Full frame vs APSC - Crop or crap?


daredevil123

Moderator
Staff member
Oct 25, 2005
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lil red dot
#2
problem is customer expectation...

walk into a wedding shoot with a m4/3 and see what your customer will say to you...
 

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Zenten

Deregistered
Jun 13, 2004
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#3
problem is customer expectation...

walk into a wedding shoot with a m4/3 and see what your customer will say to you...
....show them this video........ and the results later. Then see if they will still complain. :)
 

Berkins

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2010
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#4
Zack has a point. But then again he's a fuji endorsed x photographer. So take it with a pinch of salt
 

sunnycamera

Senior Member
Dec 8, 2010
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SG
#6
when I got my own wedding shooting, I did not realize what camera the photographer is using, I just thought it is big at the moment,

so for non-tech savvy customers, as long as you have a big camera and a big lens, and talks and moves like a pro, that already can build confidence in the customers,

by the way, my wedding photographer using a very old nikon D200 camera (found out later from photo exif info), and I am quite happy with the results, (maybe because there are tons of post process done later as well.)
 

chipvn

Senior Member
Aug 26, 2010
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#7
I tried to watch to almost end of that video to confirm that it not Fuji ad video and look like it is correct (they are properly just stand in front of him)! :D
 

alfie

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2004
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#8
Zack has a point. But then again he's a fuji endorsed x photographer. So take it with a pinch of salt
Yup. I love Zack and his talks (I was lucky enough to attend his talk recently at the Gulf Photo Plus event), but I'm quite disgusted by him bashing the full frames. Matter of time he switches his tone (new sponsor, or fuji decides to go full frame)

There's a balance of skill and suitable equipment for every photographic project, and to base it just purely on 'sensor size' is quite silly.
 

Berkins

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2010
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#9
Yup. I love Zack and his talks (I was lucky enough to attend his talk recently at the Gulf Photo Plus event), but I'm quite disgusted by him bashing the full frames. Matter of time he switches his tone (new sponsor, or fuji decides to go full frame)

There's a balance of skill and suitable equipment for every photographic project, and to base it just purely on 'sensor size' is quite silly.
Yes but end of the day i do get the message across that sensor size doesn't matter that much for what I shoot which is mainly holiday snap shots and ocassional street stuff.
 

poseur

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2009
1,030
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#11
Putting sensor technology like DR aside. In terms of dof you can achieve the Dof of FF on crop. Its roughly one stop of aperture different. f2 on FF dof can be achieve using f1.4 on crop etc.
 

chipvn

Senior Member
Aug 26, 2010
1,232
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#12
Putting sensor technology like DR aside. In terms of dof you can achieve the Dof of FF on crop. Its roughly one stop of aperture different. f2 on FF dof can be achieve using f1.4 on crop etc.
I could not agree on this! Before having a chance to test it myself, I also believe on the theory that the 1.5 crop factor make the lens 50/1.4 equivalent on DOF with the lens 75/1.8 (everything x 1.5). However, I always have a question why many half body portrait photos from film Medium Format TLR/645 cameras that my friends took with 75-80mm/f2.8-3.5 lenses had the 3D Pop effect that I rarely seen in my 1.5 cropped sensor camera with even the f1.4 lens.

I did a test myself with the lens Carl Zeiss Planar 50/1.4 ZK and the Pentax FA 77/1.8 with a FF camera in 1.5 cropped mode and full frame mode and found out that my believe is wrong. Mounting on the same camera on Tripod and tried to maintain the 50/1.4 on cropped mode have the same field of view with the 77/1.8 by changing the distance between camera and subject, here is the result for you or who interested. You can justify it yourselves.


1. The Planar 50/1.4ZK at f1.4 in 1.5 cropped mode:




2. The FA77/1.8 Limited at f2.2 on full frame mode:

 

jaiyen

Senior Member
Jun 22, 2011
3,132
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#13
I could not agree on this! Before having a chance to test it myself, I also believe on the theory that the 1.5 crop factor make the lens 50/1.4 equivalent on DOF with the lens 75/1.8 (everything x 1.5). However, I always have a question why many half body portrait photos from film Medium Format TLR/645 cameras that my friends took with 75-80mm/f2.8-3.5 lenses had the 3D Pop effect that I rarely seen in my 1.5 cropped sensor camera with even the f1.4 lens.

I did a test myself with the lens Carl Zeiss Planar 50/1.4 ZK and the Pentax FA 77/1.8 with a FF camera in 1.5 cropped mode and full frame mode and found out that my believe is wrong. Mounting on the same camera on Tripod and tried to maintain the 50/1.4 on cropped mode have the same field of view with the 77/1.8 by changing the distance between camera and subject, here is the result for you or who interested. You can justify it yourselves.

1. The Planar 50/1.4ZK at f1.4 in 1.5 cropped mode:

2. The FA77/1.8 Limited at f2.2 on full frame mode:
Bingo bro...thumbs up
 

pinholecam

Moderator
Staff member
Jul 23, 2007
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#14
I could not agree on this! Before having a chance to test it myself, I also believe on the theory that the 1.5 crop factor make the lens 50/1.4 equivalent on DOF with the lens 75/1.8 (everything x 1.5). However, I always have a question why many half body portrait photos from film Medium Format TLR/645 cameras that my friends took with 75-80mm/f2.8-3.5 lenses had the 3D Pop effect that I rarely seen in my 1.5 cropped sensor camera with even the f1.4 lens.

I did a test myself with the lens Carl Zeiss Planar 50/1.4 ZK and the Pentax FA 77/1.8 with a FF camera in 1.5 cropped mode and full frame mode and found out that my believe is wrong. Mounting on the same camera on Tripod and tried to maintain the 50/1.4 on cropped mode have the same field of view with the 77/1.8 by changing the distance between camera and subject, here is the result for you or who interested. You can justify it yourselves.
This is lens differences more than format, though I won't say that format does not play a part.
What do we see?
1. 3D pop to the 77ltd
>> lens sharpness from wide open (and in fact, its stopped down to f2.2, thus benefiting from better optical correction )
Legacy 50mm are not 'tack sharp' at wide open though they are sharp enough for most intents
77ltd is a very good lens.


2. Handling of spherical aberration (on that circular thing at the back)
>> Again, different lenses and wide open lenses usually are poorer in that (which is for the CZ50 and not for the 77ltd)
In fact, I've seen some pretty horrible OOF highlights from the CZ50 at wide open.


Its just going to be very hard to show one over the other since different lenses are involved.
A guy using a modern 50mm optic like Fuji 55/1.4 (mostly center sharp), Sigma 50, FE55 on an apsc camera will get different results. (even then diff bokeh too)
At best, we can say that in many cases of real world use, someone with a 50/1.4 on apsc and one with 77ltd on FF will get differing results and in a context as above (ie. subject isolation via shallow DOF for a small object at close focus distance), a nod more for the 77ltd on FF.


There are differences in the formats of course.
Working distance for the same FOV with the same lens (hard to show on a forum; I tend to prefer the less 'far' working distances of FF, though on some days, I have not warmed up and prefer a 'shyish' longer focal length);
for good and bad too since some guys are shy and prefer 50mm used as 75mm
DOF for the same FOV with the same lens - again, dbl edged sword, great for solo portraits, a bit more pain to get the DOF for group shots (while maintaining low ISO and hand holdable shutter speeds);
If using strobes, power needs to go up and recycling time suffers.


I just printed my 2012 Yogja trip into a photobook, it was taken with my K5.
Maybe if its ready by this outing, I will bring it for ppl to see.
The thought that came to my mind when I looked thru the prints...
"Gosh... the photos from the camera (apsc) made it into a book as decent as book prints go.... and I never needed less DOF "
In fact I decided to sell my K30 (if it sells) and get a K3/K5IIs or the next camera after looking thru the prints.


I partly agree with the video.
It usually matters little in many genres (mainly the DOF part is different)
A lot of it has to do with the genre the photographer is shooting.
Studio portraits; Landscapes; most forms of streets & candids; macro and still life, travel photography, less big a deal compared to shallow DOF type portraits/still life

The video is also a shameless plug for Fuji X system :D
 

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chipvn

Senior Member
Aug 26, 2010
1,232
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#15
This is lens differences more than format, though I won't say that format does not play a part.
What do we see?
...
I did not want to mention about sharpness and lens character in those photo, just to show the difference in how strong the focal length actual could do to the out-of-focus area beside the in-focus area. You could get the same amount of in focus area but out of that area is another story!

Again, it depends on how individual shoot but should not equalize everything!

Ps: to me, the CZ 50/1.4 is not the lens to completely blur the background (smooth). It is the lens I use for the purpose to play with the background (bokeh)! :)
 

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daredevil123

Moderator
Staff member
Oct 25, 2005
21,645
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lil red dot
#16
Longer focal length can blur out background subjects much more than aperture... This is one reason why so many people get 70-200 for portraits. Apart from background blurring, long focal length also gives you a lot more compression, which is quite desirable in portraits.
 

sunnycamera

Senior Member
Dec 8, 2010
2,089
5
38
SG
#17
anyone interested and with the tool can try this method, Bokehrama

http://www.daifukusensei.com/blog/?page_id=52

shoot 77mm lens at same spot same aperture with full frame sensor, create 1 shot

shoot 77mm lens at same spot same aperture with crop sensor, but pan the camera to shoot 4 shots and merge into same framing shot with that 4 shots.

check result, that is roughly a result of maintain focal length characteristics and subject-to-camera distance while giving a wider angle filed of view on crop sensor camera.

maybe that is the result medium format or large format give you the 3d pop effect with longer focal length (80mm-100mm for medium format, 150mm-175mm for large format)
and "unexpected" field of view for that kind focal length from the same shooting spot
,
even though they are all 50mm equivlent focal length in term of 35mm format size

------------------

since it is the focal length + subject to camera distance + aperture determine the final feel of look,

for small format, the view just got crop comparing to large format with same above setting, so bokehrama solution make it close to uncrop it.
(of course, the time consuming and the light hitting angle to the sensor during bokehrama makes a slight difference)

like Large format, you can shifting a medium format sensor in the back to mult shots combing into a large format film size. since the lens position and angle ideally should not changing through the whole "single" shot process

same concepts in these 2 example

1. rhinocam:
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/...ex-camera-and-vizalex-rhinocam-by-dierk-topp/

2. medium format digital back mount for large format camera
http://www.fotodioxpro.com/lens-mou...tching-back-adapter-with-focusing-screen.html
 

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ahblack

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2014
1,029
10
38
Singapore (west)
#18
anyone interested and with the tool can try this method, Bokehrama

http://www.daifukusensei.com/blog/?page_id=52

shoot 77mm lens at same spot same aperture with full frame sensor, create 1 shot

shoot 77mm lens at same spot same aperture with crop sensor, but pan the camera to shoot 4 shots and merge into same framing shot with that 4 shots.

check result, that is roughly a result of maintain focal length characteristics and subject-to-camera distance while giving a wider angle filed of view on crop sensor camera.

maybe that is the result medium format or large format give you the 3d pop effect with longer focal length (80mm-100mm for medium format, 150mm-175mm for large format)
and "unexpected" field of view for that kind focal length from the same shooting spot
,
even though they are all 50mm equivlent focal length in term of 35mm format size

------------------

since it is the focal length + subject to camera distance + aperture determine the final feel of look,

for small format, the view just got crop comparing to large format with same above setting, so bokehrama solution make it close to uncrop it.
(of course, the time consuming and the light hitting angle to the sensor during bokehrama makes a slight difference)

like Large format, you can shifting a medium format sensor in the back to mult shots combing into a large format film size. since the lens position and angle ideally should not changing through the whole "single" shot process

same concepts in these 2 example

1. rhinocam:
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/...ex-camera-and-vizalex-rhinocam-by-dierk-topp/

2. medium format digital back mount for large format camera
http://www.fotodioxpro.com/lens-mou...tching-back-adapter-with-focusing-screen.html
Actually the technique has another name called Brenizer Method.
 

SyncGuy

New Member
Sep 14, 2011
1,118
1
0
Earth
#20
Aiya..

MF/LF of coz easier to achieve that 3D look.

IMO, 2 main factors:

1) DR
2) More bokeh whilst maintaining sufficient DOF for a given subject, especially so for adult-sized subject and above.

Point 2 is basically akin to shooting at f/8, yet still have larger in and OOF region, and getting bokeh as if shot with an f/1.4 on FF..

Hard to explain but honestly, if I could, I would recommend everyone to obtain any lens with accurate DOF scale and observe the hyperfocal distance at any aperture.
 

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