How would you run a photography business?

[catchlights]

The idea of this discussion was originated from the last few posts in the Anyone here ever wanted to become pro PG but gave up?

I find it is very interesting discussion but since it deviated from the original thread title, it is better to start a new thread for such discussion and able to have more members to engage this discussion.

"How would you run a photography business? As a non professional photographer."

This topic intend to focus from a non pros perspective, it could be from client/customer point of view, from an artist vision, or a entrepreneur ambition...

as it may help the professionals see things from another views, it may spark some new ideas, it may understand what have been missing, it may need some fine tune on the business strategy..

all relevant discussions are welcome.

 

[Kit]

Speaking from what I have experienced so far.....

Most of the clients whom I've come in contact with are either engaging someone to take photos for the for the first time or have some prior experiences with photographers but wished to engage someone else for a change or simply, they are not happy with the quality of the photos they are getting. Usually, these potential clients contacted me after viewing my works online. Most of the time, they do get taken aback by my quotations, which is quite normal as far as I can tell. Some called back to bargain, some don't call again. This is where being flexible helped a lot but mind you, not in a way which disadvantage myself. I never believed in bending over backwards to get a job. Neither do I believe in rejecting a client outright.

So how? The thing I always do (before giving a quote) is to understand the client's requirements. I specialised in architectural photography and being trained as an architect helped me formulate a proposal and subsequently, a quotation. What if my quotation breaks the bank? Plan B..... knowing the client's objectives means that you most probably can formulate a few options to meet their budget and fulfilling their requirements at the same time. This is my way of being flexible. I try to meet their objectives within their budgets by adjusting my deliverables. I've gotten a lot of commissions working this way instead of shutting up the door altogether.

We as a service provider ought to know what objectives we are trying to meet, that's the very basic.Be knowledgeable about the things you shoot. Once you can do that, a lot of clients are more than ready to listen to what you have to offer.

 

[Agetan]

Interesting analogy Kit.

At the end of the day, I believe in getting the job done well within our chargeable limit.

I think your work scope varies from one to another so it provides greater flexibility to quote.

With my specialisation (children), it is a little difficult to work with different quotations, hence I start with a based fee that I cover my "cost". The other simply add on to the "profit minus cost of deliverable" type calculation.

Also, I believe in specialisation like yourself and don't believe in "Jack-of-all-trade" but the draw back is to constraint myself in an area. But benefit out-weight the limitation as I can concentrate creating rather than fire-fighting exercise even at my busiest time.

Hart

 

[waltztitus]

"How would you run a photography business? As a non professional photographer."

Hi guys, I just wanted to share a bit of my thoughts and opinions after reading through some of the articles and to provide another perspective on running a photography business.

From a non professional point of view, reading through this forums on how to start a business does get a bit gloomy and depressing over time, especially when money and cost gets involved. I wouldn't put the blame on anyone but it maybe because of the elitist mindset or the survival of the fittest (meritocratic) society we are living in.

I am currently a student studying in the states, and am currently holding a position as a creative director in the photography club in the school with a student population of 50,000 students, as well as a photo journalist for the independent news press. I may not have felt the pressure of making the bucks as a professional photographer in Singapore but I definitely know the notion and idea of a pro photographers is relatively different in Singapore and the states. I have interviewed many photographers and have invited some to hold workshops on campus so let me just share my humble thoughts on "running a photog business"

Running a business is definitely not an easy task. But I feel that it is being overstressed and overstated over and over again in Singapore and especially on the forum. From a non pro point of view, this is an advice that is almost known to anyone that without a sense of business acumen, you cant really run any business, let alone photography. I just feel that it really dampens that passion, or spirit or even interest of any photographers who are trying to make a living out of their passion. I believe the line between professionalism and "casual" photographers gets overemphasized and it feels as though that status of a pro is revered and should be held in awe.

From my own personal experience, I believe I am really passionate about photography and I put in effort to keep myself motivated, educated and inspired all the time. Having spent almost a year in the states has opened up my philosophy and perspective on photography as a personl. I believe once you understand what you want out of your photography journey and spend a little more time thinking of that instead of thinking of cost, money and how to charge, you will find all of this coming into place and you yourself maturing as a person.

If you spend some time listening to some of the successful photographers interview, http://thecandidframe.blogspot.com/ , you will understand why understanding the philosophy,interest,source of inspiration in photography is so much more important than knowing the difference that professional serious photography business vs casual photography. Chase Jarvis only mentions that commercial work pays the bills and did not say anything more about how you would run it successfully or not. You have Natalie Dybisz is a photographer whose young career began on Flickr and she got approached by Microsoft in no time. They are not a bunch of photographers who spend half their time worrying about making a living or how to jumpstart your career and make good money. Of course you must have some business sense but trust me, google has more articles on that and what we need on forums should be more sources of inspirations and the personal experience that motivates young artists instead of thrashing them down and telling them to brace themselves for a gruelling and tough profession. We all know that every industry is tough there are many starved profession out there and everywhere, regardless of profession. But what keeps us going should be guidance on finding your creative niche, your style, instead of more reality checks.

With that being said, you will realize that running a photography business is no different to maintaining a friendship. Your sincerity, your creative output, your effort that you put into will be the noticed by people. With technology catching up and all the information online, you don't have to teach someone to take a picture with good bokeh or wedding style(its known as journalistic style in US) photography. However, your creative niche, and philosophy is something that can never be taken away from you and people will recognize that and remember it for a long time. You don't have to go down to nitty gritty details about what price to charge but you should know where you are heading towards with that camera in your hand. To me, this process of running business is not something to be overstressed about, I have a camera and the gear and people's feedback have been good. So by word of mouth, I get offered to cover events and I even volunteer to shoot free for non profit organization because that is part of my dream and philosophy. I like the challenge of shooting on the fly, so I tried photojournalism and I enjoy it very much and produced even better photos. Quite a number of Photographers in the states don't come from a photog degree and dont brag about their awards of whether they are part of the NPPA. You know that they love what they do and they share it with the world. They aim to write books to inspire others. But yup, I will try to strike a balance and come back to CS forums at times for the harsh elitist reality checks when needed but I will always to look at other works and life stories/biographies of successful photographers to be constantly inspired(and a more positive outlook on how they run their business and trust me they have advices that are not as grim as some mentioned here) and then go out explore what you like and find the source of inspiration, which is not money hopefully.

Most importantly, know why you started photography. and running a business should be second in nature to you.

My two cents.

 

[Winsonapm]

"How would you run a photography business? As a non professional photographer."

Hi guys, I just wanted to share a bit of my thoughts and opinions after reading through some of the articles and to provide another perspective on running a photography business.

From a non professional point of view, reading through this forums on how to start a business does get a bit gloomy and depressing over time, especially when money and cost gets involved. I wouldn't put the blame on anyone but it maybe because of the elitist mindset or the survival of the fittest (meritocratic) society we are living in.

I am currently a student studying in the states, and am currently holding a position as a creative director in the photography club in the school with a student population of 50,000 students, as well as a photo journalist for the independent news press. I may not have felt the pressure of making the bucks as a professional photographer in Singapore but I definitely know the notion and idea of a pro photographers is relatively different in Singapore and the states. I have interviewed many photographers and have invited some to hold workshops on campus so let me just share my humble thoughts on "running a photog business"

Running a business is definitely not an easy task. But I feel that it is being overstressed and overstated over and over again in Singapore and especially on the forum. From a non pro point of view, this is an advice that is almost known to anyone that without a sense of business acumen, you cant really run any business, let alone photography. I just feel that it really dampens that passion, or spirit or even interest of any photographers who are trying to make a living out of their passion. I believe the line between professionalism and "casual" photographers gets overemphasized and it feels as though that status of a pro is revered and should be held in awe.

From my own personal experience, I believe I am really passionate about photography and I put in effort to keep myself motivated, educated and inspired all the time. Having spent almost a year in the states has opened up my philosophy and perspective on photography as a personl. I believe once you understand what you want out of your photography journey and spend a little more time thinking of that instead of thinking of cost, money and how to charge, you will find all of this coming into place and you yourself maturing as a person.

If you spend some time listening to some of the successful photographers interview, http://thecandidframe.blogspot.com/ , you will understand why understanding the philosophy,interest,source of inspiration in photography is so much more important than knowing the difference that professional serious photography business vs casual photography. Chase Jarvis only mentions that commercial work pays the bills and did not say anything more about how you would run it successfully or not. You have Natalie Dybisz is a photographer whose young career began on Flickr and she got approached by Microsoft in no time. They are not a bunch of photographers who spend half their time worrying about making a living or how to jumpstart your career and make good money. Of course you must have some business sense but trust me, google has more articles on that and what we need on forums should be more sources of inspirations and the personal experience that motivates young artists instead of thrashing them down and telling them to brace themselves for a gruelling and tough profession. We all know that every industry is tough there are many starved profession out there and everywhere, regardless of profession. But what keeps us going should be guidance on finding your creative niche, your style, instead of more reality checks.

With that being said, you will realize that running a photography business is no different to maintaining a friendship. Your sincerity, your creative output, your effort put into this will be the noticed by people. with technology catching up and all the information online, you don't have to teach someone to take a picture with good bokeh or wedding style(its known as journalistic style in US) photography. However, your creative niche, and philosophy is something that can never be taken away from you and people will recognize that and remember it for a long time. You don't have to go down to nitty gritty details about what price to charge but you should know where you are heading towards with that camera in your hand. To me, this process of running business is not something to be overstressed about, I have a camera and the gear and people's feedback have been good. So by word of mouth, I get offered to cover events and I even volunteer to shoot free for non profit organization because that is part of my dream and philosophy. I like the challenge of shooting on the fly, so I tried photojournalism and I enjoy it very much and produced even better photos. Quite a number of Photographers in the states don't come from a photog degree and dont brag about their awards of whether they are part of the NPPA. You know that they love what they do and they share it with the world. They aim to write books to inspire others. But yup, I will try to strike a balance and come back to CS forums at times for the harsh elitist reality checks when needed but I will always to look at other works and life stories/biographies of successful photographers to be constantly inspired(and a more positive outlook on how they run their business and trust me they have advices that are not as grim as some mentioned here) and then go out explore what you like and find the source of inspiration, which is not money hopefully.

Most importantly, know why you started photography. and running a business should be second in nature to you.

My two cents.

I would value your write-up a lot more than 2 cents, I'm very impressed if you are a still a student pursuing your degree. :thumbsup:

Starting and operating a photography business is liked any other business.
Know your limitations, stay focus and managing costs to stay afloat.

 

[sfoto100]

"How would you run a photography business? As a non professional photographer."

Hi guys, I just wanted to share a bit of my thoughts and opinions after reading through some of the articles and to provide another perspective on running a photography business.

From a non professional point of view, reading through this forums on how to start a business does get a bit gloomy and depressing over time, especially when money and cost gets involved. I wouldn't put the blame on anyone but it maybe because of the elitist mindset or the survival of the fittest (meritocratic) society we are living in.

I am currently a student studying in the states, and am currently holding a position as a creative director in the photography club in the school with a student population of 50,000 students, as well as a photo journalist for the independent news press. I may not have felt the pressure of making the bucks as a professional photographer in Singapore but I definitely know the notion and idea of a pro photographers is relatively different in Singapore and the states. I have interviewed many photographers and have invited some to hold workshops on campus so let me just share my humble thoughts on "running a photog business"

Running a business is definitely not an easy task. But I feel that it is being overstressed and overstated over and over again in Singapore and especially on the forum. From a non pro point of view, this is an advice that is almost known to anyone that without a sense of business acumen, you cant really run any business, let alone photography. I just feel that it really dampens that passion, or spirit or even interest of any photographers who are trying to make a living out of their passion. I believe the line between professionalism and "casual" photographers gets overemphasized and it feels as though that status of a pro is revered and should be held in awe.

From my own personal experience, I believe I am really passionate about photography and I put in effort to keep myself motivated, educated and inspired all the time. Having spent almost a year in the states has opened up my philosophy and perspective on photography as a personl. I believe once you understand what you want out of your photography journey and spend a little more time thinking of that instead of thinking of cost, money and how to charge, you will find all of this coming into place and you yourself maturing as a person.

If you spend some time listening to some of the successful photographers interview, http://thecandidframe.blogspot.com/ , you will understand why understanding the philosophy,interest,source of inspiration in photography is so much more important than knowing the difference that professional serious photography business vs casual photography. Chase Jarvis only mentions that commercial work pays the bills and did not say anything more about how you would run it successfully or not. You have Natalie Dybisz is a photographer whose young career began on Flickr and she got approached by Microsoft in no time. They are not a bunch of photographers who spend half their time worrying about making a living or how to jumpstart your career and make good money. Of course you must have some business sense but trust me, google has more articles on that and what we need on forums should be more sources of inspirations and the personal experience that motivates young artists instead of thrashing them down and telling them to brace themselves for a gruelling and tough profession. We all know that every industry is tough there are many starved profession out there and everywhere, regardless of profession. But what keeps us going should be guidance on finding your creative niche, your style, instead of more reality checks.

With that being said, you will realize that running a photography business is no different to maintaining a friendship. Your sincerity, your creative output, your effort that you put into will be the noticed by people. With technology catching up and all the information online, you don't have to teach someone to take a picture with good bokeh or wedding style(its known as journalistic style in US) photography. However, your creative niche, and philosophy is something that can never be taken away from you and people will recognize that and remember it for a long time. You don't have to go down to nitty gritty details about what price to charge but you should know where you are heading towards with that camera in your hand. To me, this process of running business is not something to be overstressed about, I have a camera and the gear and people's feedback have been good. So by word of mouth, I get offered to cover events and I even volunteer to shoot free for non profit organization because that is part of my dream and philosophy. I like the challenge of shooting on the fly, so I tried photojournalism and I enjoy it very much and produced even better photos. Quite a number of Photographers in the states don't come from a photog degree and dont brag about their awards of whether they are part of the NPPA. You know that they love what they do and they share it with the world. They aim to write books to inspire others. But yup, I will try to strike a balance and come back to CS forums at times for the harsh elitist reality checks when needed but I will always to look at other works and life stories/biographies of successful photographers to be constantly inspired(and a more positive outlook on how they run their business and trust me they have advices that are not as grim as some mentioned here) and then go out explore what you like and find the source of inspiration, which is not money hopefully.

Most importantly, know why you started photography. and running a business should be second in nature to you.

My two cents.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[catchlights]

Speaking from what I have experienced so far.....

Most of the clients whom I've come in contact with are either engaging someone to take photos for the for the first time or have some prior experiences with photographers but wished to engage someone else for a change or simply, they are not happy with the quality of the photos they are getting. Usually, these potential clients contacted me after viewing my works online. Most of the time, they do get taken aback by my quotations, which is quite normal as far as I can tell. Some called back to bargain, some don't call again. This is where being flexible helped a lot but mind you, not in a way which disadvantage myself. I never believed in bending over backwards to get a job. Neither do I believe in rejecting a client outright.

So how? The thing I always do (before giving a quote) is to understand the client's requirements. I specialised in architectural photography and being trained as an architect helped me formulate a proposal and subsequently, a quotation. What if my quotation breaks the bank? Plan B..... knowing the client's objectives means that you most probably can formulate a few options to meet their budget and fulfilling their requirements at the same time. This is my way of being flexible. I try to meet their objectives within their budgets by adjusting my deliverables. I've gotten a lot of commissions working this way instead of shutting up the door altogether.

We as a service provider ought to know what objectives we are trying to meet, that's the very basic.Be knowledgeable about the things you shoot. Once you can do that, a lot of clients are more than ready to listen to what you have to offer.

thank for sharing.

yes, give what clients want without braking our back...

 

[catchlights]

Interesting analogy Kit.

At the end of the day, I believe in getting the job done well within our chargeable limit.

I think your work scope varies from one to another so it provides greater flexibility to quote.

With my specialisation (children), it is a little difficult to work with different quotations, hence I start with a based fee that I cover my "cost". The other simply add on to the "profit minus cost of deliverable" type calculation.

Also, I believe in specialisation like yourself and don't believe in "Jack-of-all-trade" but the draw back is to constraint myself in an area. But benefit out-weight the limitation as I can concentrate creating rather than fire-fighting exercise even at my busiest time.

Hart

Hi Hart, both of us we are specialize in portraits, serving more on consumer base, our service chargers are very different from commercial sectors. so usually we set a package deal or base price plus add on items.


like to share with everyone that...
we have to consistently educate our customers that the service charges is only cover for our time and talent.
how we price our charges is telling customers how we value our "time" and "talent". if we don't value our "time" and "talent", don't expect customers will value your "time" and "talent".

 

[catchlights]

.........................

Hi guys, I just wanted to share a bit of my thoughts and opinions after reading through some of the articles and to provide another perspective on running a photography business.........................................................

Most importantly, know why you started photography. and running a business should be second in nature to you.

My two cents.

thanks for sharing, is a very good read, definitely more than two cents.

it is not easy to run a business and still able to hold on to the passion. I'm still trying..

 

[catchlights]

I would value your write-up a lot more than 2 cents, I'm very impressed if you are a still a student pursuing your degree. :thumbsup:

Starting and operating a photography business is liked any other business.
Know your limitations, stay focus and managing costs to stay afloat.

Thank you bro Winson.

you sum it very well.
Know your limitations, stay focus and managing costs to stay afloat. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[waltztitus]

I would value your write-up a lot more than 2 cents, I'm very impressed if you are a still a student pursuing your degree. :thumbsup:

Starting and operating a photography business is liked any other business.
Know your limitations, stay focus and managing costs to stay afloat.

Thanks. It might because I am still a student that's why I don't see the tough and pessimistic side of the industry. However, Just like a carefree child or a toddler, we should still strive to keep that curiosity and creativity within us as we grow and I'm pretty sure there are many successful stories of how rewarding a photography career/business can be and I look forward to seeing more people share those stories on the forum.

thanks for sharing, is a very good read, definitely more than two cents.

it is not easy to run a business and still able to hold on to the passion. I'm still trying..

Thanks for starting the thread! It is true that its hard to juggle both and there are times many people loses their interest halfway due to different factors. I recommend listening to this very worthwhile podcasto of David Duchemin's.
http://thecandidframe.blogspot.com/2010/02/candid-frame-90-david-duchemin.html
He shares about how he sets aside time to just shoot what he really wants (e.g, a yoga session shoot) instead of shooting for more clients. I guess the key is to know when to turn down an offer, not get blinded by money (which is kinda hard I believe) and go pursue and reward yourself in doing what you like.

Regardless, I think I've learnt quite abit while writing my response as well. Thanks again.

 

[agape01]

A interesting thread indeed.

Looks like I have to start coming out of my shell. I am finishing up my 2nd degree at the prestigous Brooks Institute in California. Concentrating on Portraiture, what everyone has said so far does have a valid point. The only thing that would be different is someone running a studio vs someone running a studio from the comfort of your house.

I have seen houses that are designed and converted to working places where they meet and show clients their work, their style thus making their home a office as well. This saves money but there has to be a proper balance between office and family time.

Someone once said that if you are getting 3-4/10 weddings/assignments a month, your price is just about right, meeting 10/10... most likely you are too cheap. Overall, there needs to be a balance on your operating costs and how much more would it take to give you a profit on each assignment.

The other thing at Brooks is that you are also kind of being educated in the business aspect as well. At the same time, you have the choice on how much you want to gain from those classes and how much you want to apply them.

My 2 cents.

 

[Jed]

I am finishing up my 2nd degree at the prestigous Brooks Institute in California.

It's nothing personal, but am I the only one who finds it odd that you have to point out the prestige of your educational institution? ^.^

With a less than prestigious spelling mistake along the way

 

[Agetan]

Someone once said that if you are getting 3-4/10 weddings/assignments a month, your price is just about right, meeting 10/10... most likely you are too cheap. Overall, there needs to be a balance on your operating costs and how much more would it take to give you a profit on each assignment.

My 2 cents.

Interesting that you mentioned it...

It is impossible to book every single job if you want a life...

It is also a good evaluation on how much one should charge.

Regards,

Hart

 

[night86mare]

Looks like I have to start coming out of my shell. I am finishing up my 2nd degree at the prestigous Brooks Institute in California. Concentrating on Portraiture, what everyone has said so far does have a valid point. The only thing that would be different is someone running a studio vs someone running a studio from the comfort of your house.

i am really curious as to what a photography degree encompasses.

:dunno::dunno::dunno:

so at the risk of being ot, can you give all of us a short overview of what the prestigious brooks institute in california has in store for anyone who tries to get in (assuming that since it is prestigious, it will be quite competitive to get in)?

thanks.

 

[agape01]

i am really curious as to what a photography degree encompasses.

:dunno::dunno::dunno:

so at the risk of being ot, can you give all of us a short overview of what the prestigious brooks institute in california has in store for anyone who tries to get in (assuming that since it is prestigious, it will be quite competitive to get in)?

thanks.

Frankly speaking, at this point of time Brooks would most likely take in anyone who is able to pay. However, for Singaporeans have to take the TOFEL exam and must score at least a 550.

What makes Brooks great is the technical knowledge that you will be getting. How you get that is through weekly photo critiques by your instructor and your classmates. You would want to shoot better and expose your images better because you are constantly facing competition. That is the competition that you are facing consistantly. The instructors all have industry experience and know what kind of quality of images would sell and be beneficial to you in the long run.

At the same time, you also have the general university classes that you have to take. From Humanities to Literature to Mathematics to Business.

On the whole, you are taking one photography class and one elective class in a time span of 7 weeks.

If anyone would like to see a copy of the syllabus, please PM me your email and I'll send it over to you.

 

[mattlock]

I don't think you need to go to the US to learn photography. This is from someone who studied photography in the US. A lot of technical information is best learnt by actually playing around with equipment.
An important trait of a photographer is to know how to experiment and learn. The shoots I learnt most from were the ones I messed up.
I would encourage all photographers to lose the mentality of having to go to "classes" and "workshops" and instead spend the time messing around (with hardware, software, etc)
This is from the point of view of a guy who grew up in a DOS era so everything I learnt was through trial and error...

Next, regarding running a photography BUSINESS, I suggest you don't think about "passion" first and think about business first.
Why should anyone use your services versus another photographer
what is your key selling point (speed, quality, flexibility, price?)
Are you identifying new commercial niches that need to be filled?
What is your marketing plan, do you have your contracts all sorted out? (I just came out of a conversation with a friend in which she was complaining about how a few wedding photographers never got back to her with proper confirmations or contracts, which is a big deal for quite a number of clients)

From experience, "passion" is the excuse that clients give to screw you over.
You never hear people using the word "passion" on plumbers to get them to plumb for free do you?

Summary: Treat photography business as a plumber would treat a plumbing business

 

[Jed]

Summary: Treat photography business as a plumber would treat a plumbing business

Interesting you should mention plumbers. I actually made that connection between photographers and plumbers myself this afternoon. Although it was on a slightly different note.

I have been wondering if some people don't equate photographers much like plumbers; when looking to get married, they ring round to find the cheapest quote much like people ring round to find the cheapest plumber.

Maybe I'm doing plumbers a disservice but I'd really hope clients were a little bit more discerning when it came to picking photographers, but I'm starting to wonder a lot of the time.

And having said all that, plumbers earn a lot in this country ^.^

 

[pokiemon]

how i would run my business - do it with passion and you will have repeat customers and referral by word of mouth.

how i would charge my clients (must be conscious of market rate) =
cost of equipment amortise over x period + how much my time is worth getting out of bed (by the hour) + premium charged for my skill (adjust for demand)

 

[mattlock]

Interesting you should mention plumbers. I actually made that connection between photographers and plumbers myself this afternoon. Although it was on a slightly different note.

I have been wondering if some people don't equate photographers much like plumbers; when looking to get married, they ring round to find the cheapest quote much like people ring round to find the cheapest plumber.

Maybe I'm doing plumbers a disservice but I'd really hope clients were a little bit more discerning when it came to picking photographers, but I'm starting to wonder a lot of the time.

And having said all that, plumbers earn a lot in this country ^.^

Yes and that's how you should approach it. Because we are like plumbers to most people. And when you think of it that way then you can really be practical in your considerations on how to make money from photography. If you charge more than other people, you have to convince people why you're worth more than the other plumbe...I mean photographer.