Erwin Putts... more insights into sensor sizes


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Dec 4, 2004
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#1
Erwin Putts just updated his webpage with another article on sensor sizes....

Some food for thought. At the end of the day we all need to make compromises and balance out what we really want or need......:think:

http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c023.html
 

#2
the "famous" brands can be a lot better if they can design true to full-frame transfer as what 4/3 envisions. but that comes with total overhaul for their design of mounts ++ and super pricey lens prices.

so..... we are still stuck with small sensor har? :bsmilie: :bsmilie:

so far oly is doing slightly better with iso noise, WB & AF? control. hope more innovations to come! :sweatsm:
 

Hacker

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#3
The article is old. The latest from the site states that Size Does Matter.
 

ykkok

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Feb 24, 2004
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#5
I suppose it's new, with "PMA 2006" in there.

But does the overall size and weight of our system matter to us? I suppose yes, because I am seeing most of my friends start to carry lesser and lesser stuff, getting longer and longer wide zooms. Well this does not applies to everyone, but quite a number of users have the same concern.
 

Hacker

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#6
chainsmoker said:
If onli i can have that much stuff to carry around, i wont:complain:
You sure? 10kg on in your bag and that huge tripod......
 

yanyewkay

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#7
i guess size does matter.. before diffraction sets in.
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=173604&highlight=diffraction
diffraction can actually make your fine details blur instead of sharper as you stop down your aperature. It depends on the sensor size and pixel count. In short, it depends on the pixel size.

The more you pack into a smaller sensor, the smaller the pixel size.

Another thing about pixel size is that as it gets smaller, noise gets higher. You'll need a more powerful in camera algorithm so seperate noise from signal. however, there are always exception to technology, a P&S camera can produce usable ISO1600 relatively noiseless pictures as well. Enter SuperCCD.

My opinion with the 4/3 system is that, being restricted in (sensor) size, they should not be sticking to the aging (but cheap and proven) "graph-paper" grid pattern. Sony is breaking away with their to-be-launched 'ClearVid' sensors, which is basically what the first generation of SuperCCD did except on CMOS.

If Olympus is to survive the DSLR battle, I would say switching over to CMOS or get a radical new sensor re-design. The grid just can't hold much longer.

Knowing how ppl are in CS, before anyone starts getting defensive about the 4/3 system. I'm not trolling in here to bring the 4/3 down. Just sharing some info.
*If anyone is offended with the above information, PM me and i'll take it down.
 

Hacker

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#8
yanyewkay said:
Knowing how ppl are in CS, before anyone starts getting defensive about the 4/3 system. I'm not trolling in here to bring the 4/3 down. Just sharing some info.
*If anyone is offended with the above information, PM me and i'll take it down.
Thanks for the info. This is one point which is always at the back of my mind. Open forum, open debate. I'm currently even thinking of going to the dark side or MF. Have looked at the Mamiya ZD yesterday. A bit too heavy though.
 

#9
yanyewkay said:
Sony is breaking away with their to-be-launched 'ClearVid' sensors, which is basically what the first generation of SuperCCD did except on CMOS.
sony development in the new sensor looks interesting. but still prefers fuji superccd unless 6G+1R+1B = great colours and tonality then maybe i might change my mind.

most of 4/3 users are still waiting for the fovean news/rumours in future 4/3 pro body.
 

ykkok

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#10
That makes me wonder, why PnS can cramp so many pixels on a 1/1.8" sensor which is noticeably smaller than the 4/3? We see 6, 7 or even 8 MP on such a small device, and we still see people buying them? How come?
 

Aug 7, 2005
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GagalandCloud9
#11
Hacker said:
Thanks for the info. This is one point which is always at the back of my mind. Open forum, open debate. I'm currently even thinking of going to the dark side or MF. Have looked at the Mamiya ZD yesterday. A bit too heavy though.
Nikon mount = Nikon + Fuji + Kodak

Hacker said:
You sure? 10kg on in your bag and that huge tripod......
:bsmilie: u forgot to mention the ladder as well, a trolley bag should come useful.
 

Aug 7, 2005
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GagalandCloud9
#12
From everybody here, i learnt ~
Size of sensor + size of photosite + no. of photosites + layers of photosites = :thumbsup:
 

wind30

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#13
yanyewkay said:
If Olympus is to survive the DSLR battle, I would say switching over to CMOS or get a radical new sensor re-design. The grid just can't hold much longer.

Knowing how ppl are in CS, before anyone starts getting defensive about the 4/3 system. I'm not trolling in here to bring the 4/3 down. Just sharing some info.
*If anyone is offended with the above information, PM me and i'll take it down.
The olympus guys are less defensive than other camps... I posted s3pro vs E1 and s3pro vs D200 threads and got vastly different responses :)

Actually looking at the E330, I am quite surprised that the noise performance is actually visibly improved from the few high ISO samples I have seen. Just need to wait for official reviews :)

Although I switched to fuji I still think in the long run, 4/3 is a very good sensor size. Now I am struggling with the HUGE raw files of s3pro and heavy nikon lens. Personally I think I only need around 10meg of resolution for my A3 prints. Once Olympus gets a good sensor with 10meg resolution with good noise performance, the advantages of being light, live view, dust busters, great lens will appeal to people like me.
 

Hacker

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#15
chainsmoker said:
Nikon mount = Nikon + Fuji + Kodak


:bsmilie: u forgot to mention the ladder as well, a trolley bag should come useful.
Actually, not dark side. Thinking of adding Canon as a second body. Can't part with the Oly lenses.
 

wind30

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#16
NMSS_2 said:
Olympus 8mp bodies can print A3 mah (210++ DPI). Y need 10mp for that? :think:
I was using the E1, 5meg so I wanted to upgrade. It is not just the MP, you must have the pixels + low noise + high DR. The E500 essentially has the same technology as the E1, it just traded off dynamic range and noise with higher resolution. Doesn't seem like much of an upgrade if I sold my E1 and bought the E500
 

nightpiper

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#17
yanyewkay said:
My opinion with the 4/3 system is that, being restricted in (sensor) size, they should not be sticking to the aging (but cheap and proven) "graph-paper" grid pattern. Sony is breaking away with their to-be-launched 'ClearVid' sensors, which is basically what the first generation of SuperCCD did except on CMOS.
is the diamond shape arrangement really better? can pack more pixels? all along i had the impression the grid method has the best packing arrangement. what i understand is that the hexagon or diamond shape has the advantage of diagonal lines only (not jagged step like). i m no expert so feel feel to fill me in with details. :D i m also wondering, if the new E330 uses the NMOS (aka LiveMos for Oly), why not use PMOS or VMOS? althou i dun know the exact application & design of such technology, but i can imagine the PMOS will use current for signal processing (less prone to noise?) instead of voltage. the VMOS has inherently less noise since they r mainly deployed in the first stage ultra low noise amplifier in the RF receiver end. this maybe a new breakthru in sensor design besides finding different base material. again, i dun know much so pls feel free to furnish details. thx. :)

NMSS_2 said:
most of 4/3 users are still waiting for the fovean news/rumours in future 4/3 pro body.
where did u get this rumours? i heard Foveon is exp to license & their design has some problems not overcome yet, so i dun think the next gen of Oly DSLRs will utilise it. if Oly really uses the Foveon sensor, how will they market it? 6MP per layer so the new E-xx will be 18MP!! i dun see myself buying into such claims....:sweat:

wind30 said:
Personally I think I only need around 10meg of resolution for my A3 prints. Once Olympus gets a good sensor with 10meg resolution with good noise performance, the advantages of being light, live view, dust busters, great lens will appeal to people like me.
in case u r not aware, my E1 5MP can print A1 size & still looked smooth & good. so how come the 10MP sensor can only go up to A3? i was actually very taken aback by this FFT CCD from Kodak, blow up big prints & still see smooth colour gradation. :thumbsup: (i sent it to photolabs for printing not home ink printers)

after using Oly E sys for awhile now, i kind of like the dust buster very very much!! it really works & i m not taking it for granted.

Hacker said:
Actually, not dark side. Thinking of adding Canon as a second body. Can't part with the Oly lenses.
lucky thing u got the Leicas. still can mount them on the Canon for better quality. if u r selling those Oly lenses... i'll be waiting... :devil:
 

burger

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#18
nightpiper said:
lucky thing u got the Leicas. still can mount them on the Canon for better quality. if u r selling those Oly lenses... i'll be waiting... :devil:
Hacker said:
Can't part with the Oly lenses.
little chance of that :) :bsmilie: :bsmilie:
 

wind30

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#19
nightpiper said:
is the diamond shape arrangement really better? can pack more pixels? all along i had the impression the grid method has the best packing arrangement. what i understand is that the hexagon or diamond shape has the advantage of diagonal lines only (not jagged step like). i m no expert so feel feel to fill me in with details. :D

in case u r not aware, my E1 5MP can print A1 size & still looked smooth & good. so how come the 10MP sensor can only go up to A3? i was actually very taken aback by this FFT CCD from Kodak, blow up big prints & still see smooth colour gradation. :thumbsup: (i sent it to photolabs for printing not home ink printers)
It is a fact that the if you have a square grid of sensors, you can resolve the most along the diagonals. Your picture is represented by pixels and the highest pixel density is along the vertical and horizontal axis. Thus is does make sense to arrange the sensors in fuji's super CCD way so that the most information is captured along the vertical and horizontal axis. The fuji's arrangement does have measureable resolution improvement along the vertical and horizontal axis.

I print at home on my A3 printer. How large a size you can print depends on your interpolation software too. For my A3 print, my E1 pics are not really sharp if you view up close. A1 prints will look smooth but Iam sure that the details are not there on closer inspection. I did compare my E1 and s3pro side by side and there is a significant resolution advantage.
 

plastic

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#20
I thought physics lessons ended in school... now I am getting a headache going through that again... :bsmilie:

Good read and discussion though...
 

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