Is there actually anything Wrong - 7D?


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sulhan

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Hiee Pals...

Juz got off a conversation and some casual trials with the 7D with a contact....and then rviwed again on weather there is actualy anything wrong with the Dynax 7D metering in Manual Mode "M" with flash.

It really look like there is actually nothing wrong. Why? Lets see...here are some pointers...to consider...

In Manual Mode (M):

Case 1a: Without Flash - Assuming Without Flash in a Dimly Lit Room
User will play/tweak the Aperture and Shutter to make the indicator move to center for a "properly exposed shot". Let say the Settings were as follows: Tv:10" Av: f4.5

Case 1b: Without Flash again - Now in the same room, with a light on the ceiling turned on.

Now based on the Photographer's choice of keeping the Shutter Speed same - Tv: 10"
now the new aperture that corresponds to the same exposure with the light is now at Av: f13.

**The above examples do not have flash as main source of illumination.

Case 2a: Now With Flash (either pop up or 3600/5600) in the same Dimly Lit Room
Now, the metering indicator shows fixed center point on the metering scale. Why? Probably because now the camera (Come on after paying $2500 for a body you would expect some level of automation wonders here....) will "DIE-DIE!" take the shot ...in the dim room...with flash.... And get a properly exposed shot. Hence this equates to the metering indicator to be always in the center. As long as the subject is within the power coverage of the flash, then it will take the shot properly exposed. Therefore.....the camera is now telling you that...
- Okay Leave it to me...I'll do the job....!!!!
With the flash on board or mounted e.g 3600... If the photographer decides to choose the max shutter speed....i.e...the shutter will go to its max at Tv: 1/125sec. Now If the user tweaks the aperture....As long as the flash power is sufficient based on the distance + Aperture combo at specific ISO, the image should be correctly exposed.
However, If the shutter speeds chosen is really slow....say 15sec....and the subject distance is within power range, the subject e.g 1.5metres will be lit with the first blast of flash at exposure time.....and the rest of the 14++ sec or so will then be ambient lighting (maybe from TV or street light etc).....

So if let say i wanna play with DOF then with the specific Shutter speed like flash sync (Tv:1/125sec) i just need to play with aperture ......

From the above cases, it can then be seen that it make sense that the metering indicator in the viewfinder stays in the middle if flash is used in M Mode.... It will move unless the photographer dials in EV compensation +/- which will move the needel left or right respectively. Power of the flash is adjusted during exposure time to ensure the metered scene is properly exposed.

Do feel free to talk more about this....if you think otherwise...

NOTE: Seems like Most of the Under Exposures experienced may be due to using lower guide numbered flash....(using pop up flash) with a combo of small apertures....

rgds,
sulhan
 

apchoo

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Hi Sulhan,

That was (and to some extent still is) my opinion. There has been 2 other threads on this issue, the later one here ...

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=163265

... was from me after I got my 7D recalibrated back from KMSC (see from post #7).

However, TME did present a viable argument on both occasions. It hasn't fazed me that much so far as I don't shoot in "M" mode + flash.
 

pai

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TME said:
Nope that is not correct. If the camera is on manual and the flash on TTL. The exposure meter scale should show if the ambient light is underexposed or overexposed or spot. It should move along as u change the aperture in A mode or as u change the shutter speed in S mode. The flash will just fill in the subject if any.

The problem is this: In manual mode for camera and TTL for flash where applicable.

If I meter a low light scene without the flash on and it tells me that my correct exposure is 1/30s at f/5.6. My subject will be shadowed and so I turn on the flash at TTL and then my shot will be perfectly balanced.

But if now I leave the flash on and I move to another brighter location (or dimmer if u want). Now 1/30 s at f/5.6 will overexpose the ambient light. My metering scale should show the ambient light to be xxx number of stops over. However with most 7D bodies, the metering scale remains at 0EV. This means that my picture will be overexposed by that xxx number of stops without me knowing.

The same applies even during the day if u using manual mode to meter and with flash for fill. The metering scale should move to tell u if your current setting is over or under or spot on. Otherwise I have no idea at all if my settings are correct or not short of using an external light meter.
sorry ah, i 5d user kaypo 7d thread. i saw TME's post in the other thread, and i think it makes sense, so i copied it here.

on the 5d, there are two "needles" on the scale when using flash in manual mode. the top needle shows how the user shutter/aperture settings compare to the what the camera metering says it should be without flash. the bottom needle shows the flash exposure compensation setting.

not sure if this is right, but since FEC is set on the 7d by just turning a knob, it also means that you can tell what it's set at by looking at the knob? think it makes more sense that the needle shows what the metering for ambient light is, like what the top needle for the 5d does...
 

apchoo

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pai said:
on the 5d, there are two "needles" on the scale when using flash in manual mode. the top needle shows how the user shutter/aperture settings compare to the what the camera metering says it should be without flash. the bottom needle shows the flash exposure compensation setting.

not sure if this is right, but since FEC is set on the 7d by just turning a knob, it also means that you can tell what it's set at by looking at the knob? think it makes more sense that the needle shows what the metering for ambient light is, like what the top needle for the 5d does...
Are you confusing the EC/FEC settings with exposure metering? The EC/FEC settings are the 2 "needles" you see on the 5D/7D LCD screen whereas what we're discussing is the exposure metering in the viewfinder.
 

pai

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apchoo said:
Are you confusing the EC/FEC settings with exposure metering? The EC/FEC settings are the 2 "needles" you see on the 5D/7D LCD screen whereas what we're discussing is the exposure metering in the viewfinder.
;p you're right, i was talking about what i can see on the lcd, not in the viewfinder.

but in manual mode, the top needle doesn't show EC, but shows how shutter/aperture settings compare to what the camera meters. the viewfinder shows the same thing as the top needle. is this what you mean by "exposure metering"?

the needle on the scale in my 5D viewfinder moves around when i shift from bright area to dark area, in the manner described by TME. i take it this is different from how some 7Ds behave?
 

deslim27

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Most ppl use manual mode for flash to balance the flash power and ambient light. We can't control what we don't know, right? Metering in manual mode with flash is necessary.
 

Del_CtrlnoAlt

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deslim27 said:
Most ppl use manual mode for flash to balance the flash power and ambient light. We can't control what we don't know, right? Metering in manual mode with flash is necessary.
ya... the total lack of metering in manual mode is the problem... i forgot wats my main problem... i think is at aperture priority, the shutter remains constant or something with the flash on it... 1/60 or something... so can't use A mode to shoot.

but to counter it... i normally just use M mode to get ambient light..
 

eow

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Del_CtrlnoAlt said:
ya... the total lack of metering in manual mode is the problem... i forgot wats my main problem... i think is at aperture priority, the shutter remains constant or something with the flash on it... 1/60 or something... so can't use A mode to shoot.

but to counter it... i normally just use M mode to get ambient light..
bro km5d also had these prob...last check with zcf also have this prob too
 

TME

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It's not that there is no metering, it's just that there is no feedback to the user... I am very curious to know how the other brands implement this. Anyone played with a 10D, 350D, 20D, D100, D70s, S2/S3Pro, E-1, etc?
 

zcf

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eow said:
bro km5d also had these prob...last check with zcf also have this prob too
Well, I have tried with and without flash on with Aperture mode again at home.

The flash indeed will play compensation when I change the aperture size from f/2.8-4.0-5.6-8.0-11.0-16.0. From 2.8-8.0 photo turn out to be quite consistence, no under or over expose, but some minor brightness different, at 11.0 slightly under a little bit, 16.0 is under (how far off can the flash compensate is all depend on how strong is the flash and how far is the subject, at f/16.0 the flash is not strong enough to compensate, that why under).

So during aperture mode when the flash is on, the flash become the one being adjusted instead of the shutter time. So I don't think this is a bug then :) .

So to simplifly:
Aperture mode - flash
camera use shutter time only to adjust

Aperture mode + flash
camera use flash only to adjust

As TME mention I am also curious about other camera system like Nikon or Canon, whether they do the same or different.
 

pai

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zcf said:
The flash indeed will play compensation when I change the aperture size from f/2.8-4.0-5.6-8.0-11.0-16.0. From 2.8-8.0 photo turn out to be quite consistence, no under or over expose, but some minor brightness different, at 11.0 slightly under a little bit, 16.0 is under (how far off can the flash compensate is all depend on how strong is the flash and how far is the subject, at f/16.0 the flash is not strong enough to compensate, that why under).

So during aperture mode when the flash is on, the flash become the one being adjusted instead of the shutter time. So I don't think this is a bug then :)
just wondering, is what you're seeing because you are shooting in low light, so the camera locks the shutter speed at handholding speed (slightly over 1/focal length?)? so if light too low, shutter speed won't change. if light too bright, shutter speed also won't change cos locked at flash-sync speed 1/125... i'm playing with my camera now, for a certain range of lighting conditions, changing aperture does affect shutter speed. try it at focal length 35mm or so, in light that gives you a shutter speed without flash of 1/60 to 1/100... should see some changes when flash is up and the aperture dial is pushed.

... whatever it is, i think sulhan and the others are discussing whether the camera gives ambient metering info when in manual mode, so not related to A mode.
 

eow

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pai said:
just wondering, is what you're seeing because you are shooting in low light, so the camera locks the shutter speed at handholding speed (slightly over 1/focal length?)? so if light too low, shutter speed won't change. if light too bright, shutter speed also won't change cos locked at flash-sync speed 1/125... i'm playing with my camera now, for a certain range of lighting conditions, changing aperture does affect shutter speed. try it at focal length 35mm or so, in light that gives you a shutter speed without flash of 1/60 to 1/100... should see some changes when flash is up and the aperture dial is pushed.

... whatever it is, i think sulhan and the others are discussing whether the camera gives ambient metering info when in manual mode, so not related to A mode.
It work that way normally however weird things happened once u fixed on the the external flash
in shutter priority mode ...adjusting of ev will affect yr aperture reading...however once switched to aperture mode...the shutter reading will remain at 1/125 regardless of whether u increase or decrease the ev
 

pai

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eow said:
It work that way normally however weird things happened once u fixed on the the external flash
in shutter priority mode ...adjusting of ev will affect yr aperture reading...however once switched to aperture mode...the shutter reading will remain at 1/125 regardless of whether u increase or decrease the ev
that's cos of the flash sync speed right?
 

TME

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eow and zcf I think u are both confusing the aperture and shutter priority modes with the manual mode.

U will get shutter speed changes in aperture priority mode if the shutter speed is below 1/60s (or also called Minolta's low light 1/focal length rule in this forum). U will also get aperture changes in shutter priority if the shutter speed is below the max sync speed of the flash.

Basically for aperture priority u cannot exceed 1/60s under low light conditions or exceed 1/125s (max flash sync speed) in bright lighting conditions. And for shutter priority u cannot exceed 1/125s in bright lighting conditions. (I do not include HSS into this consideration)

In manual mode, the 1/focal length rule for low light and flash sync speed still applies... However, when the shutter speed is between these two values, and there is a change in either aperture or the shutter speed, the EV meter on the camera does not tell u if the setting u choose is over- or under-exposing the ambient light.
 

zcf

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TME said:
eow and zcf I think u are both confusing the aperture and shutter priority modes with the manual mode.

U will get shutter speed changes in aperture priority mode if the shutter speed is below 1/60s (or also called Minolta's low light 1/focal length rule in this forum). U will also get aperture changes in shutter priority if the shutter speed is below the max sync speed of the flash.

Basically for aperture priority u cannot exceed 1/60s under low light conditions or exceed 1/125s (max flash sync speed) in bright lighting conditions. And for shutter priority u cannot exceed 1/125s in bright lighting conditions. (I do not include HSS into this consideration)
I tried a few different conditions, when switch to Aperture mode, with the flash on, the shutter will stuck at 1/125s :sweat: or only will go higher if HSS is on when pointing at quite strong light, but I never see it go below 1/125s, the EV metering needle stuck in the centre, the flash will try to compensate and make it normal.

TME said:
In manual mode, the 1/focal length rule for low light and flash sync speed still applies... However, when the shutter speed is between these two values, and there is a change in either aperture or the shutter speed, the EV meter on the camera does not tell u if the setting u choose is over- or under-exposing the ambient light.
5D don't seem to have problem with this? When change in environment or aperture or shutter speed, the EV meter will keep jumping to tell whether it is over or under expose.
 

UY79

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zcf said:
I tried a few different conditions, when switch to Aperture mode, with the flash on, the shutter will stuck at 1/125s :sweat: or only will go higher if HSS is on when pointing at quite strong light, but I never see it go below 1/125s, the EV metering needle stuck in the centre, the flash will try to compensate and make it normal.
What lense are you using? Tried a wide angle yet?
 

UY79

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TME said:
In manual mode, the 1/focal length rule for low light and flash sync speed still applies... However, when the shutter speed is between these two values, and there is a change in either aperture or the shutter speed, the EV meter on the camera does not tell u if the setting u choose is over- or under-exposing the ambient light.
I think you made an error here. Manual mode doesn't follow any rules as it let you have complete control over the camera, unless I've mistaken your remarks for something else.
 

zcf

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UY79 said:
What lense are you using? Tried a wide angle yet?
opps, I was using 100mm or above :embrass: . Indeed when I try wide angle, it drop to 1/60s, only when pointing to strong like source then it jump up to 1/125s, or above 1/125s in HSS.
So what Pai mentioned was correct.
 

TuTu_CaR

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I did some test shots in manual mode~~
from my understanding during my film days....in manual mode... no matter what setting the flash will try to balance it up~ so tt will put the metering in the middle... ok my purpose here is to ask some question not to be the expert here.. lol

attached below is my another test shots in M mode using 7D and 5600 HS.

Got 2 questions

1)From the top 3 pics, it seems that my flash is not compensating, meaning not trying to balance it up....all three shots seems to have the same flash output and underexposed... any comments? the flash is in TTL mode..direct on..

2) Then I try to compensate the exposure using EV+0.3 and EV+1.0.... from the below 2 pics...it seems that the photos did indeed brighten up...but in M mode..... i tot the camera will ignore the exposure compensation?????

 

UY79

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TuTu_CaR said:
1)From the top 3 pics, it seems that my flash is not compensating, meaning not trying to balance it up....all three shots seems to have the same flash output and underexposed... any comments? the flash is in TTL mode..direct on..
Flash exposure is different from ambient exposure. It's parameter is set differently and does not take into account shutter speed but only that it's within sync speed. i.e. Shutter speed doesn't affect flash exposure if within sync speed.

TuTu_CaR said:
2) Then I try to compensate the exposure using EV+0.3 and EV+1.0.... from the below 2 pics...it seems that the photos did indeed brighten up...but in M mode..... i tot the camera will ignore the exposure compensation?????
You probably have the option of "Ambient & Flash" set for the exposure compensation custom function. Using "Ambient Only" will result in the same results as your first set of photos.
 

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