FIRST DSLR!! Full Frame / APS-C / m43 ??

[silvermoon1407]

To tell you the truth, I didn't do as much homework on the mirrorless camera as I did on full body DSLR. I only checked on their specs without really digging any deeper. However, I did check on their photos, and I totally acknowledge the quality they can deliver. But there are things that bother me.

First of all, the lenses system. I know... mirrorless camera has steadily being developed and has already started to catch up with their bigger cousin, and more and more lenses are coming in. But still, lenses for full body DSLR are still ahead of mirrorless camera, and I'm kind of wondering will the limitation hits me way earlier compared to the lens system for full body DSLR. I know there's mount adapter for mirrorless camera, but it kind of defeats the purpose of choosing the mirrorless camera (for its portability). I've really put thought on this one. For example, Canon 70D which uses EF and EF-S lenses. Mostly I will stick to the EF lenses, live with the crop factor. If I were to get a FF camera, I can still use back my old lenses. I might sound like a cheapo... but this is a great way for me to save money LOL

Secondly, body specs. I think this is where DSLR still have its grip on people's heart. The simple things like AF points and speed, JPEG + RAW output variety, Megapixel (maybe not that important for everyone), movie output, burst frame count, etc... do affect my final decision. The main reason I started this tread is to get as many opinion from all the pros here as I can, before I decide which camera I should buy, that can last for the longest period before another upgrade is needed.

And finally, the purpose of my "first camera". Experiment, exploration, and the excitement! I just wanna do this and that, and everything! And I just can't bare with the fact that mirrorless camera can offer me portability with a little bit of limitation for my exploration in photography, while DSLR can offer me so much more, just by sacrificing the portability!

As for the cameras from other brands, I might just be biased about certain brands, especially Sony. I will take this chance to correct a info I previously state in this tread, as I finally found out my company's DSLR, is in fact the Sony A77. Having the chance to work with the camera for the past 2 years, I encounter several issue with its focusing speed and accuracy of some of the focus point (especially those furthest from the center). I'm not 100% sure it's the camera problem, but I believe in myself more than the camera LOL (Sony supports... please forgive me...).

I know there is still a lot of homework I should do before I make any decision. I shall do more research as you suggested, and to be full open-minded to other brands and cameras.

Thank you for your advice!! Have a great day!!

As you mentioned, with regards to the 3 Es, every other dslr brands as well as mirrorless systems (with the exception of Eos M) has enuff lenses to do almost everything. Just because canon has 100 over different lenses doesn't mean u going to use all of them.

As for future-proofing lens for body upgrade, you are probably thinking too much. If you spend the extra money for FF lens on crop body, u are not fully utilising the money spent. You think it will be a savings in the long term, how about considering it a larger opportunity cost at the start? Smth to think about.

For body specs, all of the points u mentioned are not valid, in the sense that DSLR is not superior in those aspects mentioned, comparing apples to apples. (Of course no mirrorless can rival D4 or 1Dx).

And for the A77, it's one of the fastest camera in terms of focusing and fps, at the point of its release. May I know the lens u are using it with? Af accuracy and speed is largely dependent on lens as well. And given that it's a company camera, it may not be maintained as well as I would expect. Lens alignment may be off, and require calibration. Do consider these factors before you pass your judgement.

Regardless of your choice of camera, it's best to have hands-on experience with them before u buy and not just rely on tech specs.

 

[daredevil123]

I think the latest technology always triumph over older one, but in camera, I think there are more things that influence different people making different choices, for example, familiarity, user experience, and even their own system that has been exist for so long.

Take 5Dm2, it doesn't just stand as a single camera, but also its brand Canon and their system. This, I take seriously into my consideration.

To be frank, mirrorless camera, whether it's APS-S or Micro 4/3, just seems so "point and shoot" for me, compared with body of DSLR. Don't get me wrong, I know it's totally not true and they are in different league, but it's just my feeling on how the mirrorless camera present itself to me. I tried to hold most of the mirrorless cameras, and in my hands, they're just not "tasty" (I know this sounds really really weird).

I really appreciate your opinions, and I'm really grateful to be listened and greeted by you!! Thank you!!

Yes older tech will truimph newer tech. But the D3 has not be bested by any of the APS-C DSLRs yet, and the m43 EM1 is able to top it. That tells you a lot right?

The 5Dm2 is way way behind in terms of performance and operation. If you want to use the Canon system, consider the 5Dm3.

 

[StephenC]

With $3,000 budget, I think you have many options (if you are not eyeing for many lenses).

Why don't you try to grab more chances to try out your company's camera. Cheaper than buying and sell later. I think you have a wonderful job to be able to practise for free!

Try out different focal length, zoom or prime, portraits or landscape, etc. When you are certain of what you like, then go grab the one that you prefer.

Reviews, I think, is too subjective. We all have our own preference. Different shooting styles, different brand preference, etc.

Only you will know what you want.

 

[keithwee]

I think the latest technology always triumph over older one, but in camera, I think there are more things that influence different people making different choices, for example, familiarity, user experience, and even their own system that has been exist for so long. Take 5Dm2, it doesn't just stand as a single camera, but also its brand Canon and their system. This, I take seriously into my consideration. To be frank, mirrorless camera, whether it's APS-S or Micro 4/3, just seems so "point and shoot" for me, compared with body of DSLR. Don't get me wrong, I know it's totally not true and they are in different league, but it's just my feeling on how the mirrorless camera present itself to me. I tried to hold most of the mirrorless cameras, and in my hands, they're just not "tasty" (I know this sounds really really weird). I really appreciate your opinions, and I'm really grateful to be listened and greeted by you!! Thank you!!

I feel ... That I should have paid more attention to your thread title : APS-C or FF.

To say that a Mirrorless camera feels P n S as compared to the body of a DSLR is really sad on so many levels la Bro.

A quick check will tell u only the top most tier models can top the EM-1 in terms of its body's durability amongst among things. And there are many other high performing models such as the XPro , XE from Fuji etc. Do take the time to read and look around more.

Given how the thread has unfolded , my feel is that u should just invest in a FF and then move into the lenses building given that u have shared that u do not want to be caught with a lesser camera if u decide to turn pro one day.

 

[ahblack]

As you mentioned, with regards to the 3 Es, every other dslr brands as well as mirrorless systems (with the exception of Eos M) has enuff lenses to do almost everything. Just because canon has 100 over different lenses doesn't mean u going to use all of them.

As for future-proofing lens for body upgrade, you are probably thinking too much. If you spend the extra money for FF lens on crop body, u are not fully utilising the money spent. You think it will be a savings in the long term, how about considering it a larger opportunity cost at the start? Smth to think about.

For body specs, all of the points u mentioned are not valid, in the sense that DSLR is not superior in those aspects mentioned, comparing apples to apples. (Of course no mirrorless can rival D4 or 1Dx).

And for the A77, it's one of the fastest camera in terms of focusing and fps, at the point of its release. May I know the lens u are using it with? Af accuracy and speed is largely dependent on lens as well. And given that it's a company camera, it may not be maintained as well as I would expect. Lens alignment may be off, and require calibration. Do consider these factors before you pass your judgement.

Regardless of your choice of camera, it's best to have hands-on experience with them before u buy and not just rely on tech specs.

Hmm... I guess I've over-think and over-looked a lot of things when I was doing my own research. Thank you for being so informative, and I'm surely to recheck my finding over several things. :thumbsup:

The part where you mention about the body upgrade. I'm sure I didn't think about that part where you said "spending extra money for FF lens on crop body". I mean, doesn't anyone did the way I mentioned? In my own way of thinking, that if I were to do that, wouldn't it means I only have to spend once for the lenses and they will be reuse when I upgrade to a FF body? After your explanation, I think I'm really messed up this part. I think I need a bit more guidance on this part...

For example, Canon 70D can use both EF lens and EF-S lens. If I were to fully utilize the money I spend on lens, I should have go for the EF-S lens with is specially designed for crop body right? But... If I choose to spend on the EF lens and use it on crop body, is there any drawback on this choice? I have yet to look into the price range for EF and EF-S lenses. Is the price difference big? If compared on the same focus length and aperture range.

As for the body spec, I guess I did a pretty shallow research on this one. I shall do a much extensive research on this one.

For the A77, I read a lot of reviews regarding it is one of the fastest camera in terms of focusing and fps. To answer your question, I'm using the kit lens (Sony DT 16-50mm F2.8 SSM). I think when I mentioned about the focusing speed, I might be a little bit unclear on this one. It just takes a few attempt just to get the focus I want on certain focusing point, especially 4 corners of all focus points. Sometimes, it just came out focusing at the background. I got frustrated a few times, and end up using the center point to focus then move to compose my shot, but this method often won't work very well, especially when I use large aperture. I guess I never really thought about it being maintenance issue.

I will definitely rent and test the cameras before I buy it, and I'm planning to do it some time after CNY.

Sir/Madam, you sure knocked some senses into my head. I will be more careful and research well in the future!

A really big thank to you!!!

 

[ahblack]

Yes older tech will truimph newer tech. But the D3 has not be bested by any of the APS-C DSLRs yet, and the m43 EM1 is able to top it. That tells you a lot right?

The 5Dm2 is way way behind in terms of performance and operation. If you want to use the Canon system, consider the 5Dm3.

Hahaha... I think I went too over-board with my own words...

As for the 5Dm3, I don't think I have the budget for it...

I will take more time to see and learn before I make any big decision. Thank you!!!

 

[ahblack]

With $3,000 budget, I think you have many options (if you are not eyeing for many lenses).

Why don't you try to grab more chances to try out your company's camera. Cheaper than buying and sell later. I think you have a wonderful job to be able to practise for free!

Try out different focal length, zoom or prime, portraits or landscape, etc. When you are certain of what you like, then go grab the one that you prefer.

Reviews, I think, is too subjective. We all have our own preference. Different shooting styles, different brand preference, etc.

Only you will know what you want.

With the 3K budget, I think I will most likely going to another 1 or 2 extra lenses other than the kit lens.

I wish I could... The problem with company's camera, is the "borrow" part... I tried to ask permission to borrow the camera for a weekend, with the excuse of trying to get more familiar with the camera from my supervisor, but she will just "politely" reject me, saying that it's not good if other people find out that we "abuse" our privilege hahaha...

Another thing is lens. WE ONLY HAVE 1 KIT LENS!!! OMG!!! I almost killed myself out of frustration during the Family Day last year, because I only have 1 lens and I missed out a lot of opportunities to get a good shot!!!

I too think reviews are very subjective. That's why I've started this tread to gather more views.

I still dont know what I want LOL... I think with all the helpful pros around here, I will find out soon.

Thank you for your time!!

 

[ahblack]

I feel ... That I should have paid more attention to your thread title : APS-C or FF.

To say that a Mirrorless camera feels P n S as compared to the body of a DSLR is really sad on so many levels la Bro.

A quick check will tell u only the top most tier models can top the EM-1 in terms of its body's durability amongst among things. And there are many other high performing models such as the XPro , XE from Fuji etc. Do take the time to read and look around more.

Given how the thread has unfolded , my feel is that u should just invest in a FF and then move into the lenses building given that u have shared that u do not want to be caught with a lesser camera if u decide to turn pro one day.

Hahaha... it's just my own feeling bro, not to make anyone here sad and angry. I was trying to say, mirrorless camera is so compact (the size and weight), that it's so close to a PnS. While a DSLR is big, makes me feel sturdy with its weight.

I shall look into it, as a lot of pros have stated here that they are worth a try!

Hmm... I kind of agree on your suggestion for me to just go with a FF body and then move into the lenses building. A FF body is quite affordable nowadays, I will definitely consider it.

Thank you bro!! I really appreciate your advice!!

 

[daredevil123]

With the 3K budget, I think I will most likely going to another 1 or 2 extra lenses other than the kit lens.

I wish I could... The problem with company's camera, is the "borrow" part... I tried to ask permission to borrow the camera for a weekend, with the excuse of trying to get more familiar with the camera from my supervisor, but she will just "politely" reject me, saying that it's not good if other people find out that we "abuse" our privilege hahaha...

Another thing is lens. WE ONLY HAVE 1 KIT LENS!!! OMG!!! I almost killed myself out of frustration during the Family Day last year, because I only have 1 lens and I missed out a lot of opportunities to get a good shot!!!

I too think reviews are very subjective. That's why I've started this tread to gather more views.

I still dont know what I want LOL... I think with all the helpful pros around here, I will find out soon.

Thank you for your time!!

3K budget is very small actually. Only enough to get you an mid level APS-C body and 3-4 (crop aka EF-S) decent lenses.

If you are so particular about quality. It is time to up your budget and go for the best. Around 10k will get you a decent FF system with great lenses.

 

[ahblack]

3K budget is very small actually. Only enough to get you an mid level APS-C body and 3-4 (crop aka EF-S) decent lenses.

If you are so particular about quality. It is time to up your budget and go for the best. Around 10k will get you a decent FF system with great lenses.

Well... I'm aware that 3k is not really a big budget. If I finally decided to go for a crop body, there's definitely more lenses for me to play with. On the other hand, a Canon 6D is gonna eat up most of my 3k, but I think I will slight raise my budget to get at least 1 lens to play with it. I'm not really in a hurry to get a camera, so maybe while I'm still deciding, I can save up a bit more money to up my budget. We shall see!!!

Thank you once again!!

 

[SkyStrike]

Another thing is lens. WE ONLY HAVE 1 KIT LENS!!! OMG!!! I almost killed myself out of frustration during the Family Day last year, because I only have 1 lens and I missed out a lot of opportunities to get a good shot!!!

Many of us started off with 1 kit lens, or may be 2 (18-55 and/or 55-250 | 50mm f1.8). But having only 1 kit lens don't really limit one's creativity. Thou I do not know what kind of shots you were after, but I can only say, know your equipment well and know what are the limitations be it technical (e.g. focal length, aperture, settings, sensor's limit). Once you know the limitations, you will know what you can shoot and not be frustrated by those you can't.

*Personally, I feel that you may be over thinking alot of things on the Camera issue. Many of us here have chipped in valuable comments on different systems. And I can confidently say that all these newer models of mirrorless, aps-c, ff will serve you well regardless of which one you choose. If in doubt, you can always head to online galleries like flickr and see what those cameras are capable of.

If viewing those galleries makes your head spin already, I think just rent the camera for a couple of days and see if you like it. That's probably the easiest way to know.

 

[silvermoon1407]

Hmm... I guess I've over-think and over-looked a lot of things when I was doing my own research. Thank you for being so informative, and I'm surely to recheck my finding over several things. :thumbsup:

The part where you mention about the body upgrade. I'm sure I didn't think about that part where you said "spending extra money for FF lens on crop body". I mean, doesn't anyone did the way I mentioned? In my own way of thinking, that if I were to do that, wouldn't it means I only have to spend once for the lenses and they will be reuse when I upgrade to a FF body? After your explanation, I think I'm really messed up this part. I think I need a bit more guidance on this part...

For example, Canon 70D can use both EF lens and EF-S lens. If I were to fully utilize the money I spend on lens, I should have go for the EF-S lens with is specially designed for crop body right? But... If I choose to spend on the EF lens and use it on crop body, is there any drawback on this choice? I have yet to look into the price range for EF and EF-S lenses. Is the price difference big? If compared on the same focus length and aperture range.

As for the body spec, I guess I did a pretty shallow research on this one. I shall do a much extensive research on this one.

For the A77, I read a lot of reviews regarding it is one of the fastest camera in terms of focusing and fps. To answer your question, I'm using the kit lens (Sony DT 16-50mm F2.8 SSM). I think when I mentioned about the focusing speed, I might be a little bit unclear on this one. It just takes a few attempt just to get the focus I want on certain focusing point, especially 4 corners of all focus points. Sometimes, it just came out focusing at the background. I got frustrated a few times, and end up using the center point to focus then move to compose my shot, but this method often won't work very well, especially when I use large aperture. I guess I never really thought about it being maintenance issue.

I will definitely rent and test the cameras before I buy it, and I'm planning to do it some time after CNY.

Sir/Madam, you sure knocked some senses into my head. I will be more careful and research well in the future!

A really big thank to you!!!

EF-S lenses are definitely cheaper than EF lenses for the most part. There's always two schools of thought regarding the topic of using FF lens on crop body. One is like u said, save money and no need to get new lens when upgrade FF. 2nd is you save money now by getting crop lens for crop camera. If u so wish to upgrade, just sell ur crop kit. You get to use a lighter setup. Also, e.g. 24-70 on crop is like 36-105mm, not wide enuff nor telephoto enuff.

For ur focusing issue with a77, I believe you will get the same results even if u use gears from canon or nikon. Multi AF will focus on what the camera thinks has the best contrast in the scene. Some cameras may be "smarter" to detect the right subjects, but in general they perform the same. If ur background is contrasty, sucks to be you. Centre AF and recompose is very popular among photographers. Shallow d.o.f. is an excuse in not getting sharp recomposed shots after locking AF. And it's only f2.8.

FYI most Sony systems uses a larger area of the sensor to perform multi AF, as compared to a much narrower centre region of low-mid tier DSLR focusing system. If you so want to focus on something on the peripheral of your frame, not even high end DSLRs can help you if you don't understand the camera.

 

[daredevil123]

EF-S lenses are definitely cheaper than EF lenses for the most part. There's always two schools of thought regarding the topic of using FF lens on crop body. One is like u said, save money and no need to get new lens when upgrade FF. 2nd is you save money now by getting crop lens for crop camera. If u so wish to upgrade, just sell ur crop kit. You get to use a lighter setup. Also, e.g. 24-70 on crop is like 36-105mm, not wide enuff nor telephoto enuff.

For ur focusing issue with a77, I believe you will get the same results even if u use gears from canon or nikon. Multi AF will focus on what the camera thinks has the best contrast in the scene. Some cameras may be "smarter" to detect the right subjects, but in general they perform the same. If ur background is contrasty, sucks to be you. Centre AF and recompose is very popular among photographers. Shallow d.o.f. is an excuse in not getting sharp recomposed shots after locking AF. And it's only f2.8.

FYI most Sony systems uses a larger area of the sensor to perform multi AF, as compared to a much narrower centre region of low-mid tier DSLR focusing system. If you so want to focus on something on the peripheral of your frame, not even high end DSLRs can help you if you don't understand the camera.

Best way to save money is one time pain, buy the best out there. No more gear lust after that. My wife told me recently, "early early told you to get the best one. Buy buy sell sell waste time waste money... "

 

[NormanSelvaraju]

This is really an exciting thread. I'm reading with great interest and anticipating your final choice.

I started photography just about a year ago. Began with at apsc canon 650 and after much thought and consideration moved. Up to a 6d. Lens wise I've been holding in the the excellent workhorse lens the Tamron 24-70 VC. Bang for buck.

If I had had the power of hindsight, I would have slipped the 650 and moved straight to the 6d. Better IQ, better low light performance.

I must say DD (and his wife) are right. Buy the best from the start. The 650 is sitting in my dry cab. Haven't touched it for a long while. Wasted 1k plus.

When researching to purchase the 6d, I skipped the 1dx cos it was way beyond my budget. I skipped the 5dm3 cos I was looking for better low light capability and I didn't require such a fancy autofocus system. (Good to have. But not necessary for me)

Bottom line? Between an apsc and a full frame, get a full frame. It's so fun cranking ISO up to 6400 and shooting without worries.

 

[StephenC]

I would start with a FF camera and the kit lens, and then save up to get better prime lens later.

I think it should be just around $3K+?

 

[ahblack]

Many of us started off with 1 kit lens, or may be 2 (18-55 and/or 55-250 | 50mm f1.8). But having only 1 kit lens don't really limit one's creativity. Thou I do not know what kind of shots you were after, but I can only say, know your equipment well and know what are the limitations be it technical (e.g. focal length, aperture, settings, sensor's limit). Once you know the limitations, you will know what you can shoot and not be frustrated by those you can't.

*Personally, I feel that you may be over thinking alot of things on the Camera issue. Many of us here have chipped in valuable comments on different systems. And I can confidently say that all these newer models of mirrorless, aps-c, ff will serve you well regardless of which one you choose. If in doubt, you can always head to online galleries like flickr and see what those cameras are capable of.

If viewing those galleries makes your head spin already, I think just rent the camera for a couple of days and see if you like it. That's probably the easiest way to know.

I understand what you are saying here. I still have a lot to learn for fully utilize the potential of 1 camera. I shall take your words on that, and keep on practicing my skill instead of just wining about the limitation.

Thank you for your time!!

 

[ahblack]

EF-S lenses are definitely cheaper than EF lenses for the most part. There's always two schools of thought regarding the topic of using FF lens on crop body. One is like u said, save money and no need to get new lens when upgrade FF. 2nd is you save money now by getting crop lens for crop camera. If u so wish to upgrade, just sell ur crop kit. You get to use a lighter setup. Also, e.g. 24-70 on crop is like 36-105mm, not wide enuff nor telephoto enuff.

For ur focusing issue with a77, I believe you will get the same results even if u use gears from canon or nikon. Multi AF will focus on what the camera thinks has the best contrast in the scene. Some cameras may be "smarter" to detect the right subjects, but in general they perform the same. If ur background is contrasty, sucks to be you. Centre AF and recompose is very popular among photographers. Shallow d.o.f. is an excuse in not getting sharp recomposed shots after locking AF. And it's only f2.8.

FYI most Sony systems uses a larger area of the sensor to perform multi AF, as compared to a much narrower centre region of low-mid tier DSLR focusing system. If you so want to focus on something on the peripheral of your frame, not even high end DSLRs can help you if you don't understand the camera.

I see... This definitely gave me some insight... One of my concerning is the "not wide enuff nor telephoto enuff" problem. But I've come to terms that one shall only limited by his own imagination, not by his tools. I will upgrade myself more than upgrading my gears, hahaha... Thank you for that.

 

[ahblack]

Best way to save money is one time pain, buy the best out there. No more gear lust after that. My wife told me recently, "early early told you to get the best one. Buy buy sell sell waste time waste money... "

My wife and your wife shared the same mind!! There's actually a little bit funny story...

I told me wife, than I will finally buy a new camera, a much proper one for "work" LOL... Then she asked me, how much. I was quite worried, as I told her about the 3k budget, she might... you know... go crazy? hahaha... But out of expectation, she said, "Why dont you buy a better one? Like those BIG BIG camera pro use to shoot pre-wedding and wedding dinner? At least you don't need to keep upgrade and end up buy more and more."

Like you said, one time pain is still a better way to save money. I guess i won't be posting my final decision any time soon here ;p NEED MORE FARMING!!!

Thank you for sharing your "experience" hahaha!!! Have a great day!!!

 

[ahblack]

This is really an exciting thread. I'm reading with great interest and anticipating your final choice.

I started photography just about a year ago. Began with at apsc canon 650 and after much thought and consideration moved. Up to a 6d. Lens wise I've been holding in the the excellent workhorse lens the Tamron 24-70 VC. Bang for buck.

If I had had the power of hindsight, I would have slipped the 650 and moved straight to the 6d. Better IQ, better low light performance.

I must say DD (and his wife) are right. Buy the best from the start. The 650 is sitting in my dry cab. Haven't touched it for a long while. Wasted 1k plus.

When researching to purchase the 6d, I skipped the 1dx cos it was way beyond my budget. I skipped the 5dm3 cos I was looking for better low light capability and I didn't require such a fancy autofocus system. (Good to have. But not necessary for me)

Bottom line? Between an apsc and a full frame, get a full frame. It's so fun cranking ISO up to 6400 and shooting without worries.

Hahaha... I know!! This is my first tread in the forum, and the responds I got is just crazy!! 50+ posts already!!

Well I guess I'm luckier than you, as I have so many helpful pros here to advise me, and keep me from making stupid mistake!! No offense though...

Be sure that I will let you all know the final choice, and to not let you all down, I will get my facts right, do the research I'm supposed to do, then only I will make the final decision.

Thank you for your time, I hope you enjoy staying here!!

 

[ahblack]

I would start with a FF camera and the kit lens, and then save up to get better prime lens later.

I think it should be just around $3K+?

Well currently there are not a lot of choices for me if I were to go for a FF body. Sony A99, Canon 6D, Nikon D610, already cost most of the 3k. With lens, I can say it's gonna be 3k+, maybe around 3.5k. If I can hold my buying impulse through this year, I might get something better, or maybe a new release camera, who knows what will those big companies gonna come up.

Thank you for your advice!!