27, 2007
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0
0
#20
i like the color on the first look. it attracted me. I don't like the white spot in the sky. I don't like the suddenly empty space in the center left on the ground. I don't like the black piece of stone on the left. But overall, it look OK to me.
 

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