How reliable are handwritten invoices for Warranty in a 2nd hand sale?


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Aug 7, 2009
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#1
I just sold my 2nd hand gear last night (with warranty).

Buyer bargained/nego-ed by saying handwritten invoices are unreliable for warranty, because:

  1. handwritten invoices can be doctored/reissued (with new date!)
  2. handwritten invoices don't have printed serial number of camera

First problem, for shops that issue handwritten invoices, he says that any shopkeeper can easily re-issue a fresh invoice with a revised/later date, and throw away the old carbon copy record. This extends the warranty. He pointed out some shops which are family businesses or proprietorships where the owner/boss can do whatever they want to doctor the records. If the boss likes you, you can ask the boss to give you a new invoice which makes your warranty longer.

Second problem, he says handwritten invoices can easily issue new invoice with same serial number of the camera.

In conclusion, the Buyer then said that handwritten invoices are not as good as printed invoices. He then gave the example that all CP invoices are printed and require a employee to login to cashier with password, so each invoice has a login id that cannot be fake. Somemore, he said shops like CP are big, not the small proprietorships (he gave some examples which I shan't name, but they consist some of the most popular camera shops in Sg), so the employees cannot anyhow "doctor" the invoices.

My question is: is there any truth to what he is saying? Is it true that a handwritten invoice is not reliable? If a handwritten invoice is untrusted in the secondary market, then in future I am going to buy only shops that issue printed invoices. Warranty is very important in a secondary market and I do not want to have such problems persuading a future buyer.
 

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Aug 7, 2009
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#3
Another question:

When you go NSC and show them handwritten invoice, does Nikon bother to check the books and accounting records of the camera shop to verify what is the original date of the handwritten invoice?

I thought Nikon only need to see "proof of purchase". If got a time-stamped video of me buying from a shop, that is also proof of purchase mah. tio bo.
 

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Aug 7, 2009
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#4
it depends.

and come on.. printed invoice can easily reproduce also, gong jiao wei
Buyer argued said printed invoice not so easy to repro, because:

1. The shops that issue printed invoice is big shop, employee dun dare to anyhow play play;

2. The shops that issue printed invoices use sophisticated cashier system that need employee to login, so there is record of employee changing records

3. The printed invoice usually is linked to a database record in the accounts, and if a new invoice is issue there will be a duplicate record.


4. For handwritten invoice, it is very easy to simply throw away the old carbon copy, and write a new one. This is even easier if the shop is a proprietorship or family business because the owner can do whatever he wants.
 

night86mare

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#5
Buyer argued said printed invoice not so easy to repro, because:

1. The shops that issue printed invoice is big shop, employee dun dare to anyhow play play;

2. The shops that issue printed invoices use sophisticated cashier system that need employee to login, so there is record of employee changing records

3. The printed invoice usually is linked to a database record in the accounts, and if a new invoice is issue there will be a duplicate record.


4. For handwritten invoice, it is very easy to simply throw away the old carbon copy, and write a new one. This is even easier if the shop is a proprietorship or family business because the owner can do whatever he wants.
talk nonsense..

#1 not true, some small shops use printed invoice.

#2 not true, see previous line..

#3 do you think the camera or lens company is going to care??

same for #4

i think the camera or lens company will only care when TOO MANY suspicious invoices are appearing from one shop.
 

ponders

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Dec 18, 2005
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#7
as far as i know and experience with NSC...

if your equipment is released in less than a year, usually no questions ask, just show receipt to show you bought in singapore.

if equipment say its an older model but you bought recently, they want to see a receipt showing its from singapore (whether or not it must be an authorised dealer i am not sure)

so far my receipts are handwritten.. and they have accepted it.

i have 4 warranty encounters with them. and one of them is after one year but its due to their oversight.
 

Aug 7, 2009
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#9
i think the camera or lens company will only care when TOO MANY suspicious invoices are appearing from one shop.
wah seh. this mean got loophole?

if liddat den anybody can "lim kopi" with camera shopkeeper and sayang him to "refresh" warranty before sale on secondary market. This way, your warranty will never end wan
 

night86mare

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Aug 25, 2006
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#10
wah seh. this mean got loophole?

if liddat den anybody can bring camera shop owner to "lim kopi" and get him to "refresh" warranty before sale lei. This way, your warranty will never end wan
tell me, is this logical for the camera shop owner ?

i think you might be able to convince 1 or 2 bad eggs, sooner or later they will be found out, this problem will be removed. simple as that. shops also have this thing called reputation to uphold. not just with consumers, also with the suppliers.

if say, shopowner keeps doing it for nikon.. sooner or later nikon will refuse to honour invoice from the shop. shopowner get no business because no one wants cameras without warranty, blah blah blah. simple logic.
 

Aug 7, 2009
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#11
orh. I see now.

Of course, some shops feel reputation is impt.

But hor, some camera shops are fly-by-night concerns leh. You see the way they treat customers, I dun think they really care abt reputation whether we supplier or customer

I guess moral of story is buy from reputable shop.

thanks for help answering my questions hor
 

CS TAN

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Sep 3, 2007
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#12
I just sold my 2nd hand gear last night (with warranty).

Buyer bargained/nego-ed by saying handwritten invoices are unreliable for warranty, because:

  1. handwritten invoices can be doctored/reissued (with new date!)
  2. handwritten invoices don't have printed serial number of camera

First problem, for shops that issue handwritten invoices, he says that any shopkeeper can easily re-issue a fresh invoice with a revised/later date, and throw away the old carbon copy record. This extends the warranty. He pointed out some shops which are family businesses or proprietorships where the owner/boss can do whatever they want to doctor the records. If the boss likes you, you can ask the boss to give you a new invoice which makes your warranty longer.

Second problem, he says handwritten invoices can easily issue new invoice with same serial number of the camera.

In conclusion, the Buyer then said that handwritten invoices are not as good as printed invoices. He then gave the example that all CP invoices are printed and require a employee to login to cashier with password, so each invoice has a login id that cannot be fake. Somemore, he said shops like CP are big, not the small proprietorships (he gave some examples which I shan't name, but they consist some of the most popular camera shops in Sg), so the employees cannot anyhow "doctor" the invoices.

My question is: is there any truth to what he is saying? Is it true that a handwritten invoice is not reliable? If a handwritten invoice is untrusted in the secondary market, then in future I am going to buy only shops that issue printed invoices. Warranty is very important in a secondary market and I do not want to have such problems persuading a future buyer.
Did you registered the item online? Is so, you should be able to produce a copy of the website registration which will have purchase date/vendor that matches the hand written invoice. He can go to service centre to verify if indeed the warranty is still in effect.

If the buyer still not satisfy, don't bother dealing with him, for all you know, he will come back and claim this claim that after the deal and then post how bad a seller you are trying to cheat him money here in Clubsnap .;p
 

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ponders

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Dec 18, 2005
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#13
Just an addition...

the practices i know so far that has been happening.

Dealers do at some point "extend" warranty by writing a later date than the purchase date.

But most only do so to "trusted" customers or to their close ones. If they start doing to anybody, that anybody is going to tell everybody, everybody is going to ask that shop to do the same.

Writing a receipt at a later date does have lots of repercussions,
a) it messes up their accounts ultimately
b) an OFFENSE under ACRA rules.

So even though customers do at some point get the benefit of longer warranty, law is going to catch up with them. Principals (Nikon, Canons, etc) may in one point lodge a report to ACRA about their dealer's practices.

So far the shops i have been, when i asked them to write a later date... refused. But they gave me a discretionary "extension" by giving till the last day of the month or the next.
 

Leong23

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2007
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#14
So many funny buyer nowaday....bargain and bargain.

Most of the shops are still using hand-written invoices, and for so many years i had no problem using hand-written invoice with NSC. :)
 

CS TAN

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2007
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#15
So many funny buyer nowaday....bargain and bargain.

Most of the shops are still using hand-written invoices, and for so many years i had no problem using hand-written invoice with NSC. :)
Yeah, if the buyer is concerned about the hand-written invoice, they should just forget about dealing instead of bargaining down the price. I believe it is a tactic to make the seller lower their selling price.

For me, I would rather the buyer comes straight out to ask for a discount rather than nick picking this and that and then try to lower the price.
 

tanjonhan

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2006
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#16
agree with the previous post...i think its total BS....

i had once been offered to have the option of coming back to the shop to ask for a new receipt when the item had probs and had to be sent for servicing..the interesting thing is i have never bought from them before and thus seriously doubt his seriousness in the offer...prob just an attempt to make me purchase from him...

On the other hand, when i was tagging along with my friend in another shop and she tried to bring up the idea of such an arrangement(aunti-fied la..) the shop did counter claim that it was not possible to do so as Nikon/Canon would actually be able to trace if they want to....judging by the date the stocks were released from their records and the receipt date from the shop....

Thus yeah i dun see the prob about hand written invoices...true that the possibility is there...if the buyer wants to be so paranoid, then ask him to look for someone else to deal then.....
 

Dream Merchant

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Staff member
Jan 11, 2007
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#17
Generally, and in the spirit of customer service, I find that these days, most big name agents do not get super anal with the proof of purchase, or harass you if your invoice is handwritten or machine printed, especially if the equipment involved in middle upper to upper cats.

I've sent in warranty products before and they never even ask for invoice or receipt.

Also bear in mind that most of the big 2 or 3 have had a very bad year with stocks dropping last year. The last thing they would need/want is to 'chase' customers away with super mah fan warranty procedures and enforcement. If you go through the numerous threads, you even hear of (at least CSC, not sure of others) agents sometimes repairing or replacing a part and provide service FOC even for out of warranty products. Even Sigma openly provides re-chipping services for lenses - even 2nd hand 3rd hand out of warranty, FOC. In the past, that service would have costed at least S$120.
 

Aug 31, 2005
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Bt Timah
#18
To TS:

I hope u never give the buyer discount, he's obviously trying to smoke u...
 

Jul 5, 2007
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AMK
#19
Q) Buyer bargained/nego-ed by saying handwritten invoices are unreliable for warranty, because:
Ans: Your buyer is just trying to get more discount. Give 10 cents discount and buyer will be happy. If you are responding to people asking you to buy the equipment, then pass them the receipt for some claims, don't. They are cheating their own company for staff benefits on expenses.

Q) First problem,for shops that issue handwritten invoices, he says that any shopkeeper can easily re-issue a fresh invoice.

Ans: Possible, provided the seller and shop is in cahoot. But if the warranty card is already registered, the date of purchase filled will be the period clocked.

Q) Second problem, he says handwritten invoices can easily issue new invoice with same serial number of the camera.
Ans) Possible, provided seller is in cahoot with store. The store can write another invoice but not the same invoice number. Again the purpose of re-issue of invoice is to cheat the start date. Not if the warranty card is filled and registered.

Verdict: Prior all these POS system, receipt are mostly hand written. If you pay by Nets, the nets printout will shot the payment date (but not item detail), so if investigation is requires, your account will show nets payment to the company. If the warranty card is not locally recognised, then it is like grey.
 

Jun 11, 2009
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#20
TBH, I will rather take handwritten receipt than those lousy printed ones which

1. Fades away before the warranty ends
2. Wasn't even printed clearly in the first place.

Moreover...it is always easier and faster to edit and reprint the receipt than to re-write a whole new invoice by hand. In any case, printed receipts don't necessarily mean got serial number.
 

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