Foreign talents... are they ok?

[allenleonhart]

FIRST UP: A BIG QUOTE FROM OUR FRIEND IN THIS THREAD:
DISCUSS ABT
difference in attitude/behaviour and competition in limited resources like occupation & accomodation.

well... lately on news kinda seeing quite a lot of things happening. might be a good gp topic who knows?

first: Singapore restaurant dispute nearly turns violent, the new paper 9th jan. seems like the manager of restaurant was a foreign talent, and i dun think she managed to handle the situation properly


yet again:man runs nude around in singapre. turns out to be aussie.

and another: kamrul hasan abdul quddus was guilty of killing his gf, coincidently, a foreigner.

all cases involved foreigners in singapore

it surprises me yet again, how much foreign talents have actually made it to our front page. dun get me wrong, i'm quite ok and happy with some of the foreigners who actually helped singapore out and we actually benifitted.

lucas arts, invested a branch office in singapore, offering work and training in the 3d animation industry. headed by foreigners.

i'm just curious, what are ur opinions on having foreign talents in singapore? wad could their impacts be and do u think its a good policy?

ty for ur opinions

 

[limwhow]

Good thread that allenleonhart has raised.
A controversial topic with a very broad scope for discussion.
I certainly do look forward to a civil debate of this issue.

 

[MashiMaro]

well...
..
ty for ur opinions

opinions?

i've visited many places, i see foreigners.

living in Singapore i've never asked this question.
why don't one sit at a quite corner and ask themselves, what is Singapore without the foreigners? ..

 

[allenleonhart]

yep. its kinda nice and quite a pressing question. admist the globalisation, how can we draw a line between who is a real citizen and who isnt?

i shall express my views first.

i think foreign talents are ok. provided they are foreign talents. singapore's policy towards foreign talents is such tat we could harness their abilities, in turn using them to train our very own batch of local talents. by doing so, we would have a group of elite singaporeans who could actually compete with the rest of the world. i always raise lucas arts as an example, cause they are real professionals who actually invests here and groom our own local talents. By having our own local talents, we would rely lesser on foreign economy.

another reason why we need foreigners (note no longer foreign talent), would be to increase our population size.this would mean tat we have a larger local economy. china is self sufficient because it has a large population, hence they have a large local economy. unlike singapore, we rely on trade and business for a good 70% of our GPD.
however this is the only part of the policy tat i do not really agree with. one: not all foreigners are foreign talents, it isnt benificial to have a lot of prs who arent skilled nor talented to actually come here, it isnt as benificial cause they are not able to contribute to our economy much. on the other hand, there is also the question of their mentality. they are afterall different from singaporeans. prs are not citizens. infact, on a long term run, this policy will not work as a larger amount of foreigners may result in singaporeans not wanting to give birth more, due to complications such as job avalibility. infact, the problem of job avaliability is so severe tat our own talents actually are migrating to other countries such as the States.

also, another possible implication, out of every 4 people in singapore, 1 is a foreigner. and we are pretty sure not all of them are talents as per se. is this benificial for our own singapore? one possible impact is that we would pretty much turn into a "mini china" soon, going by the figures, the amount of china citizens in singapore is actually rising more and more.

~~ impact on economy big no doubt. but will singaporeans actually become foreigners in their own country?

 

[allenleonhart]

opinions?

i've visited many places, i see foreigners.

living in Singapore i've never asked this question.
why don't one sit at a quite corner and ask themselves, what is Singapore without the foreigners? ..

singapore without foreigners? not possible, our own local economy isnt big enough yet.

however, importing foreigners, will they sustain our economy, or after a few years they hop off to india next?



now tats a big question

 

[aryanto]

what is Singapore without the foreigners? ..

sleepy fishing village :devil:

lets count...
sang nila utama is a javanese prince hm .. foreigner
sir stamford raffles is ang mo .. foreigner
chinese immigrants .. foreigner
indian immigrants .. foreigner
arab immigrants .. foreigner
european immigrants .. foreigner
merlion .. made-up (alien)

what is local? :dunno:

 

[allenleonhart]

sleepy fishing village :devil:

lets count...
sang nila utama is a javanese prince hm .. foreigner
sir stamford raffles is ang mo .. foreigner
chinese immigrants .. foreigner
indian immigrants .. foreigner
arab immigrants .. foreigner
european immigrants .. foreigner
merlion .. made-up (alien)

what is local? :dunno:

well. local as in singaporeans by birth and nationality?

there is a reason why those immigrants decided to band up together and say HEY THIS LAND IS OUR LAND WE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE AND WE ARE SINGAPORE.

and not er. china boy in singapore say i china. usa ppl come say i angmoh.

singaporeans. not ur race ~~

in short, accept citizenship and pledge ur alliance with us

tats why now a lot is PRC scholars, PRs.

very little singaporeans.

and u realise singapore is racist? we practise positive racial discrimination. we are the only country to place race abv nationality on our ics.
http://www.chingling.net/blog/images/2008/10/my-ic-01.jpg

and tats a good thing because, we understand our differences and we accept it. tats why we dun have the type of problems malaysia has. see! 3 churches kenna burn. poor them

 

[aryanto]

so flying dutchman - angmo or singaporean? :dunno:
gurmit singh - indian, chinese or singaporean? :dunno:
li jia wei - chinese or singaporean? :dunno:

I dont think the matter here is not origin but behaviour and quality, conformity to the masses.

It is the same as when I was in australia, an australian student friend of mine asked what make asian so bloody smart?

I laugh and tell him, it cost a lot of money to study overseas, the parents will not invest if they know their children will not be able to make it here. On top of that the nerds that come here to study dont party hard, dont drink much etc so it is automatic their academic result are better, but not necessarily smarter. By the way that friend of mine is Jewish but he look like a Carribean. Most un-Jewish I found.

 

[allenleonhart]

so flying dutchman - angmo or singaporean? :dunno:
gurmit singh - indian, chinese or singaporean? :dunno:
li jia wei - chinese or singaporean? :dunno:

I dont think the matter here is not origin but behaviour and quality, conformity to the masses.

It is the same as when I was in australia, an australian student friend of mine asked what make asian so bloody smart?

I laugh and tell him, it cost a lot of money to study overseas, the parents will not invest if they know their children will not be able to make it here. On top of that the nerds that come here to study dont party hard, dont drink much etc so it is automatic their academic result are better, but not necessarily smarter. By the way that friend of mine is Jewish but he look like a Carribean. Most un-Jewish I found.

i have to agree. conformity to the masses is important. tats the word i'm finding. if u can fit in singapore nicely and be accepted by masses i think we wont complain. but we are complaining abt foreigners stealing jobs. now tats certainly not conforming.

behaviour quality is really important. and hence the difference. foreign talents are the ones who have a way better behaviour and quality. i respect and accept them

yet on the other hand we have foreigners who dun, and they do pose a threat to us. read my first post for a better idea.

quite surprising eh


oh yea. and another point for u to think abt, are our baby bonuses really working? or is it being er, negated by the effect of a pro foreign talent policy. note it doesnt mean every foreigner has to be a talent. must remember. more input from outside sources means lesser jobs and housing and stuff. everything gets more expensive as demand rises and its harder to have kids.

 

[aryanto]

i have to agree. conformity to the masses is important. tats the word i'm finding. if u can fit in singapore nicely and be accepted by masses i think we wont complain. but we are complaining abt foreigners stealing jobs. now tats certainly not conforming.

what about they look and act like singaporean but still "steal the job" from singaporean?
I believe conformity is one issue, job availability it another.
Why not many cry foul of manufacturing companies closing down business and migrating up north? not malaysia, further north.
China to be exact.

behaviour quality is really important. and hence the difference. foreign talents are the ones who have a way better behaviour and quality. i respect and accept them

yet on the other hand we have foreigners who dun, and they do pose a threat to us. read my first post for a better idea.

quite surprising eh

Singapore is not the only country having this problem.
Indonesia has spend a lot of effort and finally manage to kill Nordin M.Top who is malaysian. To those who dont know he was one of the best bomb maker from terrorist group jemaah islamiyah.

oh yea. and another point for u to think abt, are our baby bonuses really working? or is it being er, negated by the effect of a pro foreign talent policy. note it doesnt mean every foreigner has to be a talent. must remember. more input from outside sources means lesser jobs and housing and stuff. everything gets more expensive as demand rises and its harder to have kids.

You are thinking zero sum game. Government has a policy of not allowing PR to buy direct from HDB, and HDB has not build enough flat to anticipate the demand from PR. Why suddenly PR are rushing to buy flat? Not too hard a question. Check rental prices history for the past 10 years, if that is too far, check for the past 6 years. With the policy allowing to stretch loan period to 30 years of course it is affordable, compared to throwing money down the drain (I am still doing that - renting I mean). When the rent went sky high 3-4 years ago, I have anticipated the resale market will go up soon.

True enough, high rental eventually push the price of resale HDB flat.

The issue is not theirs (foreigners). They behave rationally. The issue is government policy not flexible enough, not changed fast enough.

Man I should be working for PMO formulating policies for them, cos I am much more grass rooted. LOL.

 

[MashiMaro]

well. local as in singaporeans by birth and nationality?

...

have you walk around wee in the morning (with your camera taking pictures or) just to see what's what?

who's gonna clean our road and public toilets? do our hair in the salon, serve our food on board SQ, operate all the machines in the factory, etc.? win those gold medals, .. and run the big corporations here?

i am sorry i can't see what's gonna happened to Singapore and - quoting your words - 'local as in singaporeans by birth and nationality' in the future. i can only wish them all the best.
i had a wild dream once, only pink IC holder stays on the island.. guess what's gonna happened to it in three days?

there is neither bad news or good news for one, there's just news. we are all just human.
as an aside note, often i had problem ordering food or buying stuffs talking to a waiter some of them can't understand my english..

 

[aryanto]

as an aside note, often i had problem ordering food or buying stuffs talking to a waiter some of them can't understand my english..

I have problems ordering food cos my chinese is extremely bad

 

[aryanto]

as an aside note, often i had problem ordering food or buying stuffs talking to a waiter some of them can't understand my english..

I have problems ordering food cos my chinese is extremely bad.
Sometimes it made me feel like a japanese tourist, just point at the nice picture and when the food come I will feel very disappointed.

 

[allenleonhart]

have you walk around wee in the morning (with your camera taking pictures or) just to see what's what?

who's gonna clean our road and public toilets? do our hair in the salon, serve our food on board SQ, operate all the machines in the factory, etc.? win those gold medals, .. and run the big corporations here?

i am sorry i can't see what's gonna happened to Singapore and - quoting your words - 'local as in singaporeans by birth and nationality' in the future. i can only wish them all the best.
i had a wild dream once, only pink IC holder stays on the island.. guess what's gonna happened to it in three days?

there is neither bad news or good news for one, there's just news. we are all just human.
as an aside note, often i had problem ordering food or buying stuffs talking to a waiter some of them can't understand my english..

dear sir, i do not wish to offend u but er. u are out of point.

as u mentioned "
i am sorry i can't see what's gonna happened to Singapore and - quoting your words - 'local as in singaporeans by birth and nationality' in the future. i can only wish them all the best."

my point raised was, it is impossible to not have foreigners. but to wad standards can we accept them?

singapore cannot live wihtout foreigners. i made that VERY clear.

but to wad extent can we minimise the need to rely on foreigners? not tat only pink ic holder lives in singapore idea. tats not possible. but rather. can we afford to have so many foreigners tat we dun lose out on our rights, or tat singapore remains socially stable?

 

[allenleonhart]

what about they look and act like singaporean but still "steal the job" from singaporean?
I believe conformity is one issue, job availability it another.
Why not many cry foul of manufacturing companies closing down business and migrating up north? not malaysia, further north.
China to be exact.


Singapore is not the only country having this problem.
Indonesia has spend a lot of effort and finally manage to kill Nordin M.Top who is malaysian. To those who dont know he was one of the best bomb maker from terrorist group jemaah islamiyah.



You are thinking zero sum game. Government has a policy of not allowing PR to buy direct from HDB, and HDB has not build enough flat to anticipate the demand from PR. Why suddenly PR are rushing to buy flat? Not too hard a question. Check rental prices history for the past 10 years, if that is too far, check for the past 6 years. With the policy allowing to stretch loan period to 30 years of course it is affordable, compared to throwing money down the drain (I am still doing that - renting I mean). When the rent went sky high 3-4 years ago, I have anticipated the resale market will go up soon.

True enough, high rental eventually push the price of resale HDB flat.

The issue is not theirs (foreigners). They behave rationally. The issue is government policy not flexible enough, not changed fast enough.

Man I should be working for PMO formulating policies for them, cos I am much more grass rooted. LOL.

well. one is tat china provides cheap afforable service. but do not that standard wise they arent up there yet.

recall the plastic melamine milk incident. also remember the tibet rebelling, and also si chuan big earthquake. china seems to be not as stable as it used to be. tang shan earthquake china dint rely on foreigners to actually rebuild. they did ti themselves and had pride. now leh? not too sure.

this is the only advantage singapore has. we have to pride outselves in providing a higher lvl service. not just basic manufacturing of mass commercial plastic bottles. but we do high tech stuff. airplane engines, R&D. isnt tat wad we always do? alfa romeo makes air planes in singapore. we build very good ships, we have biopolis and stuff. Mindef is doing a lot of R&D

we have moved on from a 3rd world country to first. and first world countries usually busy themselves with high lvl stuff.

as for the zero sum game, yes i'm thinking of it as 0 sum. perhaps not in the way tat u view it. but rather the space constraints for housing as in that matter. job opportunities are getting lesser, hence the need for more foreign companies to invest in singapore.yet we need to have our own local economy to be less reliant on other countries. look at china. when usa econ break down did they even sneeze? no. yet singapore being overly reliant kenna burn.

hence hte need for our own local economy.
in economy, we can simply divide as 2, foreign economy and local economy.

foreign as we all know relies on other countries. local is self base.

having a stronger local economy is an advantage as we wont be affected by how crisises affect the states.

on the other hand it means we need more citizens. not foreigners.

citizens will ensure tat money flows within the countries. foreigners is earn liao flow outwards.

hence another problem.

where is the mid point i dunno. i not expert dun ask me~!
another think u can tink of now

 

[aeskywan]

hmmmm....... very dangerous topic.............might led to FT bashing.....

 

[allenleonhart]

depending on how u view it. i'm now arguing for the lesser FT (not total annihliation of FT)

lesser FT, yet hopefully we can make these FT into Singaporeans
more singaporeans and bigger local economy. leading to a greater singapore identity+ more jobs and money for everyone.

import when necessary. dun always import like free ~~ see the olympics. singapore competitors all ex FT turn singaporean. i'm ok cause at least theyare now singaporeans. tats the important part.

 

[allenleonhart]

oh yes. NEW FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

FTs in schools. -----> anyone?

 

[Pinoy]

Move on guys.. nothing new here. This FT topic has been beaten to death. Google in this case will be you best friend.

:Later,

 

[allenleonhart]

Move on guys.. nothing new here. This FT topic has been beaten to death. Google in this case will be you best friend.

:Later,

== if u got nothing better to post and discuss dun bother posting pls. google cant give u the answer cause there isnt an official survey/study done in singapore abt it. at most u see is some young kiddo randomly posting and ranting only. what we expect here is real intellectual rigour !!