ClubSNAP is no longer a photography site

[sfhuang]

Here's something I wanted to post for a long time now, but have been hesitant to do so because I anticipate a lot of flames that will come my way. But anyway after browsing the workshops forum today, I've had it. Here goes.

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When ClubSNAP first started, we had folks like chngpe01 and tomshen posting fabulous, breath-taking shots every other week for all of us to marvel at, critique on and learn from. We also had some talented members who took critique in the right stride and made huge improvements in their art over time. Those were the days when I felt that this WAS the photography forum to be in, and the standard of photography here WAS comparable to other forums. I even took part in numerous photo workshops/outings organized by fellow members in the spirit of sharing experience and social networking. I even got to make some endearing friendships with several members here (you know who you are).

But look at what the forum has become today. It is more a classified ads site than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the Buy & Sell forum. It's a great place to trade equipment and the recent moves by ClubSNAP admin to regulate the threads are extremely commendable. But what I am against are the blatant, loud and annoying advertisements in the workshops forum. If all these courses were organized by fellow ClubSNAP members (or more specifically, amateurs) I have no objections. A lot of commercial photographers are coming here to make free advertisements. This really irks me. If the ad posters post these ads in the spirit of learning together and they can make a little coffee money out of it, why not. But if it's just for pure commercial interests (no longer coffee money), I say GO AWAY.

I am also sad that the standard of photography here is nowhere comparable to those I see at PBase. It seems odd that the humongously large number of members in this forum cannot even compete with PBase standard? (I'm not even talking about those top standard pics) Makes me wonder what those rich fellows here who seem to have the most expensive of equipment, lenses etc buy them for. Which brings me to what the equipment forums have become.

I would say that the equipment forums now belong to a handful of so-called photographers who are probably interested in photography as a hobby for spending money and building personal ego but not interested in the art per se. This saddens me as it makes me wonder if ClubSNAP is a tech forum (like HWZ) or is it a photography forum. I tend to think it has become the former.

For me at least, I will always have fond memories of ClubSNAP as the photography forum that it was, the nice people I've met here. But henceforth I'm probably only going to post or surf here when I have a WTS or WTB.

sfhuang.

 

[Darren]

Hi sfhuang,

Greatly appreciate your frank and I think very honest feedback on what you feel ClubSNAP has become today.

We are indeed aware of the evolution of the forums and what it represents today, and we are taking steps to inject more relevant photography-related, member-initiated and member-oriented developments in the very near future.

As for the commercial aspect of the forums (commercial studio, photography tutorials), its something that we have had discussions about and will definitely look very closely into.

Ultimately, we believe that the success of the forums lie in the hands of the members - when the seasoned forum member leads by example for the newbies to follow, and in turn, the newbies will be able to pass on to others - and for all to show tolerance and patience towards others.

We welcome other feedback from members as this is as much your forum as it is ours, and we can only improve together.

 

[binbeto]

sfhuang,

I echoed your observation. If you look closely, we still have quite a number of pictures posted and critique.

However, the large amount of B&S, product and technical discussion has ballooned such that the number of pictures posted seem insignificant.

Actually, I do realised a drop in photo quality posted. Where has all the good pictures gone?

 

[icebooke]

I would also like to add a little to this:

I used to watch fascinated as people on this forum created beautiful and sometimes inspiring images here. Recently however, there seems to be a parallel of the kind of posts here as those in DPReview. More and more people asking about technical issues or image quality based on equipment. Sometimes I respond if I feel it may help other people learning or making a good first decision on equipment, but mostly I felt like they were merely measurebators trying to elicit information about equipment for the sake of enjoying seing which numbers best represent equipment size and envy; like as if that really helps you make better photographs.

I find the number of people obsessed with equipment envy is increasing to that in the forums catering to computer enthusiasts, car/auto, planes, and the like.
There is little wonder then that most members here are males, and they really enjoy comparing the size of their equipment with others.

Whether this is symptomatic of the shift into digital photography, or a result of people lapping up the marketing milk fed to them by camera manufacturers today, is not so clear, but what is certain is this: more and more equipment talk and purchases and upgrades and sales on this forum, less of pure photographic discussions.

 

[StreetShooter]

I continue to post pictures whenever I take nice ones which I think are worth sharing. Just that time is short nowadays and I go out less often.

May I suggest (Attention: Admin) a "No words" category in the Galleries section, in the vein of the Words / No words postings to be found in the Leica forum on photo.net. Anyone can start with a topic (eg "Rush hour") and start with their own picture, then anyone can post their pictures to that thread, which are related to that particular topic. We can even make it a rule that no comments are allowed on the pictures posted - so those hoping for comments will not be disappointed, and those too thin-skinned to accept critique will not be offended. Just pictures. It will be an interactive type of thing - your photos and my photos. I think this will stimulate posting of photos.

The reason why Pbase has more photos is because you can upload the photos there directly, whereas in CS you need to have a place to put the photos and then link the picture. I can understand why the Admin does not want to provide free storage space - it can easily get out of control, as with aything offered for free. I would encourage those serious about posting photos to get a CS account. It's a good and cheap deal, and you get to support CS at the same time!

If someone is interested only in the posted photos without wading through all the B&S BS, they can always go directly to the Galleries section of CS, instead of the New Daily Posts. The forum is organised into different sections for a reason. You will find that the Macros and Nature sections are still going strong, with many excellent posts. I DO wish there were more street shots, but that's just me.

_________________
PowerBook G5 3GHz
1D Mk II
Leica MP
Sinar F

 

[sfhuang]

Streetshooter, that's an excellent idea. Hope it comes true.

 

[LimCB]

If you have a B/S section, then let others B/S as they wish. What's wrong? If you have different gear sections setup, then people with gear interests will talk about gears in those sections. Again, what's wrong?

 

[student]

I joined CS last month, hoping to learn and share.

While every forum can be a mean to learn and share, I am in full agreement with sfhuang's observations.

CS must chart its own direction, and it is not alltogether true to say that the success lies in the hands of the members. The admin must set the direction. I regularly look at www.largeformatphotography.info. The "owner' of this website for example forbid any trading including repeated announcements of paid workshops. It is now up to the members whether this is palatable or not. If not, then they can go elsewhere!

I was accused once in CS of trying to "solicit" students, when it was never the case. That misunderstanding was resolved. But somebody else thought that paid workshops should pay CS to advertise their workshops, and I thot that that was not a bad idea. It was brought up that eventually the cost of workshops might go up if advertisement fees are imposed. Not a unreasonable assumption. So CS will have to decide whether what directions should be taken for the greater benefit of most of CS members.

There will always an evolution in direction, but the forum's admin should keep a tight rein on the direction CS is taking. You have to decide what is important. To cater to all interests is a recipe for disaster and a "non-identity". Otherwise, sincere CSers like sfhuang might be driven to stop contributing.

 

[sfhuang]

Hi sfhuang,

Greatly appreciate your frank and I think very honest feedback on what you feel ClubSNAP has become today.

We are indeed aware of the evolution of the forums and what it represents today, and we are taking steps to inject more relevant photography-related, member-initiated and member-oriented developments in the very near future.

As for the commercial aspect of the forums (commercial studio, photography tutorials), its something that we have had discussions about and will definitely look very closely into.

Ultimately, we believe that the success of the forums lie in the hands of the members - when the seasoned forum member leads by example for the newbies to follow, and in turn, the newbies will be able to pass on to others - and for all to show tolerance and patience towards others.

We welcome other feedback from members as this is as much your forum as it is ours, and we can only improve together.

Thanks Darren, hope we can improve ClubSNAP and restore its photographic vibrancy.

 

[foxtwo]

Maybe it's a case of more amateurs posting for critique than good photographers posting, so it feels like there is a drop in quality?

Comparing Clubsnap with Pbase is a little unfair. Pbase seems more international. What's the ratio of members of diverse nationalities in CS? :dunno: A little extreme to pit amateurs from Singapore vs amateurs from rest-of-the-world....

 

[Royce]

I agree with some of the sentiments of the OP. Personally what would resolve a lot of my issues would be the ability to customise the 'New Daily Posts'. Then those forums that I'm not interested in would automatically be filtered.

I've tried using Advanced Search - ie. selected the forums I'm interested in a search for a wildcard - but you cannot search if all you enter is a wildcard.

Admins, any chance to have a facility to customise the New Daily Posts to user's own preferences?

 

[ed9119]

without CS its very unlikely most of these organizers will ever get the numbers to make these events financially viable.

well, CS should think about it carefully. Why not just charge for advertising of workshops/seminars/events that generate revenue for the event organizer and in return give them Banner space on front page? and only foc events get to advertise their events for free?

the funding generated can be used in ways to promote the hobby?

 

[binbeto]

well, CS should think about it carefully. Why not just charge for advertising of workshops/seminars/events that generate revenue for the event organizer and in return give them Banner space on front page? and only foc events get to advertise their events for free?

the funding generated can be used in ways to promote the hobby?

Perhaps some of the fund could be used to pay for the "free" hosting for member?

 

[espn]

I am also sad that the standard of photography here is nowhere comparable to those I see at PBase. It seems odd that the humongously large number of members in this forum cannot even compete with PBase standard? (I'm not even talking about those top standard pics) Makes me wonder what those rich fellows here who seem to have the most expensive of equipment, lenses etc buy them for. Which brings me to what the equipment forums have become.

I would say that the equipment forums now belong to a handful of so-called photographers who are probably interested in photography as a hobby for spending money and building personal ego but not interested in the art per se. This saddens me as it makes me wonder if ClubSNAP is a tech forum (like HWZ) or is it a photography forum. I tend to think it has become the former.

Care to define PBase standard? I don't know, but I do see quality shots once a while, simple perhaps, but they do work, sometimes not perhaps. What's this with comparing? If you find the shots aren't up to par, comment & critique! It's going to help the poster, isn't it? We're not here just to admire and go "WOW", "nice", ":thumbsup:" are we?

Understanding a camera and the way it works are part of everyday life, just like you'd find out how a CD-RW/DVD RW drive works before you wanna operate it, what's wrong with a bit of tech once a while?

 

[snappist]

some of the funds raise could be used to cover
1. the costs of running this website..
2. getting a part/full time administrator/mktg person for marketing this website/getting sponsors from rich photographic companies/organising competition/coordinating events/organising tours
3. buying prizes as incentives for photo competitions for best photo/best reviews
4. getting advertised in photo magazines
5. renting a Clubsnap gathering place/clubhouse/studio to be rented out to members on hourly basis
6. forming a new party called Clubsnap Action Party (CAP) with the aim of turning Singapore into a nation of photographers!
7. supporting two new members of parliament from clubsnap for the proposed new Clubsnap GRC that will include peninsula shopping center/peninsula plaza/funan center and sim lim square area in the next Singapore General Election

without CS its very unlikely most of these organizers will ever get the numbers to make these events financially viable.

well, CS should think about it carefully. Why not just charge for advertising of workshops/seminars/events that generate revenue for the event organizer and in return give them Banner space on front page? and only foc events get to advertise their events for free?

the funding generated can be used in ways to promote the hobby?

 

[espn]

Sorry to sound rude, but these sorts of posts tend to mean:

"Newbies, get lost, oldies stays"

And to me it means this should become something private and exclusive to those before the bloom of photography, especially looking through past older threads like 2 years and back, I noticed half of those that posted are no longer around. Is that what you want Clubsnap to be? I don't know. Changes are the only things that's constant.


Btw, don't mind me, I'm just being bored.

 

[Zerstorer]

Every now and then you will see some people complaining of what this forum has become and where it's headed...etc. If you really want change, be more proactive about it and lead by example.

If better shots are posted, others might be inspired to do uplift their standards; If better critiques are posted, others might be inspired to do likewise;If one doesn't take their own first step to stem the rot, what is the use of repeated reminders?

Don't mind me, but this is not the first horn sounded in so many years. What each member wishes to do with their forum participation is their own perogative. You can try to nudge others in the direction you wish, but you can't dictate what the place should or should not be.

For all its worth, a forum is simply a microcosm of society as a whole.

 

[Flyingpig]

I'm new here so i don't know how good the picture can be in the past, yes i agree espn, Newbies shoo, Pros welcome. But how am i going to improve my shooting without experts and skilled photographer giving me tips and comments.

Yesterday i had posted a thread with a photo that i wanted for comments and many of the active members had gave me great tips. Why did i join clupsnap? Because i wanted to learn from other people! In order to learn, also we need to show them our photo see what's wrong with it.

If this Forum are going to be only for Skilled people, i think we, newbies are really going to step aside and see only pro's posting great picture. If the club has a rule like, Under photo galleries you cannot post inequality picture, and i guess for me i need a few years to produce good picture, aren't i going to look are people's photo or posting picture on Newbie's corner only?

I am a member on another site that is something like forum where all of the picture are really great, And if all the forum are going to compare which forum is the best? Where do we newbies go? But i think for those newbies that wanted comments on their pics, they should post on, example Newbies corner, then i think there's nothing wrong with it. For those experienced photoshooter, perhaps posting on other category.

Posting good picture is important, and i do agree that under the photo galleries, people should post more quality picture. As for new people on photograph, perhaps on Newbie's corner. I'll be really disappointed if we are going to have chance to post picture.

Recently there's a problem on, newbies posting irrelevant comments on certain topics, so it means we should not post comments on people's thread? Now it's on posting picture. What's next huh?

 

[blurblock]

Sfhuang, if this forums are only for photographers with standard of Milton H Greene ..... I wonder why are you here?

In my view, Pbase is a place where they show off their best pics, this is not only a place to show off, but a place to learn as well.

If you can't stand technicality of photography, don't bother to read it. If you can't stand B&S, don't visit it, if you can't stand newbies posting pictures, don't go into any forum, stay in Kopitiam and continue your everlasting moaning......

I prefer this site to Offstone somehow, partially due to it's virtually freedom to post bad pictures, only with bad pictures and comments will the poster and other reader may improve.

I am so sad SFhuang actually made this type of comment.....

 

[gooseberry]

Hmmm... interesting discussion - classic case of the changes taking place within an online community as it grows and takes on a much more diverse membership.

I am also sad that the standard of photography here is nowhere comparable to those I see at PBase. It seems odd that the humongously large number of members in this forum cannot even compete with PBase standard? (I'm not even talking about those top standard pics) Makes me wonder what those rich fellows here who seem to have the most expensive of equipment, lenses etc buy them for. Which brings me to what the equipment forums have become.

I would say that the equipment forums now belong to a handful of so-called photographers who are probably interested in photography as a hobby for spending money and building personal ego but not interested in the art per se. This saddens me as it makes me wonder if ClubSNAP is a tech forum (like HWZ) or is it a photography forum. I tend to think it has become the former.

While I personally would like to see more wonderful pictures posted as well; the comments above, whether this was intended or not, seem to come off as a bit elitist. I hope that's not what you meant, but that's the way it comes across when I read it.

ClubSNAP has grown a fair bit and is taking on a much more diverse group of people. Each member has their own reasons for why they are into photography - some do it for the "art", others do it as a hobby, others for their livelihood. Who is in a position to judge what someone else has an interest in and wants to discuss ? If a member wants to present their photos as a way of expressing themselves or sharing with other members or learn about new techniques - that's great. If another member wants to talk about equipment and learn about using things - that's fine too.

But henceforth I'm probably only going to post or surf here when I have a WTS or WTB.
sfhuang.

But by doing that, aren't you contributing to the things you are complaining about ? Reminds me of that song. Something about making changes for the better and "the man in the mirror..."