Comments directed to models, why not.

[Deadpoet]

I started this threat so that we won't OT'ed Cannonised's XMM thread to death.

I am replying to nightmare, (this is the thread http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=380380) I disagree with his logic, I disagree with his reasonings.

And let's try to be civilized for once when discussing/debating/arguing about something or anything.

firstly - they are fair game - but when the model posts it up, but commenting on the things that the photographer cannot control, i.e. looks (at least to a certain extent, bar plastic surgery, which i think you agree is drastic) is at best akin to me posting up a picture that you had taken and letting people comment on it. this is a photographic forums, if you want comments on your model's looks and not photography, post up the pictures on hwz.

obviously when it is a male there will be less countercomments. i think it is only fair to say that age is not such a sensitive issue with males. as to whether this should be the case, that is not the point here. if it is indeed the photographer's fault that the model look auntie, i.e. he didn't correct inappropriate styling, he shot her from a very unflattering angle, then say it is the photographer's fault. this is a photographer asking for critique here, he did not come here to show off how pretty his model is. i'm sure you of all people would agree that whether a model is auntie or not in reality, while extremely subjective, has nothing to do with photography.

well, if the ballerina is clearly not fat, but the photographer makes her look fat, then you are more than free to comment on it. if the ballerina is fat, and the photographer presents reality, then say "fat", got what use? that's a waste of your calories and time in typing out something that we all already know. why not just add in that "this is a picture of a ballerina and it is a fat ballerina at that."?

Totally disagree with you.

A model, who agreed to have his or her pictures taken and to allow it to be posted in public, or even private, it's part of the package, there will be comments and criticism that are directed at the model himself or herself. If cannot stand it, don't model. Using your logic, we actually should not even praise the model. I see lots of comments and praises on the models, but this is a photography forum, we shouldn't be doing that, right?

Worst among your logic is regarding male models. Why this sudden urge by so many on this forum to run to the defense of some model whom they really have no idea who she is, let alone know or befriended. This is absurd.

Btw, have you ever thought, it might actually be the photographers fault. The camera can add kilos or years to a body or face. So, have you even given this any thought, that the "auntie" comment, or other not flattering comment regarding the model, in this thread and others, were in fact directed at the photographer?

 

[night86mare]

Totally disagree with you.

A model, who agreed to have his or her pictures taken and to allow it to be posted in public, or even private, it's part of the package, there will be comments and criticism that are directed at the model himself or herself. If cannot stand it, don't model. Using your logic, we actually should not even praise the model. I see lots of comments and praises on the models, but this is a photography forum, we shouldn't be doing that, right?

Worst among your logic is regarding male models. Why this sudden urge by so many on this forum to run to the defense of some model whom they really have no idea who she is, let alone know or befriended. This is absurd.

Btw, have you ever thought, it might actually be the photographers fault. The camera can add kilos or years to a body or face. So, have you even given this any thought, that the "auntie" comment, or other not flattering comment regarding the model, in this thread and others, were in fact directed at the photographer?

oh, we shouldn't be praising the model's looks what, whatever gave you the idea that i advocated that? in fact, if i am a photographer, and i posted up my photographs of model, then all the comments is "wa model very pretty", i would be very depressed, no one cares anything about my photography skill, they just want to nosebleed.

i don't photograph people, but i think the same applies to landscapes. if i post up pictures of a sunset and all that i get is "wa, bad sunset" or "wa, beautiful sunset".. for the first, won't you think that if the sunset is mediocre in the first place, you shouldn't be shooting; or if it is actually not so mediocre, then you should have done better? for the last, the same logic as the first paragraph applies.

my "logic regarding male models" is certainly, i admit to a certain degree, devoid of logic, if you must put it that way. but it is certainly a more realistic view of life than yours. i think what you're driving at is the perceived double standard, but fact is fact, if forumers tend to be generally male, and tend to be nosebleeders, then i think you will see a lot of this than a lot of your scenario. accepting reality might not be equivalent to embracing logic, no?

to be fair, if i see any comments about male model that have nothing to do with photography i would remark something on it too. i mean, for example, if someone commented in tungtong's nude thread that the male model "not buff enough", a bit out of point, no? also, there is another note that after all, the model happens to be a user here, as clearly shown. i would like to think that while it may be slightly hypocritical to put restrictions on the airing of the view of what you think for another in clear visbility in these forums, you won't go up to a colleague or a classmate (even though you don't know them) and say, "eh, you very aunty".. likewise applies here.

for your last paragraph, i thought i have been making this point all along - that any comment, if the person feels that way, should be directed AT THE PHOTOGRAPHER. in the isolated case in canonised thread, i think it was quite clear, along with later clarifications from yamapi that he was directing his comments at the model. moreover, "fat", "add kilos" - all these are descriptive, i think the word "auntie" , whether warranted or not, tends to be directed at the model rather than the photographer.

the issue here, and i stress, is that comments should always be made with regards to what the photographer can control, and directed at the photographer. saying that just because a model has agreed to a shoot means that she is open to any frivolous comment is like saying that you are in approval of a comment in any p&p thread here directed at the model's posession of a mole, or any bodily blemish. well, certainly making such a comment would be 100% factual, but if the mole or blemish looks OUT OF PLACE, then shouldn't it be attributed to the photographer's laziness at pping it properly (since such is alright) rather than the fault of the model?

with all due respect, perhaps i have very skewed views of photography, majority of my subject involve landscapes or nature where you cannot exactly even direct the subject to do this or that, hence i find that if a picture is no good, every fault tends to lie with the photographer. since if the picture is not good (and he can see it) even because of the subject then he should not have posted it in the first place.

 

[Sion]

oh, we shouldn't be praising the model's looks what, whatever gave you the idea that i advocated that? in fact, if i am a photographer, and i posted up my photographs of model, then all the comments is "wa model very pretty", i would be very depressed, no one cares anything about my photography skill, they just want to nosebleed.

i don't photograph people, but i think the same applies to landscapes. if i post up pictures of a sunset and all that i get is "wa, bad sunset" or "wa, beautiful sunset".. for the first, won't you think that if the sunset is mediocre in the first place, you shouldn't be shooting; or if it is actually not so mediocre, then you should have done better? for the last, the same logic as the first paragraph applies.

my "logic regarding male models" is certainly, i admit to a certain degree, devoid of logic, if you must put it that way. but it is certainly a more realistic view of life than yours. i think what you're driving at is the perceived double standard, but fact is fact, if forumers tend to be generally male, and tend to be nosebleeders, then i think you will see a lot of this than a lot of your scenario. accepting reality might not be equivalent to embracing logic, no?

to be fair, if i see any comments about male model that have nothing to do with photography i would remark something on it too. i mean, for example, if someone commented in tungtong's nude thread that the male model "not buff enough", a bit out of point, no? also, there is another note that after all, the model happens to be a user here, as clearly shown. i would like to think that while it may be slightly hypocritical to put restrictions on the airing of the view of what you think for another in clear visbility in these forums, you won't go up to a colleague or a classmate (even though you don't know them) and say, "eh, you very aunty".. likewise applies here.

for your last paragraph, i thought i have been making this point all along - that any comment, if the person feels that way, should be directed AT THE PHOTOGRAPHER. in the isolated case in canonised thread, i think it was quite clear, along with later clarifications from yamapi that he was directing his comments at the model. moreover, "fat", "add kilos" - all these are descriptive, i think the word "auntie" , whether warranted or not, tends to be directed at the model rather than the photographer.

the issue here, and i stress, is that comments should always be made with regards to what the photographer can control, and directed at the photographer. saying that just because a model has agreed to a shoot means that she is open to any frivolous comment is like saying that you are in approval of a comment in any p&p thread here directed at the model's posession of a mole, or any bodily blemish. well, certainly making such a comment would be 100% factual, but if the mole or blemish looks OUT OF PLACE, then shouldn't it be attributed to the photographer's laziness at pping it properly (since such is alright) rather than the fault of the model?

with all due respect, perhaps i have very skewed views of photography, majority of my subject involve landscapes or nature where you cannot exactly even direct the subject to do this or that, hence i find that if a picture is no good, every fault tends to lie with the photographer. since if the picture is not good (and he can see it) even because of the subject then he should not have posted it in the first place.

You win liao!

 

[leejay]

What constitutes a photo? An item produced by a photographer and a model.

If you think along this line, DP wins.

 

[entropy_h]

I don't think this is about who wins.

First off, much respekt to both Deadpoet and night86mare. Both are great photographers in their own right.

I don't know either personally, so I'm not trying to take sides here.

But I have to agree with Deadpoet on this one. I think if a photo of a model is put up, and compliments can be directed at the model and he/she willingly accepts those compliments (I guess technically they can't reject them), he/she is also open to criticisms.

Of course, let's not go overboard here and say: "Wah, your model is damn f**king ugly man! See also my eyes turn sore!". That's just plain rude. Pretty obvious.

So I think the issue here is whether the guy in that previous post was being rude. It's all about maintaining a certain sense of civility. Specifically, the "auntie" comment was pretty harmless. Others were saying she looks young, others have the opinion that she doesn't. I don't think that's being rude.

 

[mattlock]

it is impossible to comment on a photograph without commenting on the CONTENT.
in this case the model is the content
What people comment on whether someone looks good or ugly or whether she's too skinny or too fat
just shows their personal preference

If you photograph people be prepared to get comments on the person being photographed.
Only Jesus can turn water into fine wine, so if your intention is to shoot pretty pictures of people, it helps to start off with a pretty model.

btw if someone says that the person looks "aunty", it is up to you to take it in a good way, a neutral way or a bad way
(I don't see anything wrong with that comment), plus it's a styling issue partly

 

[night86mare]

What constitutes a photo? An item produced by a photographer and a model.

so which is more important in production of the photograph?

the photographer, or the model?

i agree with mattlock's point that we are all human, no one is going so far as to say that any great photographer can turn a granny into perhaps a nosebleedworthy subject unless your audience is ahem, select.

i think it suffices to say that with any photograph, the limiting factor is hardly lying with the model. the great variance of standards from ANY mass shot is proof of that.

the issue here is never about winning, this is where everyone misses the point completely, as always; it's about the exchanging of ideas, which is why it should never be personal; and i never get personal until people start getting personal - i don't see why i should turn the cheek when slapped.

 

[night86mare]

If you photograph people be prepared to get comments on the person being photographed.

certainly, but this being a photographic forums, and i stress, the photographer isn't actually putting up a contest to see whose model is prettier, where does a comment like "model is auntie" come in? what purpose does it serve, what place does it have, and what constructive value does it have in being in existence here?

you of all people should know this, i enjoy some of your series precisely because it is of aunties, of grannies, more than just a pretty face. it is also shot well. there are probably 8 million photographs of poorly shot grannies and aunties; more than that i'm sure, i just threw in an arbitrarily huge number.

definitely, a model is part and parcel of a p&p photograph involving herself - and i'm more than certain that there are models who are more than willing to take positive or negative critique on themselves. but that isn't quite the point is it? surely i'm not ringfencing or promoting the idea that models are above critique, but the point here is that this is not the time or place to do it, i think it is immensely rude to the photographer who's been posting up his work because while he can control certain factors, and as you point out, maybe it is indeed related to styling - then won't you agree that a fairer and more measured comment would be that the "styling makes her look auntie"?

ever since i came into clubsnap i have seen many people (to be honest, dp is one of them) posting that "this is not the model's fault, this is the photographer's fault", and this is my point here. and i must say i am curious about why deadpoet is the first one to take issue here. after all, he seems to be an advocate of the idea that how any photograph turns out is ultimately still controlled by the photographer. opening up avenues whereby you can just simply point the finger at the model is ludicrous to me, it's like saying that if i take an extremely horribly done landscape photograph it is the land's fault, not mine. but i can DO things to improve what the output is like; and if the output is HORRIBLE no matter what i do, then perhaps i should not even keep the photograph, and trash it like dp always loves to say. :devil: so this is why i think all comments with regards to model should be off-limits, if she looks tired, then maybe the photographer should take the shots and not post them because they are not good. ultimately opening the table to model comments seems like a convenient excuse to breed a mentality where photographers can just blame models for any of their shortcomings.

next up:

"bro, your photograph, too much depth of field, shoot with wider aperture."

"aiya not my fault la, the model wear until like that, must shoot with more background!"

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

 

[night86mare]

I don't think this is about who wins.

So I think the issue here is whether the guy in that previous post was being rude. It's all about maintaining a certain sense of civility. Specifically, the "auntie" comment was pretty harmless. Others were saying she looks young, others have the opinion that she doesn't. I don't think that's being rude.

i think it all boils down to the point whether you would define "auntie" as a derogatory term.

what do you think? i'm thinking, that 80% of the females i know would view it as such.

 

[juste_millieu]

sometimes the model looks aunty or uncle is cause by
1.the photographer... incorrect angle or photoshop skills...
2.the model... too tired to pose... or even no mood...

no all photographers will comments on the model... but i think as a photographer, we should accept any comments whether it is the photography skills, photoshop skills or the model...

nothing wrong with comments, accept it... :bsmilie:

time to go off.... have a nice day ahead... :bsmilie:

 

[Canonised]

A comment directed at a model in an image is justified if it can pass the following tests:
1. objective
2. repute
3. civility

The "aunty" comment on my xmm is unacceptable to me because::nono:

1. the motive was simply mischievous and the agenda was wickedness and revengeful since I knew about the last confrontation between the model and the poster. For a negative comment to be welcomed, it has to, at the very least be constructive in meaning. If he has said something like, "the photographer's style has resulted that the young model looks too matured or aged, and may I suggest that the photographer/model should ......... ", etc.... then I would gladly accepted it,

2. the repute of the commentator ..... any active members/mods here can easily attest on his mischievous repute here, hence it would not have contributed anything good but will attract only conflicting comments, and

3. it's not civil to call a 16+ yo pretty teenager an aunty lookalike, especially when she is "under my care" in my thread .... even though, she didn't mind, but I do, out of respect for a friend.

 

[zac08]

I'm not along with the auntie comment here. But I believe the model has to do their part in their job as well...

If a top model shows up at a job with puffy eyes, dark eye circles and other problems which will affect the pictures taken on that day, is that professional?

I believe that all parties have a role to play, be it photographer, model or MUA. How come we dun hear much about the MUAs? And we tend to jump to the defense of the model, just because they have a pretty face. Is that to be the culture here in CS? Or has that become a norm already?

:dunno:

 

[night86mare]

I'm not along with the auntie comment here. But I believe the model has to do their part in their job as well...

If a top model shows up at a job with puffy eyes, dark eye circles and other problems which will affect the pictures taken on that day, is that professional?

I believe that all parties have a role to play, be it photographer, model or MUA. How come we dun hear much about the MUAs? And we tend to jump to the defense of the model, just because they have a pretty face. Is that to be the culture here in CS? Or has that become a norm already?

:dunno:

no, it is not professional, but i do not see that problem in canonised thread. besides, then it is the photographer's prerogative to complain, if he never complain, and he t hinks the model is very fine with her puffy eyes and dark eye circles and he posts up panda pictures, then it is his problem as much as it is the model's. we are talking about an isolated case here, if you think that i have been doing what you have stated in the last paragraph, then unfortunately, i try my best not to become a GWC. :bsmilie:

 

[garou12]

A comment directed at a model in an image is justified if it can pass the following tests:
1. objective
2. repute
3. civility

The "aunty" comment on my xmm is unacceptable to me because::nono:

1. the motive was simply mischievous and the agenda was wickedness and revengeful since I knew about the last confrontation between the model and the poster. For a negative comment to be welcomed, it has to, at the very least be constructive in meaning. If he has said something like, "the photographer's style has resulted that the young model looks too matured or aged, and may I suggest that the photographer/model should ......... ", etc.... then I would gladly accepted it,

2. the repute of the commentator ..... any active members/mods here can easily attest on his mischievous repute here, hence it would not have contributed anything good but will attract only conflicting comments, and

3. it's not civil to call a 16+ yo pretty teenager an aunty lookalike, especially when she is "under my care" in my thread .... even though, she didn't mind, but I do, out of respect for a friend.

to be fair to him looking at the context i dun think he was saying it to be malicious but that's just my 2 cents.

 

[Canonised]

to be fair to him looking at the context i dun think he was saying it to be malicious but that's just my 2 cents.

if it it not malicious, do you accept that the comment is a fair statement to the model, especially it is printed in a public forum?

 

[garou12]

if it it not malicious, do you accept that the comment is a fair statement to the model, especially it is printed in a public forum?

yes because it is a PUBLIC forum. His choice of words in this case is quite tame considering what has been said in cs b4. but that's my 2 cents.

 

[entropy_h]

i think it all boils down to the point whether you would define "auntie" as a derogatory term.

what do you think? i'm thinking, that 80% of the females i know would view it as such.

It's definitely not a compliment, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's derogatory... But that's just me.

 

[Canonised]

yes because it is a PUBLIC forum. His choice of words in this case is quite tame considering what has been said in cs b4. but that's my 2 cents.

it doesn't make sense here.... just because one is used to calling #%$*&# names on others doesnt give him any right of justification to call another one a tamer name ....:dunno:
I think it is the receiver that you should consider .... ppl have different level of receiving.

like I said, it just happened that he called name on someone under my care, and I have to be fair to her and so i have to clarify. I am sure if he has called her worst name in HER thread, I dont think she would mind and do you think I would bother to react?

actually a simple retraction at that moment one realised that he was in the wrong place, saying the wrong thing would normalise the situation, but instead he kept coming back to justify his deeds.

So what fairness are you referring? :think: It was not my sole reaction, but a collective disapproval of his remarks.

 

[garou12]

it doesn't make sense here.... just because one is used to calling #%$*&# names on others doesnt give him any right of justification to call another one a tamer name ....:dunno:
I think it is the receiver that you should consider .... ppl have different level of receiving.

like I said, it just happened that he called name on someone under my care, and I have to be fair to her and so i have to clarify. I am sure if he has called her worst name in HER thread, I dont think she would mind and do you think I would bother to react?

actually a simple retraction at that moment one realised that he was in the wrong place, saying the wrong thing would normalise the situation, but instead he kept coming back to justify his deeds.

So what fairness are you referring? :think: It was not my sole reaction, but a collective disapproval of his remarks.

historically i'm not familiar enuff with what you've said about him so no comment there. But i do think you're being overprotective here of the model and overreacting. but again that's my 2 cents not looking to stir things up in case u might be thinking that, because i can't be bothered to be drawn into a debate on this when i have better things to do with my time as do you i'm sure. just ignore the "incident" and move on la.

 

[waileong]

The intent of not commenting on models in general is quite simple: they are what they are. If they are not pretty, it's not their fault, they weren't born pretty.

Hence the perception that it's not fair to comment on their looks.

However, if someone could be pretty but chose not to do so, eg dark eye circles, poor dress sense, eyebags, poor makeup, etc. then I don't see why one can't comment.

And the model must understand, the comment is not about her being ugly, it's about her lack of dress sense, her styling, her professionalism as a model.

An ugly person will always be ugly. She knows it, your comment won't change anything, it's a waste of time.

However, comments about styling should be made as it is directed as much at the photographer as it is at the model.

It's definitely not a compliment, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's derogatory... But that's just me.