Has ClubSNAP become a sourcing spot for cheap photographers. Are we being taken adv?

Are we being taken advantage off?

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Hmm I'm not quite sure how this reply answers my point about not being told - okay maybe vaguely. I guess you are saying that the teacher has no obligation to teach the newbie anything.

My point was saying that all terms and conditions of internship must be stated upfront, in the same way when you discuss with your client on a photoshoot. I'm sure you won't want the client to add new terms as and when he feels like it, that you didn't know about before you took the job?

catchlights said:
there are many things that can't learn from schools or courses
what can they do is do a search, ask around,
cos nobody has a obligation to teach a newbies everything,
be humble, show that you are willing to learn,
showing an attitude, will only make people eager to see how this person bang on to the wall,

if make a mistake, learn from it, that's the best teacher ones can find.
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vince123123 said:
Hmm I'm not quite sure how this reply answers my point about not being told - okay maybe vaguely. I guess you are saying that the teacher has no obligation to teach the newbie anything.

My point was saying that all terms and conditions of internship must be stated upfront, in the same way when you discuss with your client on a photoshoot. I'm sure you won't want the client to add new terms as and when he feels like it, that you didn't know about before you took the job?
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:bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie: just find that if everything lay down in B&W, how much things will the teacher willing to teach or share, and how much can the student gonne learn.
 

Hmm, Im not realyl saying that the "syllabus" or what is be taught be in black and white - that is of course impractical, its the other T&Cs that I'm referring to.

catchlights said:
:bsmilie: :bsmilie: :bsmilie: just find that if everything lay down in B&W, how much things will the teacher willing to teach or share, and how much can the student gonne learn.
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perhaps, but if one party is intent to keep silent and take advantage of someone newer in the field, then its also difficult to be understanding and accomdating.

I've heard of stories where the teacher passed off the student's work as his own in a commercial paying shoot.

catchlights said:
just some simply understanding and accommodating will do.
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just saw another thread, but was removed. I saw 1 mod there say there is nothing wrong with ppl looking for free photographer, i shall not name it, but i am damn upset, why, simple logic, when will the market be better for photographers?

It should start with somewhere, and by stop ppl looking here for free is good.
 

smurfman said:
just saw another thread, but was removed. I saw 1 mod there say there is nothing wrong with ppl looking for free photographer, i shall not name it, but i am damn upset, why, simple logic, when will the market be better for photographers?

It should start with somewhere, and by stop ppl looking here for free is good.
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the problem is we do not have the rights to do so, if the terms provided is clear cut and the photographer well-informed. what if the photographer is just plain interested in learning from experience, do not want to have payment as long as he retain his copyright, but in a way poses marginal competition to the professionals, on what grounds can we stop people from doing so in such engagement?
 

The Psychology of Free photographers

Here I must borrow the quote from our PM dearest "There is no Free Lunch in this world". This is the case for photographers of all sorts. Free photogs, cheap photogs, competitively priced photogs and expensive photogs, you name it.... every one pays some ways or another.

I like to use an analogy - Why is prada, LV, Gucci and all the world's luxury brands sprouting up like infested termites in CHINA? a place where Intellectual Property has no home? and having been and worked in china, these brands are making money in china alone at half the equivalent of their rest of the world's market. Reason being..... if the customer who appreciates and purchase a genuine product wouldn’t buy a fake.... and having said that, a customer who rampage thru (qipu lu of shanghai or the XiuShui Jie of beijing) fake markets wouldn’t afford the real McCoy.

So now.... is IPR a real problem to GUCCI, PRADA, LV? Maybe yes, but I would beg to differ.

In this instance, we look at our perceived "problems" of photography markets in Singapore. Nature has its way of governing the law of economics. If you are a free photog, you will attract more free jobs and "clients" who are unwilling to pay. you will not earn the money you deserve because your mind tells you so. and you are willing to receive whoever asked for.... FREE jobs.

Imagine why would top notch advertising agencies call up Chuan Do and Frey? Mark Law? Boon? (other then they are good) is because they attract the business that way. imagine they did their first expensive job for Ogilvy...and Ogilvy is happy with it. Ogilvy will come back to them.. with the same calling price ... and maybe take a step further... to recommend them to super paymasters.... once they get into the plane of good pay masters... they will only move on that plane and accept nothing less....

haha and if one day some goof ball call up Chuando and Frey and ask them to do a wedding job for 1000 SGD? (would those $1000 clients dare to call them?) hahah dont you think CD will be laughing his socks off and tell them to log into CS and find their own photog.? No offense to CS, but it may not be a bad thing to the commercial photogs at all. (i wonder if those topnotch photogs logs in CS, if so ... please tell us all how you feel ;) )

I like to perceive that there are many celestial planes of our own ability and calling price that we improve to get up to. And in close relation, there are the different levels of planes of customer or pay masters that we wanna attract and get to.

At this point … I like to ask you “ Do you know where you are now? And do you wanna get up one notch more?”

My point now is that there really isn’t a problem in the market. It is just our need to justify why we are not earning more. Customers who find free photogs aren’t really the problem of photographers because they the people who buy “FAKES”(figurative expression). Is that the market you want? I really don’t think so! If you are a wedding photog for 500 SGD… rest assure that you will compete only in that circle. Because people who pay 4000SGD wont find you .

This is the psychology and economics that we need to recognize. It is every bit a scientific formula as to how we press that shutter.

Don’t we all love to be making that REAL prada bag and selling it at top notch price?
Or hmmmm make lousy fakes and sell them at dirt cheap rates and to people who don’t appreciate it at all. I really just mean .... well all need to improve and get better thru experience. no one gets up there in one stride. but how long do you wanna take to get there? (or do you even wanna get there at all?)

I shall finish by closing my opening – the free photogs pay by not earning their ideal fee, and the “free” clients take their chances with the free photogs. On the hind side, Top notch photogs gets their due and deliver their best. Their paymasters….. gets effective products and sleep better at night.

The law of nature never fails to amaze me :cool:


having been to this forum before and giving my outmost and personal judgments on certain events have received me some unwelcome flaming.... so i must pre empt such post again by saying that whatever I suggested here is purely of my knowledge and my willingness to help another fellow photog. i may be wrong or overlooked some points I would welcome all friendly advises or replies. if what ever i mentioned above is similar to any other posts out there it is purely by coincidence and should not be taken in to serious account. hehe lova ya all.....
 

Vinnzcoco, perhaps the whole article is not applicable because budding photographers in the profession and photographers who does not intend to make money through photography are not "fakes". Also although they are not as good as professional who are long in the industry, they ain't lousy by overall standard.

The pricing may be from free to dirt cheap to cheap to affordable, but that doesn't mean they are attending to people who don’t appreciate it at all. it doesn't mean if you spend $50 for each typical meal, people who would only spend $2 for a meal might as well not eat. Perhaps some professionals here would also have experience with customers who wanted their service, pay well for it but don’t appreciate their art at all.

And as you said, "no one gets up there in one stride. but how long do you wanna take to get there?". For the budding photographers in the profession, they ain't going to get the same rate forever, and this is a transition period for them, whereas to the professionals, that is a constant competition though, to different extent to different individuals. The newcomers may eventually fail and quit or move on gradually. But they probably won't be detered just because of some sarcastic remarks on how lousy they are, that they will end up losing money and will never make it, or of the remarks of how the professionals are truely good and will never lose out to them. If they lose money and quit, they would know, but if they are making marginal profits with prolonged hours, they may scrap through and eventually move on if they are determined. They may not make the direct impact on the top notch professionals, but if the size is big, they will affect the market share of the lower segment, which in turn will seek business on the next level, and step wise till the top. top notch professionals do not have to fear about business lost to these guys, but perhaps on the next lower level to them.

but despite of all this concerns, such a trend can hardly be stopped. i think the thread exist probably for the value of what should be done and what should not be done. the only thing that can be done is probably how some people teaches the others how to calculate one's expenses such that one can see for himself, control the pricing for his own sake and not undercut the others by too much. what should not be done would be to belittle, call people names or make fun of other, just becos one feel that their pricing is "ridiculous".

as for whether the top notch professionals are in CS or not, is probably not very much of a concern. what is important to be in the forum is not whether this person can shoot well, but whether he has any communal spirit. if he lacks any communal spirit, he can well stay out of the forum as he would not benefit others in the learning circle, neither be someone whom people can look up to as learning examples.
 

zoossh said:
Vinnzcoco, perhaps the whole article is not applicable because budding photographers in the profession and photographers who does not intend to make money through photography are not "fakes". Also although they are not as good as professional who are long in the industry, they ain't lousy by overall standard.

perhaps i must apologise. i did not realise it was a tread for budding photographers, or is it? and i must also highlight that its only a figurative expression "fake" as to my analogy. and must not be interpreted literally.


The pricing may be from free to dirt cheap to cheap to affordable, but that doesn't mean they are attending to people who don’t appreciate it at all. it doesn't mean if you spend $50 for each typical meal, people who would only spend $2 for a meal might as well not eat. Perhaps some professionals here would also have experience with customers who wanted their service, pay well for it but don’t appreciate their art at all.

When i say people dont appreciate, it is some how similar to why you take your girl out on a hot date to an expensive dinner? people who eat $2 dont deserve to die... they just dont mind eating $2 food... thats as simple as that... if given a choice of hmm lets say Jean Georges of NewYork VS..... say.... mix curry rice for your hot date? its not a sin to eat $2.... just well.. maybe we all should try Jean Georges? i dont mean appreciate them as in their ART but just that the client dont really care if its good or bad art. so these people dont really care about the presentation taste and enviroment of their $2 food... so long it fills them. would you pay $50 for your curry rice at kopi tiam and not care about it? maybe :) its the same reason why mastercards gets denise keller to muck around in the ad rather then just show a picture of their plastic for 30seconds. that campaign is a whoping 7 figure


but despite of all this concerns, such a trend can hardly be stopped. i think the thread exist probably for the value of what should be done and what should not be done. the only thing that can be done is probably how some people teaches the others how to calculate one's expenses such that one can see for himself, control the pricing for his own sake and not undercut the others by too much. what should not be done would be to belittle, call people names or make fun of other, just becos one feel that their pricing is "ridiculous".

i have an article on pricing and quotation in photo biz. " how to quote for a product shoot" and i must apologise for your brittle ego. i didnt felt my article was in any way sarcarism to any one... and read my small prints. :) it was intended to represent my philosophy and my beliefs i have for this industry. ooh and if you read my article there... i hope i dont offend you .... pre emptive*

as for whether the top notch professionals are in CS or not, is probably not very much of a concern. what is important to be in the forum is not whether this person can shoot well, but whether he has any communal spirit. if he lacks any communal spirit, he can well stay out of the forum as he would not benefit others in the learning circle, neither be someone whom people can look up to as learning examples.
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woooo hoooo.... touchy* :)

I swear that the bottom feeders are as important as the big fishes that drops the scraps for them. i hope what ever i have written is helpful to anyone who needs to build a philosophy in this trade. it is just a story ... a tale.... i tell to send a message ... not to inflict racial disharmony or holy war on photography.

but of cos ... everyone have every right in what ever they believe... i wish you well in your journey as a photog too :)
 

well, ego is not an issue to me since i'm not in the trade and have no conflict of interest to be biased in that matter. i would hence have no grounds to be offended, but i do not wish to see fellow photographers being ridiculed becos of their competition in the business. i'm playing my part as a forumer of the community, not as either of the party concerned.
 

Why CS been a source to find free or cheap photographer?
 

smurfman said:
Why CS been a source to find free or cheap photographer?
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simply becos it is a large aggregation of photographers here. and as said, digital photography enables a faster learning curve with more people interested in trying out the trade.

as bad as it may seem, there is probably little one can do abt it rite? i suspect that those who drop the prices are not totally ignorant of the situation and may have done some calculations on their part. occasionally we got the extreme examples to illustrate the issue, but i believe those examples probably is not representative of the actual threat of borderline lower pricing.

issue is - what to do? you can request that people posting in the service request subforum to have at least 100 posts maybe? or to have a tight moderator making sure that the requests stated certain terms clearly to avoid exploitation based of under-informed photographers? but you can't stop the general trend, rite?
 

zoossh said:
simply becos it is a large aggregation of photographers here. and as said, digital photography enables a faster learning curve with more people interested in trying out the trade.

as bad as it may seem, there is probably little one can do abt it rite? i suspect that those who drop the prices are not totally ignorant of the situation and may have done some calculations on their part. occasionally we got the extreme examples to illustrate the issue, but i believe those examples probably is not representative of the actual threat of borderline lower pricing.

issue is - what to do? you can request that people posting in the service request subforum to have at least 100 posts maybe? or to have a tight moderator making sure that the requests stated certain terms clearly to avoid exploitation based of under-informed photographers? but you can't stop the general trend, rite?
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well.. as for the tight moderation part. it would be nice to state on what are the factors that contribute to exploitation. maybe something like cheap services ? removal of all photographers who are offering free requests to join/aid ? as long as theres a good suggestion. i believe the mods will look into this..

but as for exploitation. there has been lots of discussions. but theres still no solid solution to curb it. so i guess if theres a string or a list of guidelines + some suggestions. things will change ultimately.

my POV
 

Let's put it this way, digital photography's existence further domesticised photography. Even large companies are not willing to come up with a decent budget for photography. It happens in Shanghai, itself being a larger market than Singapore. Jobs are easy to get, but pay might not be part of the terms. The floaty bits of the iceberg is becoming smaller.

To any photographers out there who want to do professional work...if you're confident of doing a job, rank yourselves with the professionals. If you're not confident enough, don't offer a discount either. Some of the best photographers in Singapore started off with this code of conduct on personal professional image when they were really amateurs when they started.

Barter-trades among individuals are ok, but don't barter-trade with a business! Your portfolio speaks your price. Don't stop on shooting!
 

Scriabinesque said:
Let's put it this way, digital photography's existence further domesticised photography. Even large companies are not willing to come up with a decent budget for photography. It happens in Shanghai, itself being a larger market than Singapore. Jobs are easy to get, but pay might not be part of the terms. The floaty bits of the iceberg is becoming smaller.

To any photographers out there who want to do professional work...if you're confident of doing a job, rank yourselves with the professionals. If you're not confident enough, don't offer a discount either. Some of the best photographers in Singapore started off with this code of conduct on personal professional image when they were really amateurs when they started.

Barter-trades among individuals are ok, but don't barter-trade with a business! Your portfolio speaks your price. Don't stop on shooting!
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:thumbsup:
 

its a free market. prices are determined by demand and supply. photographers who are really good should not have to worry about newbies nipping at their heels because the quality of their works should speak for themselves.

instead of complaining about people undercharging, save your effort for improving your skills.
i get the sense that there are photographers here who have been shooting for many years and feel that their 'experience' merit them higher fees. quantity doesn't equate quality. you can be shooting for 30 years but if you make no effort to improve yourself and keep your skills and techniques relevant to the times, you don't deserve anything.

change is the only constant, and adaptation keeps one relevant.
 

Blame on the clients who desn't appreciate good photography and prefer cheap photographers.
 

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