Go forth! -Go out to the big sea!


pinholecam

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Jul 23, 2007
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#1
Where the sharks are :D


Seriously though, is it really better to post your photos here and not out in the galleries and get proper critique and maybe learn to fend off 'sharks' that lurk out there just to make ppl have a bad day and pass on their bad karma. ;)




Thoughts?
 

night86mare

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#2
i think the value that some of the better critique-givers who... unfortunately do not necessarily lurk in pentax section or even come in at all... is much more worth it than having the bunch of unhappy people who seem determined to put everyone else down for the sake of doing so.

that said, there are quite a few international forums which can offer value in this aspect as well - fredmiranda and naturescapes come to mind for me, in terms of landscapes/architectural/scenics.. for those who shoot macro and nature, definitely naturescapes can offer some amount of positive advice.
 

maxtmhz

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Apr 4, 2008
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#3
hmmm...
it pays to be considerate to others' feelings when you critique their work, regardless of whether they post it in the right forum or not.
 

night86mare

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#4
learning how to differentiate useful critique from useless critique is just as important as getting it.

granted, it's nice to know if people like or dislike your photo, so you can generally get a feel of whether you're proceeded in the right direction, when it comes to mass appeal. for more artistic takes, it would be harder to get a good response here... but definitely, on the artistic side, concept is a strong point, more than mass opinion about your photographs.

a quick guide as to whether the person giving comments on your photos really bothers, really hinges on how much he or she bothers to explain where they are coming from. for example, "lighting flat!" is not a valid comment to me unless it is explained why the lighting being flat contributes negatively to the photo. after all, there are instances (yes, really!) where flat lighting adds to the end result and desired outcome.

eikin had done up a few good articles on critique, those interested can read them if they have the time:

http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280307
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273960
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273343
 

CorneliusK

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Jan 23, 2010
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#5
I believe its often a case of wanting to share your better works with the local Pentax community rather than to get serious C&C?
 

night86mare

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#6
hmmm...
it pays to be considerate to others' feelings when you critique their work, regardless of whether they post it in the right forum or not.
...and dear sir, how would you propose that this be done?

people are different, if i say "this is good, but it lacks xxx, yyy, zzz", there will be people who will take it the wrong way and see my comments on their work as a personal attack. this is a tested and proven fact, especially in singapore, where we have somehow impressed upon ourselves that we are what we do.

my approach on critique is simple, and is definitely summarised and influenced very much by salman rushdie's statement in "defending the right to be offended" (which isn't really on photographic works, but the same principle applies):

The idea that any kind of free society can be constructed in which people will never be offended or insulted is absurd. So too is the notion that people should have the right to call on the law to defend them against being offended or insulted. A fundamental decision needs to be made: do we want to live in a free society or not? Democracy is not a tea party where people sit around making polite conversation. In democracies people get extremely upset with each other. They argue vehemently against each other’s positions. (But they don’t shoot.)

At Cambridge University I was taught a laudable method of argument: you never personalise, but you have absolutely no respect for people’s opinions. You are never rude to the person, but you can be savagely rude about what the person thinks. That seems to me a crucial distinction: people must be protected from discrimination by virtue of their race, but you cannot ring-fence their ideas. The moment you say that any idea system is sacred, whether it’s a religious belief system or a secular ideology, the moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible.
loads of singaporeans want free speech, but these are often the same people who call for sugar coated comments. what is the end goal of free speech? a free flow and exchange of ideas. can this really be achieved by beating about the bush all the time, and sugar coating every comment on one's work? if i think that your work is lacklustre, that is simply a one-off work, you can always improve. i can call your work horrible, but that's very different from calling you a stupid person who can't produce anything good, for example.
 

seefei

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Mar 7, 2008
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#7
so far, my posting on the main has not received any adverse comment. but i got something worse, stone silence. maybe my works are so bad, ppl dont know where to start. :bsmilie:

so, nowadays if i want to post in the main, it is cos i want to share but not to invite comments, specifically. i find that is a more enjoyable experience in the forum.
 

pinholecam

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Jul 23, 2007
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#8
I find a need to be able to differentiate between the ppl who give good, insightful critique and those that do it for the sake of it, w/o taking into context of what is possible.
Eg. Cliff shot where the critique ask you to go more right where you would have to be super/spiderman, is pure nonsense and very much a textbook answer, not in context to the situation/environ.
I always take the approach to give my perspective/counter on what I think when met with critique. It does not always mean taking it straight on or blindly. Or worse, just a 'ham-tam' session.

But the benefit is great. What I consider good, is not often considered so. Makes me think over what is good enough to be posted and what is lacking. Though its a long learning process.

Posting here, have a few drawbacks :
1. We are usually 'kinder' here. Most Pentaxians are nice ppl and not ugly trolls :)
This can mean very little good critique.
2. Not all the ppl giving good critique are Pentaxians, so they won't even look at the posts here.
3. The tech review thread is easily covered up by other talk and other ppl's stuff, so there is no focus.


I believe its often a case of wanting to share your better works with the local Pentax community rather than to get serious C&C?
IMHO, better works mean letting more ppl know what a Pentax is capable of :D
I do understand the point though, sometimes, one just can't be bothered to counter/fend off mean trolls and ogres that lurk out there.
 

pinholecam

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Jul 23, 2007
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#9
so far, my posting on the main has not received any adverse comment. but i got something worse, stone silence. maybe my works are so bad, ppl dont know where to start. :bsmilie:

so, nowadays if i want to post in the main, it is cos i want to share but not to invite comments, specifically. i find that is a more enjoyable experience in the forum.
I tend to find that no comment just means its ok.
Nothing seriously wrong (but sadly not overly good :cry: )

That is not a bad thing either as it means at least 50/100 :bsmilie:
 

detritus

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Sep 12, 2009
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#10
so far, my posting on the main has not received any adverse comment. but i got something worse, stone silence.
totally agree... damn sianz lor :(

really want to hear constructive, even brutal critique... i'm generally thick skinned and i want to improve but the main sections not always very constructive...

I tend to find that no comment just means its ok.
Nothing seriously wrong (but sadly not overly good :cry: )

That is not a bad thing either as it means at least 50/100 :bsmilie:
but what's the point of having 2, 3 pages of "nice shot bro! thanks for sharing :thumbsup:"

it gets a bit :what: ... know what i mean?

and this is even after i post the full settings: focal length, ISO, shutter speed, aperture so its not like i don't want comments or i haven't posted enough info for pple to comment on. i'm just not getting much constructive comments.
 

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airconvent

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Apr 12, 2005
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#11
Sometimes you just want to share some not-so-perfect snapshots with your fellow pentaxians as opposed to putting it out there and have people wondering why you post such unprintable stuff there. Also, its good to have one location to see shots of other Pentax cameras if that's your interest. having to navigate many sub-forums will not help if this is the intention.
That's why I liked that previous "Photos taken with pentax cameras" here but I also want to respect the forum's rules too. :)
 

pinholecam

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Jul 23, 2007
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#12
totally agree... damn sianz lor :(

really want to hear constructive, even brutal critique... i'm generally thick skinned and i want to improve but the main sections not always very constructive...



but what's the point of having 2, 3 pages of "nice shot bro! thanks for sharing :thumbsup:"

it gets a bit :what: ... know what i mean?

and this is even after i post the full settings: focal length, ISO, shutter speed, aperture so its not like i don't want comments or i haven't posted enough info for pple to comment on. i'm just not getting much constructive comments.
Look at it either as half full or half empty glass :)

No comments just means that.
Some thumbsup now and then just means some ppl like it.
Many thumbs up means you are doing something right. Well done. Do more of the right stuff!
If kenna left right center, usually means something is not quite there yet.


Just need to have patience and I believe insightful comments will come in once in a while.


We can always link the post to the "Tech Discussion" thread here :)
 

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detritus

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#13
Look at it either as half full or half empty glass :)

No comments just means that.
Some thumbsup now and then just means some ppl like it.
Many thumbs up means you are doing something right. Well done. Do more of the right stuff!
If kenna left right center, usually means something is not quite there yet.

Just need to have patience and I believe insightful comments will come in once in a while.

We can always link the post to the "Tech Discussion" thread here :)
i know i can't force pple to give constructive comments. the pic has to be thought provoking enough to trigger such comments and i got one of the more helpful ones from PF, not here...

might be a culture thing? :dunno: or might be a genre thing... i find that portraits forum is more brutal. macro forum, i find very gentleman... atmosphere is generally more supportive and friendly.
 

seefei

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#14
Aiyah, for those thick skin one and die2 want ppl to comment, can pm the sifus for comments. i remember i used to pm nightmare, creampuff & longko (now MIA) to comment on my pic :bsmilie:

I think in private ppl tend to be more open and straight forward. besides their comments, i learned a lot from the references (websites, books, etc) given by these gurus. so, if the mountains dont come to u, go to the mountain, also can.
 

detritus

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#15
Aiyah, for those thick skin one and die2 want ppl to comment, can pm the sifus for comments. i remember i used to pm nightmare, creampuff & longko (now MIA) to comment on my pic :bsmilie:

I think in private ppl tend to be more open and straight forward. besides their comments, i learned a lot from the references (websites, books, etc) given by these gurus. so, if the mountains dont come to u, go to the mountain, also can.
can lah... then next time i PM u ok? ;)
 

pinholecam

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Jul 23, 2007
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#16
i know i can't force pple to give constructive comments. the pic has to be thought provoking enough to trigger such comments and i got one of the more helpful ones from PF, not here...

might be a culture thing? :dunno: or might be a genre thing... i find that portraits forum is more brutal. macro forum, i find very gentleman... atmosphere is generally more supportive and friendly.
Ha.. ha..
very true to the characteristics of each of the galleries :D

Portrait : I can't be bothered
Landscapes : many nice fellas who give knowledgeable comments. Many "try to be"/"text book" type critiques as well
Still Life : Same as Landscapes
Macro and Nature : Generally nice guys who don't comment bad. Maybe they know how hard it is bending over in the heat to do the shoot :D
 

felixcat8888

Senior Member
May 8, 2005
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#17
In all my years in CS, this is only the second time I posted on the Portraits and poses. The first was in 2006 when I just attended the SAFRA photography course. I posted to ask for comments but most of the comments were very critical, only a few were very constructive. Same this time round when I had one guy who criticised my first attempt at portraits after so many moons.

But thanks to the guys here like night86mare, flowerpot, sircam, and the usual guys there like deadpoet, canonised, and some others who really gave me good feedback.

Next time I will post in our tech discussion thread instead . . .
 

pinholecam

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Jul 23, 2007
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#18
In all my years in CS, this is only the second time I posted on the Portraits and poses. The first was in 2006 when I just attended the SAFRA photography course. I posted to ask for comments but most of the comments were very critical, only a few were very constructive. Same this time round when I had one guy who criticised my first attempt at portraits after so many moons.

But thanks to the guys here like night86mare, flowerpot, sircam, and the usual guys there like deadpoet, canonised, and some others who really gave me good feedback.

Next time I will post in our tech discussion thread instead . . .
Sorry, but to be frank, this is exactly the problem right?
Too much safety.

At least you know that the photos out there will be taken apart and maybe set higher standards. Not that the person with harsh/rude criticism is right of course. The worst would be to ignore the trolls or rebut.
 

detritus

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Sep 12, 2009
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#19
Sorry, but to be frank, this is exactly the problem right?
Too much safety.

At least you know that the photos out there will be taken apart and maybe set higher standards. Not that the person with harsh/rude criticism is right of course. The worst would be to ignore the trolls or rebut.
i think it depends on what the person posting wants...

is it a "hey, check this out" - no comments sought... just want pple to see and say hi.

is it a "hey, nice right?" - seeking positive feedback / comments only...

is it a "C&C welcome" - lay it on, do your worse...

most beginners fall into the first category and i empathise. brutally honest C&C can be unconstructive, very discouraging and may turn pple off the hobby. and they don't have the confidence to ignore the overly negative / rude comments yet.

so its better to have a "safe-haven" for them to swim with friendly dolphins first, before throwing them into the sea to battle the sharks and killer whales :bsmilie:
 

felixcat8888

Senior Member
May 8, 2005
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#20
Sorry, but to be frank, this is exactly the problem right?
Too much safety.

At least you know that the photos out there will be taken apart and maybe set higher standards. Not that the person with harsh/rude criticism is right of course. The worst would be to ignore the trolls or rebut.
Yes, but not all of them are "experts". The one that gave nasty criticisms was also shot but the experts and he tried to sound that he is good until nightmare showed us that guy's own thread. I loved that.

I was looking out for constructive comments and there are a number of good ones so I can learn.
 

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