Curious on attitude of some Wedding Photographers.


mariodoe

New Member
Jan 21, 2010
73
0
0
#1
Hi pple,

i'm just a hobbist and amature photographer.

recently i volunteered myself to tag along with my fren's wedding to help him take pictures of his actual day but he turned down my help as his hired photographer and videographer advised him not to have any additional photographer to be in his actual day.

the reason cited by his hired photographer and videographer claimed that they want to avoid filming and capturing the additional photographer in their photography n videography to prevent "spoiling" their work.

i'm really puzzled of their claim and my fren actual buy their idea. :dunno: since is his big day and i got to respect his decision.

so what's wrong to film another photographer inside their work? there are other relatives or frens will be taking photos or filming as well during the actual day customary. so they are ok to be phototaken n filmed in their work? y can't the additional photographer be captured as well then?

i've shoot at another fren's wedding b4 and i noe my rights. i alwaz stand behind the main photographer and videographer to prevent blocking their angle. and at the same time i'm shooting at my own perspective. so i really dun understand y they wan to prevent others from shooting together with them?

are these hired photographers afraid that their work can't match the other "free" photographers in e same wedding event and have their reputation tarnished?

anyone has faced e same situation as me?
 

#2
Actually, for weddings it could be more difficult to shoot when there is a second shooter around if the place is not spacious.
Imagine including the videographers, there are 4-5 shooters, it causes us to have less space to shift around. For a few times, i knocked onto my assistant while i moved back because he/she stood too close to me and to prevent any other shooters to be in our picture frame, the number of angles and perspectives became more limited.

The more professional a photographer is, he/she may tend to be more anal with every single detail in a photograph. Sometimes, it does annoy me when my assistant failed to move out of my frame yet i only have that moment to capture.
Each moment we have less than a second to capture. Being paid, we are expected to deliver at least 500 commercial quality photographs without missing any moment. So with all the collisions and less space, it makes our job harder.

However, when i attend my friend's weddings as a guest i also i do not request to tag along in photography. Firstly, i would play my role as a guest and cam whore with my friends. Example, i declined to shoot one of my pri sch classmate wedding for i have too many commitments, so she had to hire someone else. On her wedding day, i still brought my dslr along but just played around with my old classmates. As a friend, though i know i could do a better job than the hired, i still need to respect the main photographer, believing he/she will do a good job instead of rushing around trying to make pictures.

Being a friend, we would want to have our friends to have more photographs but we would not want to be a hinderance to the main-photographer who is hired. It would not be nice to reduce the quality of the "hired" due to the lack of space to move.

i still do regularly see friends of the brides and groom with a dslr around, most of the time i would just ignore them and focus on my job for i do not have the extra time and energy to care about their positioning. For i moved around so much that, i would feel any 2nd shooter would find it difficult to shoot with me =X
 

blurry80

New Member
Jul 23, 2007
758
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37
Toa Payoh
www.flickr.com
#3
Actually, for weddings it could be more difficult to shoot when there is a second shooter around if the place is not spacious.
Imagine including the videographers, there are 4-5 shooters, it causes us to have less space to shift around. For a few times, i knocked onto my assistant while i moved back because he/she stood too close to me and to prevent any other shooters to be in our picture frame, the number of angles and perspectives became more limited.

The more professional a photographer is, he/she may tend to be more anal with every single detail in a photograph. Sometimes, it does annoy me when my assistant failed to move out of my frame yet i only have that moment to capture.
Each moment we have less than a second to capture. Being paid, we are expected to deliver at least 500 commercial quality photographs without missing any moment. So with all the collisions and less space, it makes our job harder.

However, when i attend my friend's weddings as a guest i also i do not request to tag along in photography. Firstly, i would play my role as a guest and cam whore with my friends. Example, i declined to shoot one of my pri sch classmate wedding for i have too many commitments, so she had to hire someone else. On her wedding day, i still brought my dslr along but just played around with my old classmates. As a friend, though i know i could do a better job than the hired, i still need to respect the main photographer, believing he/she will do a good job instead of rushing around trying to make pictures.

Being a friend, we would want to have our friends to have more photographs but we would not want to be a hinderance to the main-photographer who is hired. It would not be nice to reduce the quality of the "hired" due to the lack of space to move.

i still do regularly see friends of the brides and groom with a dslr around, most of the time i would just ignore them and focus on my job for i do not have the extra time and energy to care about their positioning. For i moved around so much that, i would feel any 2nd shooter would find it difficult to shoot with me =X
Fully agree. videographer must mount tripod, sound man must boom the mic and maybe got lighting man. somemore got photographer. which need to keep changing angle of shot. If done in small area its going to be really challenging.
 

#4
oh well, thats why i dislike the portion of groom meeting the bride after the gate crash the most...

imagine 3-5 shooters, with relatives and friends cramped into a room of a hdb flat... it is crazily life difficult when as the main photographer we need to make shots of multiple perspective....

once in a blue moon, i am annoyed when my photographs have only 3 people.... groom, bride, 2nd shooter (who is uncrop-able)... just one extra person spoil everything...
 

jonathann

New Member
Jul 12, 2009
422
0
0
Tampines
#5
Hi pple,

i'm just a hobbist and amature photographer.

recently i volunteered myself to tag along with my fren's wedding to help him take pictures of his actual day but he turned down my help as his hired photographer and videographer advised him not to have any additional photographer to be in his actual day.

the reason cited by his hired photographer and videographer claimed that they want to avoid filming and capturing the additional photographer in their photography n videography to prevent "spoiling" their work.

i'm really puzzled of their claim and my fren actual buy their idea. :dunno: since is his big day and i got to respect his decision.

so what's wrong to film another photographer inside their work? there are other relatives or frens will be taking photos or filming as well during the actual day customary. so they are ok to be phototaken n filmed in their work? y can't the additional photographer be captured as well then?

i've shoot at another fren's wedding b4 and i noe my rights. i alwaz stand behind the main photographer and videographer to prevent blocking their angle. and at the same time i'm shooting at my own perspective. so i really dun understand y they wan to prevent others from shooting together with them?

are these hired photographers afraid that their work can't match the other "free" photographers in e same wedding event and have their reputation tarnished?

anyone has faced e same situation as me?
dun think too much. when they say no then it means they dun want any hindrance from another photographer.
 

catchlights

Moderator
Staff member
Sep 27, 2004
21,903
46
48
Punggol, Singapore
www.foto-u.com
#6
Hi pple,

i'm just a hobbist and amature photographer.

recently i volunteered myself to tag along with my fren's wedding to help him take pictures of his actual day but he turned down my help as his hired photographer and videographer advised him not to have any additional photographer to be in his actual day.

the reason cited by his hired photographer and videographer claimed that they want to avoid filming and capturing the additional photographer in their photography n videography to prevent "spoiling" their work.

i'm really puzzled of their claim and my fren actual buy their idea. :dunno: since is his big day and i got to respect his decision.

so what's wrong to film another photographer inside their work? there are other relatives or frens will be taking photos or filming as well during the actual day customary. so they are ok to be phototaken n filmed in their work? y can't the additional photographer be captured as well then?

i've shoot at another fren's wedding b4 and i noe my rights. i alwaz stand behind the main photographer and videographer to prevent blocking their angle. and at the same time i'm shooting at my own perspective. so i really dun understand y they wan to prevent others from shooting together with them?

are these hired photographers afraid that their work can't match the other "free" photographers in e same wedding event and have their reputation tarnished?

anyone has faced e same situation as me?
have you ever heard the idiom of "too many cooks spoil the soup"?

those photographer and videographer team up together to shoot wedding usually are very experience and have 默契, add anymore people to shoot together will only hider the process, slow everything down, in the end, the wedding couple are the bigger loser.

anyway, pros will not afraid of anyone steal their shots, just don't like get disturb when they are doing their work. If you think your shots can match up with the pros, why don't you suggest to your friend to let you shoot their wedding.

and I know how to deal with people like you when I shoot weddings, like I say before, I won't lose anything if these jokers keep blocking my views, the wedding couple is the bigger loser in the end, and they will remember how their friend "helped" in their wedding whenever they see the photos.
 

sjackal

Senior Member
Jul 9, 2008
4,490
10
38
#8
Hi pple,

i'm just a hobbist and amature photographer.

recently i volunteered myself to tag along with my fren's wedding to help him take pictures of his actual day but he turned down my help as his hired photographer and videographer advised him not to have any additional photographer to be in his actual day.

the reason cited by his hired photographer and videographer claimed that they want to avoid filming and capturing the additional photographer in their photography n videography to prevent "spoiling" their work.

i'm really puzzled of their claim and my fren actual buy their idea. :dunno: since is his big day and i got to respect his decision.

so what's wrong to film another photographer inside their work? there are other relatives or frens will be taking photos or filming as well during the actual day customary. so they are ok to be phototaken n filmed in their work? y can't the additional photographer be captured as well then?

i've shoot at another fren's wedding b4 and i noe my rights. i alwaz stand behind the main photographer and videographer to prevent blocking their angle. and at the same time i'm shooting at my own perspective. so i really dun understand y they wan to prevent others from shooting together with them?

are these hired photographers afraid that their work can't match the other "free" photographers in e same wedding event and have their reputation tarnished?

anyone has faced e same situation as me?

I understand where you are coming from.

However I do (as many have) a exclusivity clause to restrict other photographers, paid or unpaid, pro or amateur, photography students or teachers, etc. We meant no offense to photography enthusiasts (just like we all began as enthusiasts early on) but really it affects the quality of pictures due to the following:

Compete for space and angle
The pro wants to have the best spot and angle, so another amateur just occupy or block space in a fast moving AD. There is no time to tell the amateur to move away and also it risks straining the feelings (some amateur has bigger ego than the pros). The pro might be using a wide angle lens that wherever the amateur stands he is most likely still in the frame or blocking him. Having photographers with DSLR pointing around in pictures really affects the aestheticism of a good photojournalistic image.

Standing right behind the pro is quite pointless because you end up with the same shots and might block the back stepping pro.

Standing behind the pro or near also throws another problem of the photographed subjects' eyes going to your camera instead of the pro's, or worst in a group shot, eyes going in all directions.

Just like on a wedding banquet, if you are a cook, whether amateur cook or a known chef of repute you dont step into the kitchen and say you wanna wipe up a dish for the B&G. If allowed the amateur cook would probably disrupt the whole cuisine and mess up the workflow and hours of preparation which the main chef had designed and done.

Thus the coined the term "Uncle Bob" in wedding circles worldwide for that is a solid and real problem encountered everywhere, more prominent now since DSLRs are selling so well.

And in reality, the pro's work is hard enough, he might already been trying to coordinate with the videographer (who faces the same problem) and if they already got a rapport its great, if not, the amateur just adds to the common problem.

You can bring your cam and shoot away, within your own friends is perfectly alright. But trying to get shots of the B&G will launch you into that conflict.

Hope this helps.

I don't bring cameras to friends wedding and they wonder why, I am glad to makan and drink instead. ;)
 

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sjackal

Senior Member
Jul 9, 2008
4,490
10
38
#9
have you ever heard the idiom of "too many cooks spoil the soup"?
And too many photogs spoilts the shoot.

I won't lose anything if these jokers keep blocking my views, the wedding couple is the bigger loser in the end, and they will remember how their friend "helped" in their wedding whenever they see the photos.
Exactly, for pros shooting weddings every weekends, they don't need to compete with the amatuers, ultimately its the wedding couple, sadly, that lost. And it is very sad.
 

#10
i would say that a lot of hobbyists thought that just an additional person wont damage our workflow...

an actual day wedding is not about creating a few "wow" pictures... it is more about consistantly producing quality pictures...

there is a reason why professionals are hired instead of letting friends trying their luck...

wedding is once in the life time... how many chances can a couple a let their friends to try their luck? While a hobbyist is trying to capture good pictures by testing around, the wedding maybe slowed and behind schedule...

i would say if a person is sensible, he/she would not hinder anyone in a friend's wedding for the sake of making pictures for his/her personal gratification or portfolio.
There are always avenues to be a second shooter in weddings. At least CS has forums where the users can publicise his/her services as a 2nd shooter :)

cheers... dont get heated up guys!!!!
 

JasonB

Deregistered
Jun 2, 2009
871
9
0
#11
Your friend turned you down and cite reasons about the hired photog and Videographer but have it ever occur to you that it's just a polite way and excuse to tell you nicely 'don't try it at my wedding please'. Fact is some couple spend months selecting a good wedding photog and pay good money for an established pro they aren't going to let any hobbyist with a camera ruin it. What makes you think they actually want you to shoot?

Also talk about matching images or competition, what makes you think you are even in the same league? No offense intended but I am reminded of a thread sometime ago where a eager CSer went against advice and went in with 2 bodies, huge lenses and all the shebangs, he returned weeks later with a 'wedding portfolio thread' of subpar pics asking for critique and when genuine views were posted he got defensive and gave excuses. Too late to regret.

And the way you worded about knowing 'your rights' come on man! It's about prople's big day not your whatever 'rights'!

Hi pple,

i'm just a hobbist and amature photographer.

recently i volunteered myself to tag along with my fren's wedding to help him take pictures of his actual day but he turned down my help as his hired photographer and videographer advised him not to have any additional photographer to be in his actual day.

the reason cited by his hired photographer and videographer claimed that they want to avoid filming and capturing the additional photographer in their photography n videography to prevent "spoiling" their work.

i'm really puzzled of their claim and my fren actual buy their idea. :dunno: since is his big day and i got to respect his decision.

so what's wrong to film another photographer inside their work? there are other relatives or frens will be taking photos or filming as well during the actual day customary. so they are ok to be phototaken n filmed in their work? y can't the additional photographer be captured as well then?

i've shoot at another fren's wedding b4 and i noe my rights. i alwaz stand behind the main photographer and videographer to prevent blocking their angle. and at the same time i'm shooting at my own perspective. so i really dun understand y they wan to prevent others from shooting together with them?

are these hired photographers afraid that their work can't match the other "free" photographers in e same wedding event and have their reputation tarnished?

anyone has faced e same situation as me?
 

2100

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2004
3,591
0
0
48
#12
Maybe we branch this discussion towards another direction.

Actually I let hobbyists shoot with me, no issue. Problem is that we move that fast, that once I really bumped into one of the hobbyist who is shadowing me, so much so that I made his mouth and eyesballs bleed (the whites were bleeding). I was taking a low shot and the bugger was above me. I just jumped up and lost balance backwards as I was chasing the B&G fast. Whacked into his cam which is just at his face. BAM!

Scared like s***, coz really bleeding profusely. Anyway my head/skull also painful lah....

Another time was between me and another pro VG. He was taking a low shot and I was shooting some distance. Was chimping and I ran over him. Both fell and his cam nearly touched the ground. But ok lah....no injuries this time round.

Just today I physically stepped on the toes of another jiemei. Had to apologise many times. Coz really scared of complaints.

Luckily my clause/FAQ got more or less cover this. And actually I will add in "I would not be responsible for dropping any guests cameras and reimbursing them". Short and sweet, usually couples won't notice, but seriously that covers your arse. I have one true case in which my VG pal dropped the cam and the guest really wanted him to pay.

Of course hobbyists have their rights and a very advanced hobbyists with *good PP skills* and with good cam/ all the cool lenses like a 135/2, 24/1.4 armament and relieved of the stress/responsibility of covering all the standard shots + squeeze in PJ shots, probably the hobbyist can even get better pictures than most of the < 1.5k pros working OMO, shd not be an issue. But why would you do that? I know I overheard some hobbyists even proclaiming amongst themselves that they get better pix, and after seeing their work yep I'd agree that they shoot better than me. But end of the day, the bottomline, I am only collecting my pay from working hard, its bread and better for me. Not sure why are there such a**es around. :dunno:

Anyway, if the hobbyists really knows his rights, for me at least, I will let him exercise his rights. I just get my pay at the end of the day, for I have already explained clearly to the couple that not everything is perfect. And if its due to hobbyists, I just guide nicely, and if really cannot I just shoot with all the extra stuff. But no complaints later hor.... :)
 

fotoudavid

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2005
2,157
3
38
#13
I hate many shooters in a wedding, spoil some of my shots as they will always come in front my angles.....

once, think few months ago, i have to tell politely to another brother of the bride, who have a dslr, to walk faster as he was actually always stay just ahead of the couple......... like all angles must also cover, low, high, side etc etc..... like he was the ultra main photographer...
 

Sep 17, 2008
3,656
0
0
#14
I understand where you are coming from.

I don't bring cameras to friends wedding and they wonder why, I am glad to makan and drink instead. ;)
same here. never bring dslr. maybe compact to camwhore a bit :sweat:
 

snowspeeder

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2004
3,671
0
36
www.themenatwork.com
#15
I once shot a wedding couple who was marching into the aisle. Then there was a hobbyist gentlemen (in his 50s) using a dslr just stood near me to shoot. The couple was walking into the ballroom and me and the videographer had to shoot and reposition by moving backwards quickly. The man was moving too slow for me, and as the music was quite loud, I had to raise my voice to say "MOVE!!". Think he heard it loud and clear cos after the march in...he went back to his seat and did not use the camera for the rest of the nite.
 

nedy77

New Member
Jun 21, 2005
999
0
0
#17
Dear Threadstarter and all other 2nd/3rd/4th/5th photographers.

Before I started wedding photography, I used to think like you: another photographer will do no harm. I was SO WRONG....

So many times I had other photographers get in my way. And although I have "the right" to ask them to get out of my way, it's simply not possible to go tell everyone the same thing when the important moments like the exchange of rings and kissing the bride(which last only a few seconds).

I have had a groom's friend with a pro dslr and huge flashgun with big difusser/reflector and his huge reflector got into a few of my frames.

So TS, do your friend a favour. Let the pros do their work properly. :)
 

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2100

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2004
3,591
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0
48
#18
Anyway I have to say this, I'd think most pros esp those shooting quite a fair number of weddings, usually have no ego one. I am using a D70, D200 and D90. What ego do i have? Prob about 30-50% of the advanced amateurs have much better cams than me.
Lenses also, I shoot with a lowly Sigma 30/1.4 and Sigma 17-50/2.8 and 85/1.8. This month Oct I have 12 shoots, in that would be 3 or 4 ROMs I can't remember. Just came back today from one half of a AD (split day), afternoon ROM and evening ROM. 23 Oct mah..... For the amateurs hobbyists, do you really know what 23 Oct 2010 means?

But what the amateurs do not have to answer for is the responsbility of churning out reliably decent pix wedding after wedding after wedding. If there are good/excellent pix, then good, I hope to give all I can to my clients. But sometimes really its not possible - you can just hope that the clients are the chin-chye type (usually are, luckily).

Just last week, my VG pal was held up due to the Express not rendering properly. Backup VG arrived 5 mins late, I am very sure of that, 2035h as I got timestamp in my pix taking the montage going off at 2038h. But yesterday I was shooting with the partner, sure enough the complaint came in. 5 mins times all the several hundred guests waiting in the ballroom. What to do, there is only one thing which you can do. (don't wanna spell out)

3 weeks ago and 1 week ago, diarrohea and vomitting just before the wedding. Weak like hell, still shoot, its my responsiblity. Now also a bit of running nose, but gonna be sleeping. VG sick for weeks, still shoot. Its a tiring job esp with all the early hours, you get 3-4 hrs of sleep consecutive days. And don't compare say a director travelling between countries preparing documents etc. I can assure you this is much more tiring physically. Haze still continue shoot outdoor dude run here run there.

For amateurs, just shoot once, wah...tired ah tired ah. After that PP nice, HUAT. Pros suck. If late 5 mins, no problemo....still can continue churn out good pix....responsiblity not there.

And for those old birds shooter, ask them what 10-15 years ago, or even 6-7 years ago the couples how nice are they. Nowadays, 23-28 year youngsters, what are their demands, what are their rights which they clearly are aware, and what avenues do they have in case the PG/VG did a wee bit of wrong and if they are not happy how easily they can complain. This is so even if you are charging sub 1k, whack you till you are dead in the forums.
No $$ no problem, can still expect good stuff, just take advantage by just demanding to the very last bit.

So don't make it more difficult for us loh.....
 

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garagez

Senior Member
Dec 21, 2006
937
0
16
#19
part and parcel of wedding environmet, give way to main photographer or f*** off, i understand the main photographer works, alot of acrobatic need to be done, my younger brother married and some of his friend really don't understand the situation, told them nicely give way to the main photographer , not only paid , because he/she need to deliver the pictures and album, and the main photograher got the 1st say AT ALL TIMES
 

mariodoe

New Member
Jan 21, 2010
73
0
0
#20
Your friend turned you down and cite reasons about the hired photog and Videographer but have it ever occur to you that it's just a polite way and excuse to tell you nicely 'don't try it at my wedding please'. Fact is some couple spend months selecting a good wedding photog and pay good money for an established pro they aren't going to let any hobbyist with a camera ruin it. What makes you think they actually want you to shoot?

Also talk about matching images or competition, what makes you think you are even in the same league? No offense intended but I am reminded of a thread sometime ago where a eager CSer went against advice and went in with 2 bodies, huge lenses and all the shebangs, he returned weeks later with a 'wedding portfolio thread' of subpar pics asking for critique and when genuine views were posted he got defensive and gave excuses. Too late to regret.

And the way you worded about knowing 'your rights' come on man! It's about prople's big day not your whatever 'rights'!
hi pple,

really appreciate all the in-depth views and persectives from pro-photographers like Benjamin, SK, sjackal, nerdy77 and 2100. your kind explanation enlighten me greatly on the tough job of a wedding photographer. many thanks!

well, i believed my initial ignorant has ignite some burning emotion and critical feedbacks from jasonB. i'm apologetic if my comments have offended you in any way.

do let me position myself better to clear all misconceptions on me by jasonB.

1) i've never said i'm expectionally great in photography and can match the hired pro out there in my post. i would have volunteer my service long before my fren has even approach his wedding photographer right? i noe where my ability lies and that's y i'm trying to learn by shooting more frequently as a background photographer.

2) i'm sorry i've inappropiately phrase my sentence - "i noe my rights", i'm trying to say that i noe my own stance as a background photographer in not interfering the main photographer. i constantly keeping a look out if i'm blocking his view or positioning during the whole event. so i'm not stating i've my own "rights" in other's pple wedding. i'm still a sensible person.

3) being a self-taught amateur, i'm just sincerely sourcing any opportunity to polish my skills. so i dun understand why you are so critical about me? did i hurt your pride as a pro-photographer? maybe it will be good if you could share with us your works, so we can learn from you too? thanks in advance!

4) lastly, i'm just trying to understand the viewpoints from the pro-photographers about having additional photographer in the AD photoshooting. i'm glad and appreciative to receive many valuable views from the rest. nonetheless, i'm thankful for your reply which let me realize how others had viewed me so negatively.
 

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